How much can Goku lift?

[dario03]

Who says western writers know or care about weights and physics? Sure they throw a bunch of physic sounding stuff in at times but a lot of times it doesn't make sense or isn't consistent either. Like my favorite example of them saying the flash evacuated a city by moving just under the speed of light. But doing what they described, he would have to have been doing well over ~8,000,000,000,000x the speed of light.

Relative physics and also Speed force.when Flash enters speed force he has basically slow downed time that it appears that everything has come to a halt.that speed feat is basically the extension of speed force.
Dc has created the concept of speed force. Flash's super speed are dependent on and draw the powers from Speed force. Anyone who has access to speed force is capable of these feats. if Batman has full-time access to it like Flash , he would make a mockery out of Flash.
here is quote from Wikipedia related to Marvel/DC crossover.

Spoiler:

Speed Force only exists in the DC Multiverse; when Wally traveled to the Marvel Universe in JLA/Avengers, he was powerless in the other world, requiring Steel to create a 'battery pack' that allowed Wally to absorb Speed Force energy in the DC Universe to give him a supply that he could use in the other world.

I'm aware of the speed force. But that lets him move at speed it doesn't change the fact that they said he did something at x speed or in x amount of time when it really would take y speed/time.

[Mr.Judge]

Who says western writers know or care about weights and physics? Sure they throw a bunch of physic sounding stuff in at times but a lot of times it doesn't make sense or isn't consistent either. Like my favorite example of them saying the flash evacuated a city by moving just under the speed of light. But doing what they described, he would have to have been doing well over ~8,000,000,000,000x the speed of light.

Relative physics and also Speed force.when Flash enters speed force he has basically slow downed time that it appears that everything has come to a halt.that speed feat is basically the extension of speed force.
Dc has created the concept of speed force. Flash's super speed are dependent on and draw the powers from Speed force. Anyone who has access to speed force is capable of these feats. if Batman has full-time access to it like Flash , he would make a mockery out of Flash.
here is quote from Wikipedia related to Marvel/DC crossover.

Spoiler:

Speed Force only exists in the DC Multiverse; when Wally traveled to the Marvel Universe in JLA/Avengers, he was powerless in the other world, requiring Steel to create a 'battery pack' that allowed Wally to absorb Speed Force energy in the DC Universe to give him a supply that he could use in the other world.

I'm aware of the speed force. But that lets him move at speed it doesn't change the fact that they said he did something at x speed or in x amount of time when it really would take y speed/time.

Yes about 'the hair breath short of Light speed' part in that feat. Technically based on analysis, Marvel/DC characters do not require any energy for any travelling stuff be it flight in space or running in space unlike DB. you cant compare these two since the beings in DB are very much dependent on their Ki-reserves for even flight whereas it cannot be said the same for Marvel/DC.

it seems that apparently DB vaguely follows the law of conservation of energy unlike Marvel/DC?

[xmysticgohanx]

It says that Toriyama didn't care about being consistent, and that trying to make everything fit is pointless. Which is why I go with the things I actually can quantify from the information that Toriyama gives me. All of the details you can find that you can extrapolate as strength feats mean nothing compared to the author flat-out showing and telling us that Goku cannot lift 40 tons at the end of the Buu Arc while flying in his base form, and his Super Saiyan form can lift that much while flying around.

That is a useable feat. Goku being able to move around in 220ish lbs of weight at the 23rd Budokai is a useable feat. Goku and Krillin being able to run around in those turtle shells (50kg, right?) is a useable feat.

All these others, as impressive as they may look, are not measurable feats. We don't know anything about them. Trying to use real-life science to measure them is futile, because, one, they were not meant to be looked into that deeply in the first place, and two, the author didn't care about making sure that all this stuff was consistent in the first place.

And yes, explosions can squash stuff. The pressure a of an explosion is sufficient to flatten the objects in its vicinity, assuming they aren't destroyed.

Every instance where Toriyama told us a specific weight is contradictory to their striking feats and earlier strength feats.

[Tsufuru]

@kamicolo

Yet Toriyama's numbers arent even consistent with each other , too.

So i rather take the feats above some stated numbers hat dont make sense at all.
U think the numbers are useable?
Lmao, kid krillin walks around in 40 kg shells like if its nothing literly.
Yet in the 23rd budokai he hardly moved in fuckin 22 kg shoes.

And you think these are useable?
How about tao?
How about giant piccolo?
Think more before you talk. 40 tons being impossible for base goku in buu saga makes as much sense lol.
Well atleast akira explained why he struggled.

Also you think mach 1.5 base gohan in buu saga is legit?
Lol tao is faster according to toriyama's stupid numbers.

[Mr.Judge]

.

your Sig?

Superman (post crisis) > Arale does not seem right.

Arale is way more powerful that she could be above Thanos/Adam warlock level upto low/mid council elite(marvel) and would have fun playing around with darkseid and world breaker hulk.

[Kamiccolo9]

Every instance where Toriyama told us a specific weight is contradictory to their striking feats and earlier strength feats.

@kamicolo

Yet Toriyama's numbers arent even consistent with each other , too.

So i rather take the feats above some stated numbers hat dont make sense at all.
U think the numbers are useable?
Lmao, kid krillin walks around in 40 kg shells like if its nothing literly.
Yet in the 23rd budokai he hardly moved in fuckin 22 kg shoes.

And you think these are useable?
How about tao?
How about giant piccolo?
Think more before you talk. 40 tons being impossible for base goku in buu saga makes as much sense lol.
Well atleast akira explained why he struggled.

Also you think mach 1.5 base gohan in buu saga is legit?
Lol tao is faster according to toriyama's stupid numbers.

All I'm getting from these is "lol, Toriyama's numbers that he gave us can't work because they contradict my fan-made numbers which can't be wrong because I say so?!?!?!?!?!"
Also, Tsufuru, when you are addressing someone, take the time to at least spell their name correctly.

[mmg86]

Did Krillin really have a hard time lifting "22 kg shoes"? The way i remember it he was just surprised at how heavy they were... he wouldnt be significantly hindered by them unless he used the full "heavy clothes" set at once. Its "100 kg of clothing is more than a 40 kg shell", not "boot>shell".

And with that, progression is physical strength is VERY consistent. 20 kg shells, 40 kg shells, 100 kg clothes, 10x gravity all the way to 100x, 40 tons and 150x gravity. The only one that would be out of place would be Vegeta attempting to train in 300x gravity, which, since we didnt see, can be dismissed as "he probably was crawling on the ground under such conditions"... or dismissed as "contradicts a later example", like i exemplified with one such instance in Saint Seiya.

[Kamiccolo9]

Did Krillin really have a hard time lifting "22 kg shoes"? The way i remember it he was just surprised at how heavy they were... he wouldnt be significantly hindered by them unless he used the full "heavy clothes" set at once. Its "100 kg of clothing is more than a 40 kg shell", not "boot>shell".

And with that, progression is physical strength is VERY consistent. 20 kg shells, 40 kg shells, 100 kg clothes, 10x gravity all the way to 100x, 40 tons and 150x gravity. The only one that would be out of place would be Vegeta attempting to train in 300x gravity, which, since we didnt see, can be dismissed as "he probably was crawling on the ground under such conditions"... or dismissed as "contradicts a later example", like i exemplified with one such instance in Saint Seiya.

Yeah, that's more or less how it went.

[The Monkey King]

I'd say so, at least for Oozaru Goku. However, we don't really know how physical strength correlates with ki. I'd say that on Oozaru at 100 would hit much harder than an Earthling at 100, despite the equal power, due to sheer size and momentum, and, I'd guess, physical strength as well.

Hmmm, but the Daizenshuu writes it in such a manner that it was because Goku's PL was 100 is how he had the strength to pulverise the 12 inch thick steel wall.

Also, the way I see it ki and physical strength seem to be highly linked as shown in the Raditz fight:

Goku's KHH had a PL of 900+ therefore didn't have enough force to harm Raditz:

Spoiler:

Piccolo's and Gohan's attacks had PLs of 1300+ therefore had enough force to harm/kill Raditz:

Gohan's headbutt:

Spoiler:

Piccolo's SBC:

Spoiler:

So as Gohan and Piccolo's attacks had more ki in them than Goku's KHH they had enough force to harm Radditz.

It just seems to be a matter of how much you concentrate your ki and where.
Doesn't matter if it's a punch or a ki blast it would deal the same amount of force just in different ways.

For example look at how Goku concentrates his ki into his fist to kill Piccolo:

Spoiler:

The kaio-ken seems claim this aswell:

Kaio-ken
[kaiou-ken; lit. "Fist of the King of Worlds"]

A technique that instantly amplifies the ki inside one's body, multiplying all one's abilities, including power, speed, defense, etc. Since it makes one capable of utilizing battle power many times their own ability, it is extraordinarily effective during battles with formidable opponents. However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one's abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-ken might destroy one's own body. When the user's battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-ken above those limits. The Kaio-ken's designer is the North Kaio, but Goku was the first person to be able to master it.

Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”

[Tsufuru]

Did Krillin really have a hard time lifting "22 kg shoes"? The way i remember it he was just surprised at how heavy they were... he wouldnt be significantly hindered by them unless he used the full "heavy clothes" set at once. Its "100 kg of clothing is more than a 40 kg shell", not "boot>shell".

And with that, progression is physical strength is VERY consistent. 20 kg shells, 40 kg shells, 100 kg clothes, 10x gravity all the way to 100x, 40 tons and 150x gravity. The only one that would be out of place would be Vegeta attempting to train in 300x gravity, which, since we didnt see, can be dismissed as "he probably was crawling on the ground under such conditions"... or dismissed as "contradicts a later example", like i exemplified with one such instance in Saint Seiya.

Yep he struggled cleary.
Like if 22kg would be something to be suprised about when he could walk around in 40 kg 3-5 years ago where he was much much weaker.

And no krillin only tryed the boots.
Also you guys ignore that they got much stronger.

Consistent?
Goku in base before arriving on namek could casualy move in 100x gravity.
Vegeta was still only training in 150x gravity while as a ssj in the fuckin buu saga after 7 fuckin years of training.

Kid trunks who should be stromger than goku when he arrived on namek had trouble in 150x gravity and needed ssj to move around.

Gravity training isnt there to show their physical strength.
Also tao bai bai>>>> all of them?

40 tons was explained by akira toriyama.
Goku couldnt lift them he used bokuujutsu or what ever its called.

No the numbers arent consistent.

@kamiccolo9

What fan-made numbers?
I showed you toriyama's numbers not making sense so fuck off.

[Tsufuru]

Because Goku with a PL in the millions is still weaker than Oozaru Goku with a PL of 100 physically.

Ki is connected to every act a dbz character does. Hax, speed, strength, power, everything. You need enough ki to hurt someone who can tank even (a) planet level explosion(s). With strength less than 40 tons (You? Someone? An attack?) won't hurt him. Period.

I (would) rather go with feats than some numbers that don't make sense.

Their strength goes with their power. They didn't became 1 million times more powerful but only 100 times more powerful strength wise. It wouldn't even make sense, since (Mr. Toriyama) himself said you need ki to over come your physical limits.

[Kaboom]

A few things to point out, Tsufuru.

I showed you toriyama's numbers not making sense so fuck off.

1) No matter what, this is never an appropriate or acceptable response to a fellow member.

2) Responding with "lol" and "lmao" and so forth towards someone's view is not okay either, not to mention juvenile.

3) More of a nitpick, but it's "Toriyama" or "Mr. Toriyama" and so forth. "Akira" is his given name, and you don't know the man personally.

4) Your spelling and grammar really need work. As pointed out in the forum rules, for the sake of our international members and for general understandability we expect our native English speakers to put some effort into how they type, and to be as clear and legible as possible. It's usually pretty easy to spot the difference between someone who speaks/writes English as a secondary language, and someone who's just being lazy or doesn't care, and the patterns in your typing are pointing to the latter. Unlike in texting, a chat room, or instant messaging, you have all the time you need to tailor your post. There is no need for a rushed, shorthand-filled approach. I've highlighted some corrections in your last post as an example, but I and the other moderators can not and should not be expected to continuously correct your posts.

[Hitiro]

Yes about 'the hair breath short of Light speed' part in that feat. Technically based on analysis, Marvel/DC characters do not require any energy for any travelling stuff be it flight in space or running in space unlike DB. you cant compare these two since the beings in DB are very much dependent on their Ki-reserves for even flight whereas it cannot be said the same for Marvel/DC.

it seems that apparently DB vaguely follows the law of conservation of energy unlike Marvel/DC?

There are numerous characters in Marvel and DC that follow the laws of energy conservation though? Just we mainly see characters, like Superman, who gain their power from outside sources and thus avoid having to worry about those sorts of things.

I mean if Superman had no energy from our yellow sun he would eventually lose his abilities and flight would be impossible for him. If the Flash couldn't draw energy from the Speed Force dimension he too would not be able to sustain his speeds.

The Beyonders powers wane if he remains outside of his normal dimension for too long.

Galactus is nearly always weakened due to hunger and his energy consumption rates.

I believe a lot of peoples perception of the Marvel and DC universes conservation of energy are based around the fact that these characters always have energy so therefore they must not have a law of conservation? But it is only because of outside factors that it seems like they have no laws of conservation.

Though there is an actual paper about how much energy Superman would need from the Sun in order to perform his flight feats. And it is unrealistic as there would be now way for his body to absorb that amount of solar power for flight. Ignoring all other abilities. In fact the students delve into the fact that Superman should be providing the Earth with more energy with his heat vision because he is so unrealistically efficient with energy that he may as well just become a power plant for Earth. There have been several comics and animated movies that have demonstrated Supes' depleting his energy through the use of his heat vision.

[Mr.Judge]

There are numerous characters in Marvel and DC that follow the laws of energy conservation though? Just we mainly see characters, like Superman, who gain their power from outside sources and thus avoid having to worry about those sorts of things.

I mean if Superman had no energy from our yellow sun he would eventually lose his abilities and flight would be impossible for him. If the Flash couldn't draw energy from the Speed Force dimension he too would not be able to sustain his speeds.

The Beyonders powers wane if he remains outside of his normal dimension for too long.

Galactus is nearly always weakened due to hunger and his energy consumption rates.

I believe a lot of peoples perception of the Marvel and DC universes conservation of energy are based around the fact that these characters always have energy so therefore they must not have a law of conservation? But it is only because of outside factors that it seems like they have no laws of conservation.

Though there is an actual paper about how much energy Superman would need from the Sun in order to perform his flight feats. And it is unrealistic as there would be now way for his body to absorb that amount of solar power for flight. Ignoring all other abilities. In fact the students delve into the fact that Superman should be providing the Earth with more energy with his heat vision because he is so unrealistically efficient with energy that he may as well just become a power plant for Earth. There have been several comics and animated movies that have demonstrated Supes' depleting his energy through the use of his heat vision.

The bold underlined part when using Real World Physics, then the universal speed limit is light speed(According to special relativity, c is the maximum speed at which all matter and information in the universe can travel). those actual papers you cite must have taken many liberties try to justify a fictional characters power consumption needs based on real world applications .
I don't think you can make cases for power consumption needs of a fictional characters using some made up papers.

conversation of energy is not really proportional even in DB.
since you gave the example of Galactus, then he has energy to destroy more than a planet(galaxies) by only consuming a planet similar to Goku consumption compared to his energy output.
May be senzu bean or untapped Ki-reserves solves that particular mystery for Goku.

What my post said was 'every activity should consume energy' while you gave examples of characters needing energy of some form to sustain themselves.

you brought up irrelevant theories to make a case for a fictional character like

it is unrealistic as there would be now way for his body to absorb that amount of solar power for flight. Ignoring all other abilities.

It is also unrealistic for Goku to have energy output he is capable of based on how much food he consumes if you leave senzu beans out of the picture.

My point was never that but only pertaining to how flight is used in these 3 fictional verse.

My earlier statement was

Marvel/DC characters do not require any energy for any travelling stuff be it flight in space...

In DB, Flight requires energy which is still based on Ki-reserves of those characters while In comics, Flight doesn't even have any negative effects on their energy consumption.

I am basically comparing Flight in DB and Marvel/DC , because objects cant just keep on accelerating without burning fuel.
More the speed , more energy they consume. it basically not the case for Marvel Flight based characters while it is true for DB flight.

Since you brought up heat vision then even flight like Heat Vision should deplete superman's energy which is not the case.superman traverses the space without burning up his internal solar reserves.

Somehow you may make a case for Superman flight since he is from DC , then can you explain how Terrax, Silver Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, Gladiator who are from Marvel who fly at infinite speed but don't burn a single ounce of energy in the process.

It eventually boils down to the fact that for DB universe flight requires energy while DC and Marvel universe treat flight basically as a plot device to traverse space.

Hopefully now you can understand the point of the post you quoted was since apparently the earlier post was unclear.

[Tsufuru]

A few things to point out, Tsufuru.

I showed you toriyama's numbers not making sense so fuck off.

1) No matter what, this is never an appropriate or acceptable response to a fellow member.

2) Responding with "lol" and "lmao" and so forth towards someone's view is not okay either, not to mention juvenile.

3) More of a nitpick, but it's "Toriyama" or "Mr. Toriyama" and so forth. "Akira" is his given name, and you don't know the man personally.

4) Your spelling and grammar really need work. As pointed out in the forum rules, for the sake of our international members and for general understandability we expect our native English speakers to put some effort into how they type, and to be as clear and legible as possible. It's usually pretty easy to spot the difference between someone who speaks/writes English as a secondary language, and someone who's just being lazy or doesn't care, and the patterns in your typing are pointing to the latter. Unlike in texting, a chat room, or instant messaging, you have all the time you need to tailor your post. There is no need for a rushed, shorthand-filled approach. I've highlighted some corrections in your last post as an example, but I and the other moderators can not and should not be expected to continuously correct your posts.

Okay, sorry, I will try to not do that again.

[xmysticgohanx]

All I'm getting from these is "lol, Toriyama's numbers that he gave us can't work because they contradict my fan-made numbers which can't be wrong because I say so?!?!?!?!?!"
Also, Tsufuru, when you are addressing someone, take the time to at least spell their name correctly.

All I'm getting from this is "lol, I can't think of a good refutation to xmysticgohanx's amazing, intelligent, and awesome post. I wish I had as much swag as him."
For real tho, Toriyama's numbers contradict a lot of things.

your Sig?

Superman (post crisis) > Arale does not seem right.

Arale is way more powerful that she could be above Thanos/Adam warlock level upto low/mid council elite(marvel) and would have fun playing around with darkseid and world breaker hulk.

Superman is ~large star+++ in dc and durability while Arale's best feat is cracking the sun which admittedly she did very casually. Also, if I'm not mistaken Superman is faster.

[Hitiro]

The bold underlined part when using Real World Physics, then the universal speed limit is light speed(According to special relativity, c is the maximum speed at which all matter and information in the universe can travel). those actual papers you cite must have taken many liberties try to justify a fictional characters power consumption needs based on real world applications .
I don't think you can make cases for power consumption needs of a fictional characters using some made up papers.

conversation of energy is not really proportional even in DB.
since you gave the example of Galactus, then he has energy to destroy more than a planet(galaxies) by only consuming a planet similar to Goku consumption compared to his energy output.
May be senzu bean or untapped Ki-reserves solves that particular mystery for Goku.

The paper was using founded principles. But it was just proving the point that it is scientifically impossible for Supes to absorb that much power and maintain flight. I think they ignored the actual energy needed to gain the lift and were actually calculating against the energy to propel Supes through the air drag. Can't remember. But you have to take liberties with that sort of thing obviously. And Galactus can already destroy Galaxies even when he is hungry. But there isn't really any point in poking that particular point because we don't even know how the "Power Cosmic" actually works. The "Power Cosmic" is supposed to be a vast and limitless source of energy. Yet Galactus can't use all of it due to hunger? Galactus having a meal could simply mean he has better access to this "limitless" source of energy. I wouldn't put it in the same dimension as Goku eating a Senzu and all of a sudden recovering his vast energy.

What my post said was 'every activity should consume energy' while you gave examples of characters needing energy of some form to sustain themselves.

I don't think the examples I provided were really all about sustaining themselves. While the Beyonder's powers wane from being outside his normal dimension for too long that was purely because of him using them. If he were to not use his powers or just do the minimum he could stay in another dimension. His activities are what drain his energy. But something inside his own dimension refills his power. When Galactus uses his powers it increases his hunger and thus weakens him. So there is some relevance to energy consumption there.

you brought up irrelevant theories to make a case for a fictional character like

it is unrealistic as there would be now way for his body to absorb that amount of solar power for flight. Ignoring all other abilities.

It is also unrealistic for Goku to have energy output he is capable of based on how much food he consumes if you leave senzu beans out of the picture.

Those aren't my "theories", that was something one of the students said while working on the paper about Supes.

My point was never that but only pertaining to how flight is used in these 3 fictional verse.

My earlier statement was

Marvel/DC characters do not require any energy for any travelling stuff be it flight in space...

In DB, Flight requires energy which is still based on Ki-reserves of those characters while In comics, Flight doesn't even have any negative effects on their energy consumption.

I am basically comparing Flight in DB and Marvel/DC , because objects cant just keep on accelerating without burning fuel.
More the speed , more energy they consume. it basically not the case for Marvel Flight based characters while it is true for DB flight.

I am aware that you were on about flight in the 3 fictional universes. But my point was you can't say flight has no negative effects on most of these beings because their energy reserves are constantly being replenished to a degree. So the negative effects never have a chance to show. When the Flash was put into the Marvel verse for a DC/Marvel cameo comic he couldn't use his powers over there because he didn't have access to the speed force in that verse. The Flash doesn't store his energies like a battery, and like Supes. So boots were developed to hold the energies of the speed force dimension. They needed recharging every so often so he would pop back to the DC verse to fill them up.

Since you brought up heat vision then even flight like Heat Vision should deplete superman's energy which is not the case.superman traverses the space without burning up his internal solar reserves.

I don't see why this would be a point. Space is a vacuum. As such once you apply a given force there would be nothing, bar extreme gravity wells, from stopping you. Superman merely needs to use his energy up until a distance where the Sun doesn't recharge him any more and leave the vacuum of space do the rest of the work. Only using his internal solar reserves to maintain his direction when passing gravity wells that would veer him off slightly.

Somehow you may make a case for Superman flight since he is from DC , then can you explain how Terrax, Silver Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, Gladiator who are from Marvel who fly at infinite speed but don't burn a single ounce of energy in the process.

I am not familiar with Terrax but the Silver Surfer, Beta Ray Bill both draw there energies from limitless supplies. Silver Surfer gets his power from the "Power Cosmic" and Beta Ray Bill gets his power from the "Odin force" which comes from his hammer Stormbreaker. Gladiator used to be a herald of Galactus so he originally also used the "Power Cosmic" but after losing that title and losing the "Power Cosmic" I think it was explained that he manipulates anti-gravitons? I am unsure as to the method with which he does this though.

It eventually boils down to the fact that for DB universe flight requires energy while DC and Marvel universe treat flight basically as a plot device to traverse space.

Well, yes. Most of the characters in the DC and the Marvel verse fight across the stars. So it is understandable that they use it for that. But to say that it doesn't require energy for them to do it is silly I think. As I said, most of these characters get their powers from external sources. Most of which are in constant supply and are constantly replenishing. Think it's a bit unfair to compare these characters to the Dragon Ball ones because they don't have this characteristic.

Hopefully now you can understand the point of the post you quoted was since apparently the earlier post was unclear.

I feel I understood your post though. I understand where you are coming from though because, as I said, the Marvel and DC verse negate the negative effects of most energy loss by having their characters draw power from some other practically limitless source.