Vegeta the most evil?

[ABED]

Did I quote you? I don't remember, and I never intended to get into Porunga discussion.

[Zephyr]

Any evidence that Vegeta is a bad guy after he was said to finally be a good guy, and not just your own desire to have him labelled as such?

The fact that Vegeta was still going to hell after making that self sacrifice and not doing much else to add to his status of a good guy (in general sense) later on is my evidence.

I'm sorry, I see sacrificing things that you've held disturbingly dear to you throughout your entire life, multiple times in a day, for the sake of others, as a sign of goodness. The guy may have simply sacrificed his life before, but he still held onto his pride (fought Buu alone after being the main one responsible for letting him out). Sucking it up and working with Goku for the sake of everyone at the time of Fat Buu's release, seems like it would have been more selfless for Vegeta. This time, he had sacrificed his pride repeatedly and risked his soul's very existence. Pride's a very big thing to let go of Vegeta, and him being able to set that aside is a demonstration of great change, there. That's not something you'd just let go of, and walk away the same person entirely. Now you can ask why that matters in terms of morality, to which I'd reply that it apparently does, as that was the big significant change in Vegeta during this point in the story which preceded his, clearly stated, revised moral standing.

If you want to consider explicit statements insufficient, enough go right ahead, but don't pretend that what he did in the latter half of the Buu arc was "not much else" in terms of an objective measurement of moral action, because such measurement is impossible. We can talk about our own subjective, personal ideas for what constitutes a moral action, but that's not very useful in this specific conversation. Even every single bit of supplementary material which has shown Vegeta after this correlates perfectly with him being good now (namely BoG and GT), which you're of course free to disregard, but it shows that even Toei and Toriyama are under the impression that he was good now.

If you want to include the Kanzenban ending to your side of the argument, that's fine as well, but at that point we're cherry-picking extra-Tankobon material to suit our needs. But even if we allowed that, all Vegeta's comment there 10 years after the fact shows is that he still entertains the idea of being a rival. Nothing about world domination, nothing about mass murder or conspiracy. Nothing showing any sign of evil. If you want to include him hitting the guy at the 28th TB, I'm not seeing that as evil. Which, granted, brings in subjective definitions for what constitutes a moral action, on both sides here, but we can't really extrapolate much in terms of his moral standing based on the fact that he's still a short tempered grump when dealing with annoying weaklings.

[soulnova]

Had Raditz and Nappa been given the chance, I think it's believable that they could have been turned around (if you look at Vegeta in the Saiyan arc, it isn't believable that he could end up a family man and fighter for good). Raditz and Nappa were people with thoughts and feelings, who were simply in an immoral and criminal occupation, but Vegeta was made of dick.

This made my day. Thank you.

Yeah, I think that if the Z fighters had been strong enough to keep them in line for a while without killing them, they would have turned around much quicker than Vegeta. For them I think is a case of bad influence. Vegeta was a little bastard even as a child, so is not surprising it rubbed off with Raditz, while Nappa wouldn't dare to contradict him.

[hleV]

I'm sorry, I see sacrificing things that you've held disturbingly dear to you throughout your entire life, multiple times in a day, for the sake of others, as a sign of goodness. The guy may have simply sacrificed his life before, but he still held onto his pride (fought Buu alone after being the main one responsible for letting him out). Sucking it up and working with Goku for the sake of everyone at the time of Fat Buu's release, seems like it would have been more selfless for Vegeta. This time, he had sacrificed his pride repeatedly and risked his soul's very existence. Pride's a very big thing to let go of Vegeta, and him being able to set that aside is a demonstration of great change, there. That's not something you'd just let go of, and walk away the same person entirely. Now you can ask why that matters in terms of morality, to which I'd reply that it apparently does, as that was the big significant change in Vegeta during this point in the story which preceded his, clearly stated, revised moral standing.

If you want to consider explicit statements insufficient, enough go right ahead, but don't pretend that what he did in the latter half of the Buu arc was "not much else" in terms of an objective measurement of moral action, because such measurement is impossible. We can talk about our own subjective, personal ideas for what constitutes a moral action, but that's not very useful in this specific conversation. Even every single bit of supplementary material which has shown Vegeta after this correlates perfectly with him being good now (namely BoG and GT), which you're of course free to disregard, but it shows that even Toei and Toriyama are under the impression that he was good now.

If you want to include the Kanzenban ending to your side of the argument, that's fine as well, but at that point we're cherry-picking extra-Tankobon material to suit our needs. But even if we allowed that, all Vegeta's comment there 10 years after the fact shows is that he still entertains the idea of being a rival. Nothing about world domination, nothing about mass murder or conspiracy. Nothing showing any sign of evil. If you want to include him hitting the guy at the 28th TB, I'm not seeing that as evil. Which, granted, brings in subjective definitions for what constitutes a moral action, on both sides here, but we can't really extrapolate much in terms of his moral standing based on the fact that he's still a short tempered grump when dealing with annoying weaklings.

I should've stopped reading after the first sentence, but regrettably went through the whole thing.
Been writing and writing different things, but realized that I pretty much said everything that's needed to be said in my previous posts. Unless there's proof that Vegeta went through a change of heart after sacrificing himself (after which he was going to be considered evil by Enma Daio), I can do nothing but treat Porunga's definition of a "good guy" as being different from Enma Daio's.

I do have one other theory, though. I just checked the Strength Checker: when Enma Daio allows Vegeta to come back to the living world, Vegeta says something along the lines of "So you'll allow an evil-doer like me to go back?" Basically, the fact that Vegeta can be useful at saving the universe may've given him a universal status of a good guy, even though that's not what's in his heart. That would perfectly explain why Porunga revived a seemingly not that good of a guy.

[Zephyr]

Unless there's proof that Vegeta went through a change of heart after sacrificing himself (after which he was going to be considered evil by Enma Daio), I can do nothing but treat Porunga's definition of a "good guy" as being different from Enma Daio's.

So all of the other stuff that he did in the latter half of the Buu arc doesn't cut it in your book? We don't know if Porunga would have revived him if the wish was made right after he had sacrificed himself, and we don't know that Enma would have sent him to hell if he had died again during the final fight with Buu, so there's not a solid case that they have differing criteria. Also, when Vegeta referred to himself as an evil-doer, this was before he redeemed himself. That's fine though, we can agree to disagree, I've likewise said about that needs to be said.

[Attitudefan]

Unless there's proof that Vegeta went through a change of heart after sacrificing himself (after which he was going to be considered evil by Enma Daio), I can do nothing but treat Porunga's definition of a "good guy" as being different from Enma Daio's.

So all of the other stuff that he did in the latter half of the Buu arc doesn't cut it in your book? We don't know if Porunga would have revived him if the wish was made right after he had sacrificed himself, and we don't know that Enma would have sent him to hell if he had died again during the final fight with Buu, so there's not a solid case that they have differing criteria. Also, when Vegeta referred to himself as an evil-doer, this was before he redeemed himself. That's fine though, we can agree to disagree, I've likewise said about that needs to be said.

Nope. Vegeta never really had any good motives even after the second half, plus, how can you just forget the first half (which caused the second half to happen in the first place!!! ) Vegeta created the bad to happen and had to fix what he broke. That doesn't make him a good man.

But he was PURE evil for sure. Saiyans were evil but they are all raised that way in their society. Freeza and his family were evil, but they are too raised that way in their society. Cell and the Androids are created to be evil, not born, and someone taught them to be evil, to their master and their own bunch, they are "good". Buu and his masters were evil, but they as well, are influenced by an evil society to be evil. Doctor Gero loved his son, the Androids and the Ginyu Force even had "good" relationship with each other. All the villains are like that : They are bad for one side - and good for their own side. The immoral and bad society they were in are to blame. But Vegeta is a separated individual, a lone creature that consciously and pridefully disconnects himself from society, takes real enormous pride in being evil, then gets his pride wounded because he is put down by one guy of greater evil than him (Freeza, then Androids, then Cell, then Babidi) Kid Buu is said to be pure evil, but it appeared that he was not even capable of doing good things. Vegeta is a guy who was entirely capable of "good". but chose evil over it and repeatedly denied himself any "good". Consciousness is scarier that way. All due to pride. Thanks to his great pride, he was beyond every villain in DBZ, even the so-called pure evil Kid Buu, when it breaks down to being a self-centered kind of evil bastard, as someone said it here.

Yup, I think your evaluation of Vegeta is spot on and shouldn't be ignored.

[hleV]

So all of the other stuff that he did in the latter half of the Buu arc doesn't cut it in your book?

Nope, not at all. Most of it was because he's a Saiyan and just likes to fight strong opponents.

[RandomGuy96]

Where was it shown that the Ginyus cared for each other? Reccome and co didn't give much mind to Guldo after he died, Ginyu threatened to murder Jeice if he tried to interfere in his battle with Goku, and Jeice abandoned his wounded comrades to be killed by Vegeta.

[nhienphan2808]

Where was it shown that the Ginyus cared for each other? Reccome and co didn't give much mind to Guldo after he died, Ginyu threatened to murder Jeice if he tried to interfere in his battle with Goku, and Jeice abandoned his wounded comrades to be killed by Vegeta.

Did raditz care for his brother? That's the way their society is, they don't "care" for kin and comrades as we humans do, but that's just the influence of the society of war and killing. What the Ginyu have for each other can be considered a pleasant relationship in THEIR standards. Raditz killed his brother sure, but he still had hope for his comrades coming to him. The Ginyus had a fairly tight attachment between one another. What i meant here is the difference between Vegeta and all the others is there's NO STANDARD and NO ATTACHMENT to consider him "good". He's too evil to be a Saiyan, and even when you see him as "good" in Frieza's standard since he was his slave, there is his pride, and he hated Frieza for it.

[WittyUsername]

I think it's pretty clear that Freeza was meant to be more evil than Vegeta. That's why Toriyama had Vegeta join forces with the good guys to defeat him.

[nhienphan2808]

I think it's pretty clear that Freeza was meant to be more evil than Vegeta. That's why Toriyama had Vegeta join forces with the good guys to defeat him.

I think the other way around. Vegeta always helped the Z fighters defeat Frieza, Androids, Cell, Buu... not because he is less evil than these guys. He wanted to destroy them all because of selfish reasons and that is his pride, not his "good heart". The only reason he helped so much is because he's more, or rather, PURER evil than all the evil guys.

Funny everyone cheers for Vegeta in his fights with the Androids and Cell while he's clearly 9OOO% more evil than them all.

[ABED]

I think it's pretty clear that Freeza was meant to be more evil than Vegeta. That's why Toriyama had Vegeta join forces with the good guys to defeat him.

I think the other way around. Vegeta always helped the Z fighters defeat Freeza, Androids, Cell, Buu... not because he is less evil than these guys. He wanted to destroy them all because of selfish reasons and that is his pride, not his "good heart". The only reason he helped so much is because he's more, or rather, PURER evil than all the evil guys.

I don't follow the logic, he helps BECAUSE he's pure evil? It's like you discount the final battle of the series. By then, there's been a systemic change in Vegeta.

[nhienphan2808]

I think it's pretty clear that Freeza was meant to be more evil than Vegeta. That's why Toriyama had Vegeta join forces with the good guys to defeat him.

I think the other way around. Vegeta always helped the Z fighters defeat Freeza, Androids, Cell, Buu... not because he is less evil than these guys. He wanted to destroy them all because of selfish reasons and that is his pride, not his "good heart". The only reason he helped so much is because he's more, or rather, PURER evil than all the evil guys.

I don't follow the logic, he helps BECAUSE he's pure evil? It's like you discount the final battle of the series. By then, there's been a systemic change in Vegeta.

Sorry i don't know how to express it better (bad English) but please read my previous posts.

Saiyans were evil but they are all raised that way in their society. Freeza and his family were evil, but they are too raised that way in their society. Cell and the Androids are created to be evil, not born, and someone taught them to be evil, to their master and their own bunch, they are "good". Buu and his masters were evil, but they as well, are influenced by an evil society to be evil. Doctor Gero loved his son, the Androids and the Ginyu Force even had "good" relationship with each other. All the villains are like that : They are bad for one side - and good for their own side. The immoral and bad society they were in are to blame. But Vegeta is a separated individual, a lone creature that consciously and pridefully disconnects himself from society, takes real enormous pride in being evil, then gets his pride wounded because he is put down by one guy of greater evil than him (Freeza, then Androids, then Cell, then Babidi) Kid Buu is said to be pure evil, but it appeared that he was not even capable of doing good things. Vegeta is a guy who was entirely capable of "good". but chose evil over it and repeatedly denied himself any "good". Consciousness is scarier that way. All due to pride. Thanks to his great pride, he was beyond every villain in DBZ, even the so-called pure evil Kid Buu, when it breaks down to being a self-centered kind of evil bastard, as someone said it here.

[ABED]

I don't buy into the "blame society" thing, even in fiction.
Second, pride and arrogance are two completely different concepts.
I don't see how Freeza made any less of a choice to be who he was than Vegeta.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama said that Vegeta got less & less evil after the fateful night with Bulma. He is a completely good guy by the time of BoG.

Toriyama has no word on what happened in Dragon World since the release of Kanzenban to me. BOG didn't happen.

He is still the author, even if you don't like his recent works & ideas, and Vegeta was obviously becoming a better person through the manga.

[Attitudefan]

Except Vegeta even admits that his motives to become stronger which led to him becoming a Super Saiyan was a motive that was "pure, pure evil".

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Except Vegeta even admits that his motives to become stronger which led to him becoming a Super Saiyan was a motive that was "pure, pure evil".

I don't think it's a coincidence that he had a tranquil heart to transform after his night with Bulma. I believe that's when the change started to happen.

[superfunk]

I thought that line from the Toriyama interview about Vegeta's hurt pride was referring to the 7 year gap. He seems more determined in the 3 year gap, then when Gohan surpasses him in power his pride takes a huge blow. The 7 year gap is also when he starts a proper relationship with Bulma. Just a thought.

[ABED]

Except Vegeta even admits that his motives to become stronger which led to him becoming a Super Saiyan was a motive that was "pure, pure evil".

That comes off as puffery.

[hleV]

Toriyama said that Vegeta got less & less evil after the fateful night with Bulma. He is a completely good guy by the time of BoG.

Toriyama has no word on what happened in Dragon World since the release of Kanzenban to me. BOG didn't happen.

He is still the author, even if you don't like his recent works & ideas, and Vegeta was obviously becoming a better person through the manga.

I don't disregard what he says just because I don't like what he says. I disregard what he says because he doesn't know what the fuck is he talking about.