Watching DB series Japanese (1st time) COMPLETE

[ABED]

There was no destiny, and what home video release are you talking about?

Again, the Vegeta arc and Freeza arc are two separate arcs.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku's destiny to defeat Freeza & avenge the Saiyans was shown in Bardock's vision.

It's the Japanese Home Releases that divide Kai in 3 parts (Saiyan & Freeza arc, Artificial Humans & Cell arc, Majin Boo arc).

[ABED]

Goku's destiny to defeat Freeza & avenge the Saiyans was shown in Bardock's vision.

It's the Japanese Home Releases that divide Kai in 3 parts (Saiyan & Freeza arc, Artificial Humans & Cell arc, Majin Boo arc).

The Bardock story is anime only. And Goku doesn't avenge the Saiyans, they weren't good guys. He even says they paid for their sins. The one that Goku avenges is Kuririn and the Namekians. As Gaffer Tape points out, that beginning would make sense if Kai ended with Freeza's death, but it didn't. Having Goku's alien heritage spoiled in the same episode that it's revealed is redundantly redundant.

Again, the Freeza arc is separate. I have no idea if whoever's in charge thinks it's one story, or if they just split Kai more or less in half for the home video release.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The Bardock story is anime only.

And Kai is the anime.

Again, the Freeza arc is separate. I have no idea if whoever's in charge thinks it's one story, or if they just split Kai more or less in half for the home video release.

But the Saiyan & Freeza arcs are connected.

[ABED]

The Bardock story is anime only.

And Kai is the anime.

Again, the Freeza arc is separate. I have no idea if whoever's in charge thinks it's one story, or if they just split Kai more or less in half for the home video release.

But the Saiyan & Freeza arcs are connected.

My point was that it isn't canon.

They are connected in the same way the 22nd Budokai and Piccolo Daimao arcs are connected. Yes, some of the events bleed into the next arc, but they are two separate stories with two different climaxes.

It's like when they open Superman with Zod's trial even though he has no bearing on the first film.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

My point was that it isn't canon.

Irrelevant, Kai isn't the manga, what it shown in Kai happened in Kai, what is shown in Z happened in Z, what is shown in the manga happened in the manga, what is shown in SD happened in SD, and what is shown in each video game happened in each video game. They are all multiple versions of the original story that happened in the manga.

They are connected in the same way the 22nd Budokai and Piccolo Daimao arcs are connected. Yes, some of the events bleed into the next arc, but they are two separate stories with two different climaxes.

And these 2 arcs are considered as one arc in Shueisha's simplest arc division (in the Colored Edition). They combine the 22nd TB, Piccolo Daimao, and 23rd TB arcs into one arc, the Piccolo Daimao arc.

[ABED]

Kai was envisioned to be closer to the manga.

And these 2 arcs are considered as one arc in Shueisha's simplest arc division (in the Colored Edition). They combine the 22nd TB, Piccolo Daimao, and 23rd TB arcs into one arc, the Piccolo Daimao arc.

Then whoever did that is a moron, it makes 0 sense to lump them all together. They all have their own beginning, middle, and ends. Instead of telling me what someone else wrote, how about you give your reason why they are the same arc.

By the way, the Dragon Box considers them 2 different arcs.

[Dbzk1999]

Goku's destiny to defeat Freeza & avenge the Saiyans was shown in Bardock's vision.

It's the Japanese Home Releases that divide Kai in 3 parts (Saiyan & Freeza arc, Artificial Humans & Cell arc, Majin Boo arc).

The Bardock story is anime only. And Goku doesn't avenge the Saiyans, they weren't good guys. He even says they paid for their sins. The one that Goku avenges is Kuririn and the Namekians. As Gaffer Tape points out, that beginning would make sense if Kai ended with Freeza's death, but it didn't. Having Goku's alien heritage spoiled in the same episode that it's revealed is redundantly redundant.

Again, the Freeza arc is separate. I have no idea if whoever's in charge thinks it's one story, or if they just split Kai more or less in half for the home video release.

Whether goku intends to or not, his actions avenge all those who were killed by freeza (good or bad doesn't matter it's who was wronged that matters) goku defeating freeza avenged everybody who was wronged (namekians krillin vegeta and the other saiyans etc)

[ABED]

Regardless of the semantics, that's not the point of Goku's triumph. The story isn't building to Goku avenging his race that he has very little attachment to or a father he has no knowledge of.

[Gaffer Tape]

It's hard for me to talk about this without addressing my problems with the Freeza arc as a whole, so here it goes:

Bardock has no meaning to the Freeza arc because, and maybe you should sit down because I'm about to rock your world, Goku has no meaning to the Freeza arc. The Freeza arc is not Goku's story. It is Gohan, Kuririn, Freeza, and Vegeta's story. Goku just shows up halfway through and is basically their hired gun. But Goku's not the one who befriends and earns the trust of the Namekian people. He's not the one hiding from Freeza and his minions. He's not the one fighting back against someone who controlled his life. He's not the one forging uneasy alliances because it's his only choice to survive. Nothing in this story is about Goku, and it's not until Kuririn dies that he has an actual, tangible motivation for fighting Freeza. Freeza, for his part, barely knows who Goku is. Goku's not the one who's been screwing up his plans. Their entire conflict boils down to, "Um... you're here... so I guess we'll fight now." So, no, this story is not about Goku confronting his destiny or avenging his people or ascending to a new plane of existence or anything else like that because the story is not about Goku, period. He's only there to fight.

So if inserting Bardock into the beginning of Kai is some kind of attempt to rectify that, to make it seem as if there's something for Goku here, then I guess I can respect that... but it still doesn't work. It's just too little, too late and still doesn't connect to anything that actually happens.

[Dbzk1999]

Regardless of the semantics, that's not the point of Goku's triumph. The story isn't building to Goku avenging his race that he has very little attachment to or a father he has no knowledge of.

Who said it was the point? I'm just noting that with or with intentions to goku avenged the saiyan race also

[ABED]

Regardless of the semantics, that's not the point of Goku's triumph. The story isn't building to Goku avenging his race that he has very little attachment to or a father he has no knowledge of.

Who said it was the point? I'm just noting that with or with intentions to goku avenged the saiyan race also

Then you're splitting hairs since it wasn't the crux of my argument.

Gaffer, I wouldn't say it's not Goku's story at all. He may not have forged that alience, but he kept it going even though he had arrived on Namek. And he has a reason to fight Freeza before Kuririn's death - once he's out of the tank, there's no way out except through Freeza. He's not going to abandon his friends.

[Kid Buu]

It's hard for me to talk about this without addressing my problems with the Freeza arc as a whole, so here it goes:

Bardock has no meaning to the Freeza arc because, and maybe you should sit down because I'm about to rock your world, Goku has no meaning to the Freeza arc. The Freeza arc is not Goku's story. It is Gohan, Kuririn, Freeza, and Vegeta's story. Goku just shows up halfway through and is basically their hired gun. But Goku's not the one who befriends and earns the trust of the Namekian people. He's not the one hiding from Freeza and his minions. He's not the one fighting back against someone who controlled his life. He's not the one forging uneasy alliances because it's his only choice to survive. Nothing in this story is about Goku, and it's not until Kuririn dies that he has an actual, tangible motivation for fighting Freeza. Freeza, for his part, barely knows who Goku is. Goku's not the one who's been screwing up his plans. Their entire conflict boils down to, "Um... you're here... so I guess we'll fight now." So, no, this story is not about Goku confronting his destiny or avenging his people or ascending to a new plane of existence or anything else like that because the story is not about Goku, period. He's only there to fight.

So if inserting Bardock into the beginning of Kai is some kind of attempt to rectify that, to make it seem as if there's something for Goku here, then I guess I can respect that... but it still doesn't work. It's just too little, too late and still doesn't connect to anything that actually happens.

Yeah. He just shows up to save Gohan from Recoome, gets taken out the story again, then shows up to save Gohan from Freeza. He has nothing to do with the actual Dragon Ball hunt.

[TheGmGoken]

Gaffer Tape just said everything I dislike about Goku post Saiyan. Well done sir

[Kid Buu]

I still think Namek would have been a better arc if Filler Yamcha had arrived on Namek to defeat Recoome instead of Goku.

[ABED]

Gaffer Tape just said everything I dislike about Goku post Saiyan. Well done sir

You dislike about Goku or how he was written?

[TheGmGoken]

Gaffer Tape just said everything I dislike about Goku post Saiyan. Well done sir

You dislike about Goku or how he was written?

I only disliked Goku during Boo arc and BoG. So yeah how he was written.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Kai was envisioned to be closer to the manga.

But it's not envisioned to be the manga. The Bardock scene is there, so it's canon to Kai.

Then whoever did that is a moron, it makes 0 sense to lump them all together. They all have their own beginning, middle, and ends. Instead of telling me what someone else wrote, how about you give your reason why they are the same arc.

The way I see it, they are 2 different arcs, but they are both form one story.

It's like the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. The Curse of the Black Pearl is the 22nd TB, Dead Man's Chest is the Piccolo Daimao arc, and At World's End is the 23rd TB arc. On Stranger Tides is the Boo arc for example, since it has nothing to do with them, but it's part of the same series and continues the story of the main character, even though it's a stand-alone.

Similarly, The Curse of the Black Pearl is the Saiyan arc, Dead Man's Chest is the Namek arc, and At World's End is the Freeza arc. They are not stand-alones to each other.

I hope I was clear.

By the way, the Dragon Box considers them 2 different arcs.

There are official sources that have them as 2 arc, and there are other official sources that have them as 1 arc. There isn't a consistent arc division in Japan.

Check this: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 20#p355074

These are all the official arc divisions in Japan. It only thing missing is the Colored Edition division, which came recently.

Bardock has no meaning to the Freeza arc because, and maybe you should sit down because I'm about to rock your world, Goku has no meaning to the Freeza arc. The Freeza arc is not Goku's story. It is Gohan, Kuririn, Freeza, and Vegeta's story. Goku just shows up halfway through and is basically their hired gun. But Goku's not the one who befriends and earns the trust of the Namekian people. He's not the one hiding from Freeza and his minions. He's not the one fighting back against someone who controlled his life. He's not the one forging uneasy alliances because it's his only choice to survive. Nothing in this story is about Goku, and it's not until Kuririn dies that he has an actual, tangible motivation for fighting Freeza. Freeza, for his part, barely knows who Goku is. Goku's not the one who's been screwing up his plans. Their entire conflict boils down to, "Um... you're here... so I guess we'll fight now." So, no, this story is not about Goku confronting his destiny or avenging his people or ascending to a new plane of existence or anything else like that because the story is not about Goku, period. He's only there to fight.

So if inserting Bardock into the beginning of Kai is some kind of attempt to rectify that, to make it seem as if there's something for Goku here, then I guess I can respect that... but it still doesn't work. It's just too little, too late and still doesn't connect to anything that actually happens.

But like I said, the point of Bardock isn't to tell us "hey, this is Goku's dad!". The point of Bardock is to show Goku's birth & Planet Vegeta's destruction, to deepen the upcoming fight between Goku & Freeza in the viewer's eyes, and to show that Goku is destined to defeat Freeza & avenge the Saiyans like Bardock tried to do, and it's what Bardock also wished to do. And eventually, this is what happens. Goku accepts his origins, and fights Freeza to avenge the Saiyans (and Namekians) that Freeza killed. Sure the story isn't only about Goku, but in the finale of the Freeza arc, it's Goku time.

[ABED]

The way I see it, they are 2 different arcs, but they are both form one story.

They all form a single story with DB, but it's not one arc. And Pirates 2 and 3 aren't a part of the same story as 1. 1 is it's own story with some elements carrying over. If it's two different arcs, it's not a single story.

and fights Freeza to avenge the Saiyans

He doesn't fight to avenge them, it's a byproduct.

[DarkPrince_92]

I'm at the Piccolo vs Freeza fight. Still enjoying it for the most part. The Ginyu Force's voice cast were excellent, I loved their performances. Freeza is definitely the most sinister sounding character I've heard so far. Really good range from eloquent to outraged.

Also, the episode where Goku touches down on Namek, I noticed new BGM flooding in again. It sounds like tracks I've heard in Movie 3.

Still hate Studio Live's episodes, it's always a chore sitting through their mess of animation.