Why didn't Akira Toriyama just introduce Gogeta instead?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't believe in the "rage boost". It doesn't make any sense IMO. I mean what, they would get an even greater boost if they were lovers?

The way I see Rou Kaioshin's line is that Goku & Vegeta as rivals, they are equals (unlike him & the old witch, Kibito & Kaioshin, Goku & Gohan, Goku & Dende, and Goku & Mr. Satan). So, the extra boost is because they are better matches, not because they have a rivalry. Fusion can't have such an extra boost, because it forces the fighters to be equals. Potara & Namekian Assimilation are unpredictable because a fighter with BP of 1 million can merge with a fighter with BP of 5. Fusion requires them to be equals, making it a stable boost.

And the Potara are stated to be superior to Fusion, to the point that Goku & Gohan merged would be able to beat Gotenks Boo in base, while with Fusion, they should need to use Super Saiyan 3 or Ultimate (assuming they can use that one).

[Low Tone G]

I support Vegetto being in alll the cases superior to Gogeta just going with the fact Toriyama uses the best possible way in the world of DB. So in that case SSJ God was also better to use than to create Vegetto. In the Majin Buu saga an SSJ God couldn't have appeared because Vegeta wasn't pure and there were only 5 saiyans, and Tarble didn't exist not mention Pan.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta wasn't pure in BoG either. Super Saiyan God doesn't require pure-hearted Saiyans, just righteous Saiyans.

[Low Tone G]

Vegeta wasn't pure in BoG either. Super Saiyan God doesn't require pure-hearted Saiyans, just righteous Saiyans.

But the two words are not the same in this case? as in the japan dub it was "tadashi cocoro" which means pure heart! As I know it...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Not sure. But Vegeta can't be literally pure hearted.

[miguelnuva1]

No, math doesn't work like that. If Goten is a 1, and Goku is a 2, then if Fusion is, say, a x60 (it's stated that the result is dozens of times stronger, and that it gives a greater boost than Super Saiyan) multiplier, then Gotenks would be a x60, and Gogeta would be a 120. Still a x2 difference.

Your assuming Fusion is linear whistle your statement would be correct.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, math doesn't work like that. If Goten is a 1, and Goku is a 2, then if Fusion is, say, a x60 (it's stated that the result is dozens of times stronger, and that it gives a greater boost than Super Saiyan) multiplier, then Gotenks would be a x60, and Gogeta would be a 120. Still a x2 difference.

Your assuming Fusion is linear whistle your statement would be correct.

Yes, because it has specific requirements. The fighters must have similar size & power. So, why should the result be different in others?

[Rocketman]

Why wouldn't it?

[miguelnuva1]

No, math doesn't work like that. If Goten is a 1, and Goku is a 2, then if Fusion is, say, a x60 (it's stated that the result is dozens of times stronger, and that it gives a greater boost than Super Saiyan) multiplier, then Gotenks would be a x60, and Gogeta would be a 120. Still a x2 difference.

Your assuming Fusion is linear whistle your statement would be correct.

Yes, because it has specific requirements. The fighters must have similar size & power. So, why should the result be different in others?

Because Goten and Trunks increased their fighting power a little and Gotenks increased a lot. To me that means the more the fusion takes in the the more it spits out.

Example

Goten: 9
Trunks 10

Vegeta: 18
Goku 20

Gotenks: 81

Gogeta: 324

Goku and Vegeta are 2x Goten and Trunks but Gogeta is up to 4x Gotenks and that's with having them at 2x the boys. I have them at 3x the boys which makes Gogeta 9x Gotenks.

Gotenks
1
MSSJ 50
SSJ2 100
SSJ3 400

Gogeta
9
MSSJ 450
SSJ2 900
SSJ3 3600

Depeding on the numbers you use and if Gogeta gets a rival Boost Gogeta can beat Buuhan.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why wouldn't it?

Because like I said so many times, it has specific requirements. There is only one possible combination of powers because of that, not many different combinations like with the Potara or Namekian Assimilation.

Because Goten and Trunks increased their fighting power a little and Gotenks increased a lot. To me that means the more the fusion takes in the the more it spits out.

Example

Goten: 9
Trunks 10

Vegeta: 18
Goku 20

Gotenks: 81

Gogeta: 324

Goku and Vegeta are 2x Goten and Trunks but Gogeta is up to 4x Gotenks and that's with having them at 2x the boys. I have them at 3x the boys which makes Gogeta 9x Gotenks.

Gotenks
1
MSSJ 50
SSJ2 100
SSJ3 400

Gogeta
9
MSSJ 450
SSJ2 900
SSJ3 3600

Depeding on the numbers you use and if Gogeta gets a rival Boost Gogeta can beat Buuhan.

What exactly did you do there with the Fusion multiplier? Why did Gotenks get a x8 multiplier, and Gogeta got a x18?

And Gotenks is supposed to have gotten stronger because of the multiplier: If Goten went from 1 to 2 (1 unit increase), then Gotenks would have went from, say, 60 to 120 (60 units increase). Super Saiyan is stated to work the same way, and it's a stable multiplier.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

[DieHard]

Why wouldn't it?

Because piccolo implied so:

Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”

[miguelnuva1]

We don't have an official formula for fusion though.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

We don't have an official formula for fusion though.

We know it makes the result dozens of times stronger than the individual though. There is no reason to assume that the multiplier changes, since you can't get more skilled in doing Fusion (you either do it right and succeed, or you do it wrong and screw up), and the only combination of powers that is possible is the pair to have similar powers.

I mean, why would Goku & Vegeta be so special? What are Goten & Trunks doing wrong? I've asked these things so many times already, yet everyone avoids the answer like they pretend they don't hear.

[DieHard]

We have the following:

-Gotenks: tens of times stronger than goten and trunks
( SEG)

-Vegetto:goku and vegeta power levels multiplied
(anime databook)

-SS4 gogeta: tens of times stronger than SS4 goku and SS4 vegeta
(DBGT databook)

If SS4 Gogeta use the same"formula" you would think that it doesn't change,BUT that's DBGT,so it makes no difference in the manga.

In the MANGA Piccolo says training would be more effective when they fuse.And "tens of times" is vague,they could have just said 20 or 30 times right?Probably because it varies,for example before the training it was 20 times,and after the training 30 times (just examples).

[Puto]

I will add that 'tens of times' is often used in Japanese as an expression to just mean 'a lot', even when it's not literally 'tens of times'.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I will add that 'tens of times' is often used in Japanese as an expression to just mean 'a lot', even when it's not literally 'tens of times'.

Base Gotenks is implied to be stronger that the Super Saiyan kids individually in the manga, so it's literally tens of times.

[Gogeta8001]

We have the following:

-Gotenks: tens of times stronger than goten and trunks
( SEG)

-Vegetto:goku and vegeta power levels multiplied
(anime databook)

-SS4 gogeta: tens of times stronger than SS4 goku and SS4 vegeta
(DBGT databook)

If SS4 Gogeta use the same"formula" you would think that it doesn't change,BUT that's DBGT,so it makes no difference in the manga.

In the MANGA Piccolo says training would be more effective when they fuse.And "tens of times" is vague,they could have just said 20 or 30 times right?Probably because it varies,for example before the training it was 20 times,and after the training 30 times (just examples).

I agree with most things here except for Vegito being Goku X Vegeta. If such were true, Kibitoshin would be a god and would be able to one-shot Pure Buu like it was nothing. Also, it's coming from the same source that thinks SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu are stronger than Mystic Gohan and Super Buu, I wouldn't want to put much stock in all of that.

Base Gotenks is implied to be stronger that the Super Saiyan kids individually in the manga, so it's literally tens of times.

Adding on to this, Trunks feels that a Base Fusion between him and Goten would be enough to push Buu (the last Buu he sensed was Initial Super Buu @the Lookout) to a standstill. This was also after Piccolo completely lost hope for SSJ Gotenks before the RoSaT yet when he sees them again, he thinks they actually might have a chance against Buu.

[DieHard]

The SEG specifically talks about vegetto,so it may be different for kibitoshin for some reason.

Or maybe they just asked toriyama how fusion works,and he asnwered the simpliest way possible,with some inconsistencies.Which doesn't make it false,it's a plot-hole,but it's still true.

[Gogeta8001]

The SEG specifically talks about vegetto,so it may be different for kibitoshin for some reason.

Or maybe they just asked toriyama how fusion works,and he asnwered the simpliest way possible,with some inconsistencies.Which doesn't make it false,it's a plot-hole,but it's still true.

Still, having all that would result in Base Vegito being a crap ton stronger than Buuhan which is obviously invalid if Vegito needs to go SSJ ASAP in the manga.

The general rule of thumb for guidebooks is that their valid unless they contradict the original source (The Daiz saying M6 takes place in the Cell Games wait is a good example of this).

[sekzee]

We don't have an official formula for fusion though.

We know it makes the result dozens of times stronger than the individual though. There is no reason to assume that the multiplier changes, since you can't get more skilled in doing Fusion (you either do it right and succeed, or you do it wrong and screw up), and the only combination of powers that is possible is the pair to have similar powers.

I mean, why would Goku & Vegeta be so special? What are Goten & Trunks doing wrong? I've asked these things so many times already, yet everyone avoids the answer like they pretend they don't hear.

Just focus on this a little:

Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”

Let that sink in.

Even if Goku/Vegeta are only 2x stronger than the kids (doubtful; the gap should be greater), the resulting difference in the respective fusions would be huge.

I place very little relevance in the whole ROSAT incident. First, you are lead to believe that you must transform before you fuse. In the ROSAT, this was not the case. So anything Piccolo believed to be true is thrown out the window the moment Toriyama decided Gotenks can transform.