What if Goku had lost to Kid Buu

[Rocketman]

If Goku lost to Kid Buu they just have dead Goku fight him again?

And since he's dead again, he can use SS3 at full power with no drawbacks. Then he gets revived with the "everybody good who died since yesterday morning" wish.

You can really tell the Kid Buu fight was a cobbled-together piece of shit, because it falls apart if you look at it for more than a minute.

[Hitiro]

Nope. You're talking about completely different Buus. This Buu is the one that was able to briefly hold his own against Pure Buu.

Mr. Boo put up about as much fight as SSJ2 Vegeta. Pure Boo was toying with him and the only reason he held out longer than Vegeta was because of his regeneration ability. The manga specifically states when Mr. Boo last his evil half that a majority of the power went to his evil half. So I don't know how you can say:

Pure Boo > Mr. Boo > Fat Boo > Pure Evil Boo.

When it is:

Pure Boo > Fat Boo > Pure Evil Boo > Mr. Boo.

I'm not saying he didn't. The manga is saying that. He said that only he, Uub, and Mr. Buu (and Mr. Satan) had a chance of winning. Vegeta was not even in the running. Also, you just answered your own query. SS3 Goku one-shots SS2 Vegeta.

No, when Goku is talking about "us" he is referring to anybody who will get to the end of the tournament to face Mr. Satan. Before Goku says "Maybe someone besides us or Boo will win." he says "Don't worry Mr. Satan, if any of us reach the end we'll let you win." Why would it confuse the viewers like that by talking about 2 completely different versions of "us" in the same conversation. I can tell you that if I'm talk to somebody about something that I would not change the context of "us" unless I explained before hand. Otherwise conversation with people would be fairly confusing and would lead to a lot of people saying "By us I mean, blah, blah, blah. Not like when I originally said us." The two sentences Goku says together are telling us that somebody else might reach the end to face Mr. Satan. Because win in this context would mean beating everyone else and leaving Mr. Satan win the special match at the end. If Goku meant win as in beat everyone and Mr. Satan then why would he even include himself and the others? Because as he just said before this they were all going to throw the fight against Mr. Satan anyway.

Holding back isn't fun. If all Goku wanted to do was have fun by having a fight where he holds back, he could fight literally anyone in the world and just suppress his power as low as he wants. Which he doesn't do. This is why he didn't include Vegeta in his small list of people who had a chance of winning the tournament.

I'm sorry. But Goku would not be "holding back" against Vegeta. It would be an incredibly difficult fight without his SSJ3 transformation. I don't see why him not being able to go SSJ3 would mean he can't have fun. You are right that it wouldn't be fun if he had to hold back in any transformation. But if he is fighting his full strength in any of his transformations it is going to be fun. Goku was actually enjoying the fight with Vegeta back in the Boo arc despite him having SSJ3. Goku has also chose to not use SSJ2 or SSJ3 anymore and just train SSJ which we get told from BoG. By your definition Goku will never have fun ever again because he will never get to fight "all out." It is just silly to assume that because Goku is fighting at his best in a weaker transformation that he won't have any fun.

Not according to Goku.

If Vegeta wasn't content in just fighting Goku then why did he even join the tournament in the first place? For the lol's?

And you should also realise that when Goku said "us" he was referring to whoever would meet Mr. Satan in the finals, right?

No, he was referring to himself and Mr. Satan.

So Goku went from inexplicably referring "us" as the whole group of his friends to just him and Mr. Satan. Goku said "Don't worry, if one of us gets to the end, we'll let you win." and then through no explanation he changes "us" to mean only him and Mr. Satan? That makes no sense, I'm sorry. As I said further up it would confuse people in conversation if they change what they meant by "us" midway during a conversation unless you state before you change it. If anything thing Goku should have made it more clear who he was referring to with the second "us" if he just meant himself and Mr. Satan. What he should have said was "Maybe someone else besides me, you and Boo will win." That would make much more sense. So you can't tell me that the word "us" just changes context mid conversation without any explanation prior to its change.

In fact, if Goku had planned that far ahead he wouldn't have even bothered to tell Mr. Satan that someone other than them could win. Because he would have been planning to take Oob anyway so it wouldn't have effected who met Mr. Satan in the final.

He was surprised by Uub's lack of control. There's no evidence he was already planning on taking Uub away. There's just the blatant and simple statement that Uub could possibly win.

Yes, there is a statement that Oob could win. But there is never a statement from Goku that says would lose to Oob without having to fight others. Which was my point entirely. You are assuming that because Oob could possibly win the tournament that Goku must mean that he isn't taking into consideration that he will be worn down by Vegeta if they were to fight first. Which simply isn't true. Goku never says that he could possibly lose at 100% of his power.

I'm sorry, but no. Goku only says he'd like for both of each other to be at 100% Goku NEVER said Oob could beat him. Please show me the actual line in which Goku says this?

Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”

Yes, Goku says someone else could win. But does that mean the Oob could beat him at 100% though? No, Goku never says that Oob could beat him in a straight out fight. Your original statement was that the manga stated that Pure Boo could possibly defeat EoZ Goku. But that isn't the case. When Goku said this statement he wasn't sure how the tournament would play about until he later decided to cheat. So you can't tell me that this statement means Goku is saying "I could lose to Oob if we both fight each other in the first round."

There's no evidence that he expected NOT to be at full power, no evidence that he wasn't already planning to rig the matches, and no evidence that his previous statement was suddenly rendered moot, as it stayed uncontradicted. There'd be no one he could even "lose" power with if he had god power, as the most powerful person there besides him and Uub was Mr. Buu. You're doing that thing again.

This is a null point. You are arguing that there is no evidence to prove what I said. But there is no evidence to contradict it either. And you say "There'd be no one he could even lose power with if he had God power." What about Vegeta if he also gets God power during the 10 years? You are making the assumption that Vegeta can't put up a fight. When it is entirely possible. Even if we take away Goku's God power then Goku and Vegeta were even in the Boo arc. So I don't see why we can't include Vegeta here.

Goku says to Mr. Satan that if one of them reaches the finals then they would throw the match. He clearly had not thought about cheating at this point.

How is that proof he didn't intend to fight Uub?

I said that Goku clearly had not thought about cheating at this point. This isn't proof that he didn't intend to fight Oob. This is proof that he was originally planning to fight through the tournament until he had to fight against Oob. Which would mean Goku would have to possibly fight against Vegeta and Mr. Boo. Thus not being at 100% during the fight against Oob which would account for him losing against Oob.

I'm not trying any twisting here. I am playing the devils advocate here. I agree what you say can be possible. But for you to come out and tell me that it is a stated EoZ Goku could lose to Pure Boo tier is completely untrue

No, it's not. You can of course twist and bullshit your way out of a very direct and blatant statement of course (just like some people still try to argue that 100% Freeza wasn't at 100%), like you're doing right now when you say "he wasn't talking about his full power". But that wouldn't change anything. Going by your logic, no feat or statement in the manga ever means anything.

I'm not twisting or bulshitting my way out of anything. There is no direct statement from Goku that he would lose to Oob except the one in which he was specifically talking about the tournament setting, which is unpredictable. For example. If we swap out Oob and replace him with Piccolo it could be possible that Piccolo could win. Goku fights against Vegeta and beats him but gets exhausted. Goku then fights against Mr. Boo and somehow manages to win which exhausts him further. Trunks and Goten fight each other and Trunks wins but gets exhausts him. Then Piccolo beats an exhausted Trunks pretty easily because Piccolo didn't have to do any work in the first fight. Then he fights against an extremely exhausted Goku and wins the fight. Thus meaning Piccolo can sweep his way to the finals. Furthermore, we're also forgetting about the ring out rule. Nothing says that these guys can't take a Kiai and end up outside the ring like Goku almost did.

For example:

Here is an example of a character stating they would be defeated

Nuh-uh, there's no evidence of that. He never says he intends to fight Buu at full power. He's clearly speaking of a hypothetical where he doesn't use SS3, and he's also lying (just like Piccolo lied about Kaioshin). What you're saying is completely untrue.

I don't see why you have to bring up stuff like this as if any of the stuff I suggested is unreasonable. I'm not twisting anything because we never get a direct and blatant statement. As I said in my previous post, I don't disagree that your opinion is possible. But you are putting in stuff like "it's stated EoZ Goku would lose to Pure Boo." And it just isn't stated. What is stated is that in a tournament setting someone other than Goku and his gang + Mr. Boo could win to the end. It just so happens that Goku had Goku was on about Oob.

So what is actually stated, is that in a tournament setting a character of the same level of Pure Boo could win the tournament.

Does that mean it is stating 100% EoZ Goku would lose to Pure Boo? No. It doesn't. I'm sorry but You are the one being obstinate here and not having an open mind. I can fall either way on this topic. Both are plausible idea's. Now you can go ahead and say "It's possibility that 100% EoZ Goku would lose to Pure Boo." And I would say, fair enough. Nothing actually says he wouldn't. Nothing actually says he would. So it is a possibility. But don't say its stated in the manga that Pure Boo could possibly defeat EoZ Goku. Because unless you mean in regards to a tournament setting where Goku or Pure Boo would end up fighting each other not at 100% or possibly leads to a ring out; then it isn't fact. Just an opinion.

An opinion is fine. And it is a valid opinion. But don't bring in stuff that aren't facts. Nothing I have said is a fact. It's all speculation. What would be a fact is Goku saying him and Vegeta have no chance against Evil Boo. What would be a fact is that Goku and Vegeta are equal, excluding transformations of course. What isn't stated, and therefore not a fact, is that Pure Boo could possibly defeat EoZ Goku outside of a tournament setting.

In the EoZ chapters nothing like this ever happens.

Goku: "...BUT SOMEONE BESIDES US AND BOO MIGHT WIN."

There is no need to increase the size of this quote. As I said earlier. Just because this means Oob can win the tournament doesn't mean that it directly translated into a 100% EoZ Goku not being able to win in a fight against Pure Boo. It just means that in a tournament setting, which is extremely unpredictable unless you cheat like Goku did, that a person of Pure Boo tier might win.

[dbgtFO]

Nope. You're talking about completely different Buus. This Buu is the one that was able to briefly hold his own against Pure Buu.

Mr. Boo put up about as much fight as SSJ2 Vegeta. Pure Boo was toying with him and the only reason he held out longer than Vegeta was because of his regeneration ability. The manga specifically states when Mr. Boo last his evil half that a majority of the power went to his evil half. So I don't know how you can say:

Pure Boo > Mr. Boo > Fat Boo > Pure Evil Boo.

When it is:

Pure Boo > Fat Boo > Pure Evil Boo > Mr. Boo.

It's reasonable, that Fat Buu had unused depths of his power, that first started to come out, when those two gunmen attacked Mr. Satan and Bee and then Mr. Buu and Pure Evil Buu's powers would be based on that instead of simply the power he used against Goku.
Like so:

Fat Buu(against Vegeta & Goku) < Mr. Buu < Kid Buu >=< Pure Evil Buu < Fat Buu(at verge of splitting).

[Hitiro]

It's reasonable, that Fat Buu had unused depths of his power, that first started to come out, when those two gunmen attacked Mr. Satan and Bee and then Mr. Buu and Pure Evil Buu's powers would be based on that instead of simply the power he used against Goku.
Like so:

Fat Buu(against Vegeta & Goku) < Mr. Buu < Kid Buu >=< Pure Evil Buu < Fat Buu(at verge of splitting).

I'm honestly not so sure that Fat Boo was lower than Mr. Boo. Purely because I understand Fat Boo wasn't using his full potential(Pure Boo's power). If we were to consider it then:

SSJ2 Vegeta: 1
SSJ3 Goku: 4
Fat Boo(Prior split against Goku): 1.5 + Pure Boo's Ki: 0.5(Maybe 1) = 2(or 2.5)
Pure Evil Boo & Pure Boo: 4
Mr. Boo: 1.5

[Low Tone G]

It's reasonable, that Fat Buu had unused depths of his power, that first started to come out, when those two gunmen attacked Mr. Satan and Bee and then Mr. Buu and Pure Evil Buu's powers would be based on that instead of simply the power he used against Goku.
Like so:

Fat Buu(against Vegeta & Goku) < Mr. Buu < Kid Buu >=< Pure Evil Buu < Fat Buu(at verge of splitting).

I'm honestly not so sure that Fat Boo was lower than Mr. Boo. Purely because I understand Fat Boo wasn't using his full potential(Pure Boo's power). If we were to consider it then:

SSJ2 Vegeta: 1
SSJ3 Goku: 4
Fat Boo(Prior split against Goku): 1.5 + Pure Boo's Ki: 0.5(Maybe 1) = 2(or 2.5)
Pure Evil Boo & Pure Boo: 4
Mr. Boo: 1.5

The whole 100% EOZ Goku as the only one to have chance to win against Uub seems a pretty cheap explanation when there's a tournament like Budokai. We are not talking about a battle ground where is only one rule: win or die. The tournament it's based on something else. Even if Goku suffered serious damage before meeting Uub in the tournament it could have been enough time between matches for him to heal himself with Senzu beans.

Only Vegeta could possibly threaten God Goku, and just in case as he is also a God like Goku himself, so you're right about that. But Goku being that excited as he wants Uub to replace him, when he could never be enough powerful only by training to compete God foes, it still makes Goku to be not enoughly responsible wanting Uub as his successor. He better chose Pan as God Pan is also possible being a saiyan.

For me it doesn't really work to have the same God Goku like we saw him in the BOG to be exactly the one we saw in EOZ.

In the next movie he should loose his God powers or right after the battle with Beerus. Or simply change the ending of the manga as everyone can become God with some help(like Whis). Because if Uub wants to be a true defender, he must be potent and Goku held back his God powers just to see Uub's potential as a normal being, so therefore even formidable as a God. The original ending can only make sense if Uub can be upraded into a God somehow.

[RandomGuy96]

Mr. Boo put up about as much fight as SSJ2 Vegeta. Pure Boo was toying with him and the only reason he held out longer than Vegeta was because of his regeneration ability. The manga specifically states when Mr. Boo last his evil half that a majority of the power went to his evil half. So I don't know how you can say:

Incorrect. He actually managed to land some blows on Pure Buu, he didn't just absorb hits like Vegeta. No, you're talking about Good Buu, not Mr. Buu. Mr. Buu is quite obviously different from Good Buu, as Pure Buu is quite obviously different from Pure Evil Buu.

No, when Goku is talking about "us" he is referring to anybody who will get to the end of the tournament to face Mr. Satan. Before Goku says "Maybe someone besides us or Boo will win." he says "Don't worry Mr. Satan, if any of us reach the end we'll let you win."

He's talking specifically to Mr. Satan in the first quote. The second quote is in a different context. If "us" was just meant to refer to super-powered people in general in the first statement, he wouldn't have specified Buu.

Why would it confuse the viewers like that by talking about 2 completely different versions of "us" in the same conversation

It wouldn't be confusing. At all. But you know what would be confusing? If someone was randomly not talking about their full power when making a strength comparison, then never mentions it.

I can tell you that if I'm talk to somebody about something that I would not change the context of "us" unless I explained before hand.

They're completely different statements in completely different contexts. I'm not sure how anyone could possibly get confused.

Otherwise conversation with people would be fairly confusing and would lead to a lot of people saying "By us I mean, blah, blah, blah. Not like when I originally said us."

"By that I mean blah blah, not my full power".

If Goku meant win as in beat everyone and Mr. Satan then why would he even include himself and the others? Because as he just said before this they were all going to throw the fight against Mr. Satan anyway

He only included himself, Mr. Satan, Uub, and Mr. Buu.

'm sorry. But Goku would not be "holding back" against Vegeta.

Using 1/4 of your power is holding back.

It would be an incredibly difficult fight without his SSJ3 transformation

Or he could just go SS3 and take out Vegeta by waving his hand in Vegeta's general direction, creating a breeze that throws him out of the arena.

I don't see why him not being able to go SSJ3 would mean he can't have fun. You are right that it wouldn't be fun if he had to hold back in any transformation. But if he is fighting his full strength in any of his transformations it is going to be fun.

No, it's not. Holding back a transformation is still holding back. He specifically agreed with the statement that fights aren't fun unless the fighters' true powers are close. SS2 Vegeta is not anywhere close to SS3 Goku.

Goku was actually enjoying the fight with Vegeta back in the Boo arc despite him having SSJ3. Goku has also chose to not use SSJ2 or SSJ3 anymore and just train SSJ which we get told from BoG.

1. Retcon. Not really applicable.

2. BOG's worth about as much to me as DBE.

By your definition Goku will never have fun ever again because he will never get to fight "all out."

Or, he will, because that's exactly what Uub was supposed to be for.

It is just silly to assume that because Goku is fighting at his best in a weaker transformation that he won't have any fun.

Except he himself flat-out agreed that fights aren't fun unless the TRUE POWERS of the fighters are close.

If Vegeta wasn't content in just fighting Goku then why did he even join the tournament in the first place? For the lol's?

What? Vegeta would still fight Goku, he'd just lose. Or maybe he unlocked SS3 behind everybody's back (video games would support this).

So Goku went from inexplicably referring "us" as the whole group of his friends to just him and Mr. Satan. Goku said "Don't worry, if one of us gets to the end, we'll let you win." and then through no explanation he changes "us" to mean only him and Mr. Satan?

Yes, because Mr. Satan can see what the word means when used in a different context.

That makes no sense, I'm sorry. As I said further up it would confuse people in conversation if they change what they meant by "us" midway during a conversation unless you state before you change it. If anything thing Goku should have made it more clear who he was referring to with the second "us" if he just meant himself and Mr. Satan. What he should have said was "Maybe someone else besides me, you and Boo will win." That would make much more sense. So you can't tell me that the word "us" just changes context mid conversation without any explanation prior to its change.

You're seriously over complicating things. It's not remotely difficult for someone to discern the meaning.

Yes, there is a statement that Oob could win. But there is never a statement from Goku that says would lose to Oob without having to fight others.

Again with this. Alright, give me the evidence right now that Goku wasn't talking about his full power. Because whenever that happens, we get something.

Which was my point entirely. You are assuming that because Oob could possibly win the tournament that Goku must mean that he isn't taking into consideration that he will be worn down by Vegeta if they were to fight first. Which simply isn't true. Goku never says that he could possibly lose at 100% of his power.

Yes, Goku says someone else could win. But does that mean the Oob could beat him at 100% though? No, Goku never says that Oob could beat him in a straight out fight. Your original statement was that the manga stated that Pure Boo could possibly defeat EoZ Goku. But that isn't the case. When Goku said this statement he wasn't sure how the tournament would play about until he later decided to cheat. So you can't tell me that this statement means Goku is saying "I could lose to Oob if we both fight each other in the first round."

Again, you're trying to twist something that is outright stated into the exact opposite of its intended meaning ("Uub could possibly beat me" ---> "I could totally one-shot Uub unless I lose almost all my power prior"). Stop doing that. Present some actual evidence, instead of using an excuse that can be used to dismiss every power statement in the manga. "He wasn't talking about his full power, but didn't specify"/"he was lying and never said he was lying" have never, ever been viable arguments.

This is a null point. You are arguing that there is no evidence to prove what I said. But there is no evidence to contradict it either. And you say "There'd be no one he could even lose power with if he had God power." What about Vegeta if he also gets God power during the 10 years? You are making the assumption that Vegeta can't put up a fight. When it is entirely possible. Even if we take away Goku's God power then Goku and Vegeta were even in the Boo arc. So I don't see why we can't include Vegeta here.

Because Vegeta is one-shot garbage to Goku. You're again making outlandish and out-there statements with nothing to back them up. Where did Vegeta get god power? Why does Goku not even mention him as a potential fun fight and focus solely on Uub?

I said that Goku clearly had not thought about cheating at this point. This isn't proof that he didn't intend to fight Oob. This is proof that he was originally planning to fight through the tournament until he had to fight against Oob. Which would mean Goku would have to possibly fight against Vegeta and Mr. Boo. Thus not being at 100% during the fight against Oob which would account for him losing against Oob.

He never, ever says he doesn't intend to be at 100% when he fights Uub, just like he never, ever takes back his previous statement after he rigs the matches. I've given my evidence, start coughing up yours.

I'm not twisting or bulshitting my way out of anything. There is no direct statement from Goku that he would lose to Oob except the one in which he was specifically talking about the tournament setting, which is unpredictable. For example. If we swap out Oob and replace him with Piccolo it could be possible that Piccolo could win. Goku fights against Vegeta and beats him but gets exhausted. Goku then fights against Mr. Boo and somehow manages to win which exhausts him further. Trunks and Goten fight each other and Trunks wins but gets exhausts him. Then Piccolo beats an exhausted Trunks pretty easily because Piccolo didn't have to do any work in the first fight. Then he fights against an extremely exhausted Goku and wins the fight. Thus meaning Piccolo can sweep his way to the finals. Furthermore, we're also forgetting about the ring out rule. Nothing says that these guys can't take a Kiai and end up outside the ring like Goku almost did.

Again with "HE WASN'T TALKING ABOUT HIS FULL POWER" excuse. I'd like to see some evidence of this claim right now. He never revokes his statement after he rigs the matches, and is still excited to fight Uub until he learns he can't control his power. This is a Goku who agreed with the statement that a fight isn't fun unless the true powers of the fighters are close.

I don't see why you have to bring up stuff like this as if any of the stuff I suggested is unreasonable. I'm not twisting anything because we never get a direct and blatant statement. As I said in my previous post, I don't disagree that your opinion is possible. But you are putting in stuff like "it's stated EoZ Goku would lose to Pure Boo." And it just isn't stated. What is stated is that in a tournament setting someone other than Goku and his gang + Mr. Boo could win to the end. It just so happens that Goku had Goku was on about Oob.

So what is actually stated, is that in a tournament setting a character of the same level of Pure Boo could win the tournament.

This would functionally be the same thing, as ring-outs have long since ceased to matter to the Z-fighters.

Does that mean it is stating 100% EoZ Goku would lose to Pure Boo? No. It doesn't. I'm sorry but You are the one being obstinate here and not having an open mind. I can fall either way on this topic. Both are plausible idea's. Now you can go ahead and say "It's possibility that 100% EoZ Goku would lose to Pure Boo." And I would say, fair enough. Nothing actually says he wouldn't. Nothing actually says he would. So it is a possibility. But don't say its stated in the manga that Pure Boo could possibly defeat EoZ Goku. Because unless you mean in regards to a tournament setting where Goku or Pure Boo would end up fighting each other not at 100% or possibly leads to a ring out; then it isn't fact. Just an opinion.

Again with the "he wasn't talking about his full power" excuse. The same excuse that can be used in every manga statement. Please present some evidence for it. Also provide evidence that Toriyama would go out of his way to confuse his readers like this.

An opinion is fine. And it is a valid opinion. But don't bring in stuff that aren't facts. Nothing I have said is a fact. It's all speculation. What would be a fact is Goku saying him and Vegeta have no chance against Evil Boo. What would be a fact is that Goku and Vegeta are equal, excluding transformations of course. What isn't stated, and therefore not a fact, is that Pure Boo could possibly defeat EoZ Goku outside of a tournament setting.

"No, he wasn't talking about his full power when he made that statement about Evil Boo. It's possible he was talking about facing Evil Boo not at 100% because he briefly considered using only SS2. Then he decided to use SS3, but never said anything about it, leaving us with the false impression that he couldn't beat Evil Boo".

[Hitiro]

Incorrect. He actually managed to land some blows on Pure Buu, he didn't just absorb hits like Vegeta. No, you're talking about Good Buu, not Mr. Buu. Mr. Buu is quite obviously different from Good Buu, as Pure Buu is quite obviously different from Pure Evil Buu.

Vegeta managed to get an attack on Pure Boo. Mr. Boo got at most 4 before Pure Boo started to pick him apart. Yes, that makes the world of difference. I've always considered Good Boo as Mr. Boo and the version with evil in him as Fat Boo. Sorry if it is confusing.

No, when Goku is talking about "us" he is referring to anybody who will get to the end of the tournament to face Mr. Satan. Before Goku says "Maybe someone besides us or Boo will win." he says "Don't worry Mr. Satan, if any of us reach the end we'll let you win."

He's talking specifically to Mr. Satan in the first quote. The second quote is in a different context. If "us" was just meant to refer to super-powered people in general in the first statement, he wouldn't have specified Buu.

He is specifically talking to Mr. Satan in both quotes. The conversation was just with Mr. Satan. Why would Goku change the context of "us" in the conversation with Mr. Satan without clarifying about it? Sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me. I didn't say the first quote is used to refer to super-powered people in general. It was specifically referring to the Goku and his friends who passed the prelims. So why would Boo be included in "us"? The conversation goes:

Goku(To Mr. Satan): "We all passed the prelims, of course."
Goku(To Mr. Satan): "Don't worry. If one of us(referring to the individuals that passed the prelims) gets to the end, we'll let you win."
Mr. Satan(To Goku): "R-really?!?"
Goku(To Mr. Satan): "...But maybe someone besides us(still referring to the individuals that passed the prelims) or Boo will win."
Mr. Satan(To Goku): "Ha ha ha! Oh, you're a funny one!"

You however believe the conversation goes:

Goku(To Mr. Satan): "We all passed the prelims, of course."
Goku(To Mr. Satan): "Don't worry. If one of us(referring to the individuals that passed the prelims) gets to the end, we'll let you win."
Mr. Satan(To Goku): "R-really?!?"
Goku(To Mr. Satan): "...But maybe someone besides us(Goku and Mr. Satan) or Boo will win."
Mr. Satan(To Goku): "Ha ha ha! Oh, you're a funny one!"

If you have a conversation with someone you don't change the context of a word without actually saying so before you do it. Read http://www.chompchomp.com/rules/prorefrules.htm It explains my point quite clearly. It says on the page that "Problems occur when the antecedent is unclear or missing. If you say, "You should hear her purr," you might mean your cat Lucy, or you might mean the engine of your souped-up sports car" In this case the pronoun would be "us" and the antecedent would be the context.

Now, through your opinion the story fails to at giving us a clear antecedent. Because you say that Goku uses "us" entirely different contexts which means two different antecedents. The only way to fix this would be for Goku to make it clear before he changes the pronouns antecedent. Which would mean what Goku should be saying is:

Goku(To Mr. Satan): "...But maybe someone besides me, you or Boo will win." < This would make more sense in your way of saying things.

In my opinion Goku is stalking about the same clear antecedent which he established at the start of the conversation. The antecedent is him and all his friends who passed the prelims, the antecedent isn't changed in this conversation so I, as the reader, should believe that Goku still means the same context when he says "us" and it does not harm the story (and conversation) in any way.

I can tell you that if I'm talk to somebody about something that I would not change the context of "us" unless I explained before hand.

They're completely different statements in completely different contexts. I'm not sure how anyone could possibly get confused.

Again, they are part of the same conversation and Goku never preludes to another antecedent. Therefore the original antecedent must still be in play which would be Goku and his friends who passed the prelims.

'm sorry. But Goku would not be "holding back" against Vegeta.

Using 1/4 of your power is holding back.

Using your full power in SSJ2 is not holding back. It is using your full power. If you remove their transformations which give them boosts a Saiyan fighting at full power would be the same as a Saiyan fighting as a SSJ2 at full power. It would still provide a challenge in the fight. I don't see why you can't see this. Goku's actual full power is 100% in his base form. The SSJ transformations just multiply this.

It would be an incredibly difficult fight without his SSJ3 transformation

Or he could just go SS3 and take out Vegeta by waving his hand in Vegeta's general direction, creating a breeze that throws him out of the arena.

Which would ruin the whole point of fighting fair in a tournament. Goku is not a guy to stomp all over Vegeta's pride like that.

I don't see why him not being able to go SSJ3 would mean he can't have fun. You are right that it wouldn't be fun if he had to hold back in any transformation. But if he is fighting his full strength in any of his transformations it is going to be fun.

No, it's not. Holding back a transformation is still holding back. He specifically agreed with the statement that fights aren't fun unless the fighters' true powers are close. SS2 Vegeta is not anywhere close to SS3 Goku.

So explain to me. If you could increase your strength by 50x by transforming and your maximum lifting strength is 5 tons in your base form. What would you call lifting 5 tons in your base form? Easy? Because I guarantee you, you would find it a challenge without transforming. You aren't holding back your strength in your base form. So you aren't holding back. Transformations are irrelevant.

Goku was actually enjoying the fight with Vegeta back in the Boo arc despite him having SSJ3. Goku has also chose to not use SSJ2 or SSJ3 anymore and just train SSJ which we get told from BoG.

1. Retcon. Not really applicable.

2. BOG's worth about as much to me as DBE.

1. How is this a Retcon exactly?

2. So what? That is still what is said. Goku won't be using SSJ2 or SSJ3 and he will only be using SSJ.

By your definition Goku will never have fun ever again because he will never get to fight "all out."

Or, he will, because that's exactly what Uub was supposed to be for.

Or he won't. Because he isn't going to be using SSJ2 or SSJ3 anymore.

It is just silly to assume that because Goku is fighting at his best in a weaker transformation that he won't have any fun.

Except he himself flat-out agreed that fights aren't fun unless the TRUE POWERS of the fighters are close.

All true power means is fighting at full power. And as far as I'm concerned fighting someone at your full strength, regardless of transformations, while both fighters are close in strength is still fun. And I think Goku also thinks of it that way considering he enjoyed the fight with Vegeta in the Boo arc despite having additional transformation.

If Vegeta wasn't content in just fighting Goku then why did he even join the tournament in the first place? For the lol's?

What? Vegeta would still fight Goku, he'd just lose. Or maybe he unlocked SS3 behind everybody's back (video games would support this).

Your original point was that Vegeta wasn't a contender. Vegeta would not fight Goku if he knew he had no hope against Goku. It would be a massive insult to his pride. So obviously Vegeta thought he could contend with Goku otherwise he wouldn't have joined the tournament. Therefore I don't see why we should think otherwise.

So Goku went from inexplicably referring "us" as the whole group of his friends to just him and Mr. Satan. Goku said "Don't worry, if one of us gets to the end, we'll let you win." and then through no explanation he changes "us" to mean only him and Mr. Satan?

Yes, because Mr. Satan can see what the word means when used in a different context.

Sorry, but that is just silly. The only antecedent we receive for "us" is Goku and his friends that passed the prelims. Unless Mr. Satan read Goku's mind he would have assumed the exact same thing. Or unless Goku is beaming the antecedent into his mind. Then as far as we know the antecedent is sill the same.

That makes no sense, I'm sorry. As I said further up it would confuse people in conversation if they change what they meant by "us" midway during a conversation unless you state before you change it. If anything thing Goku should have made it more clear who he was referring to with the second "us" if he just meant himself and Mr. Satan. What he should have said was "Maybe someone else besides me, you and Boo will win." That would make much more sense. So you can't tell me that the word "us" just changes context mid conversation without any explanation prior to its change.

You're seriously over complicating things. It's not remotely difficult for someone to discern the meaning.

It isn't over complicating things, it's English. You don't change the context of the pronoun without first assigning an antecedent. It's basic English. But the way you believe Goku just changes the context of the pronoun mid conversation without providing us with an antecedent is just plain wrong. As I told you many times.

If Goku really meant him, Mr. Satan and Boo he would have said it that way as to not confuse with the original context of the pronoun "us." And I have provided the structure of that sentence in this post and in one of my others.

Yes, there is a statement that Oob could win. But there is never a statement from Goku that says would lose to Oob without having to fight others.

Again with this. Alright, give me the evidence right now that Goku wasn't talking about his full power. Because whenever that happens, we get something.

What does full power have to do with anything? As I said already Goku was speaking in terms of a tournament setting. And in a tournament setting it is unpredictable. Why would full power come into this sentence when he is specifically talking about the tournament setting? Sure, Goku may fight Oob in the first round luckily(If he still hadn't of thought about cheating.) and it would have progressed like we saw. The tournament could have also progressed to the point that Goku had to fight Oob without 100% of his power because he would have to deal with Vegeta and Mr. Boo. When Goku said this statement we can't say he was genuinely saying someone was going to beat him while he was at 100% and you can't say so either. Sure it is possible, but it isn't stated.

Again, you're trying to twist something that is outright stated into the exact opposite of its intended meaning ("Uub could possibly beat me" ---> "I could totally one-shot Uub unless I lose almost all my power prior"). Stop doing that. Present some actual evidence, instead of using an excuse that can be used to dismiss every power statement in the manga. "He wasn't talking about his full power, but didn't specify"/"he was lying and never said he was lying" have never, ever been viable arguments.

Again, I am not twisting anything in this. The statement was said in regard to the tournament setting. Unless Goku specifically says that Boo could possibly beat him at 100% then it is open to interpretation. As I said several times. I'm not disagreeing that it is a possibility. What I am disagreeing with is the fallacy that Goku actually said that he could possibly lose to Oob at 100% because Goku says no such thing.

This is a null point. You are arguing that there is no evidence to prove what I said. But there is no evidence to contradict it either. And you say "There'd be no one he could even lose power with if he had God power." What about Vegeta if he also gets God power during the 10 years? You are making the assumption that Vegeta can't put up a fight. When it is entirely possible. Even if we take away Goku's God power then Goku and Vegeta were even in the Boo arc. So I don't see why we can't include Vegeta here.

Because Vegeta is one-shot garbage to Goku. You're again making outlandish and out-there statements with nothing to back them up. Where did Vegeta get god power? Why does Goku not even mention him as a potential fun fight and focus solely on Uub?

Vegeta is one-shot garbage? You're making outlandish statements. Again, I said that we don't even know whether Vegeta got god power during the 10 years. It isn't something that is confirmed or contradicted. We will have to see with the new movie or movies whether he gets it or not. I'm just saying don't rule Vegeta out just because we don't get much on him. As to why Goku focused on Oob. Goku did promise to fight Pure Boo after he came back as a good person. So I would assume that has something to do with it.

I said that Goku clearly had not thought about cheating at this point. This isn't proof that he didn't intend to fight Oob. This is proof that he was originally planning to fight through the tournament until he had to fight against Oob. Which would mean Goku would have to possibly fight against Vegeta and Mr. Boo. Thus not being at 100% during the fight against Oob which would account for him losing against Oob.

He never, ever says he doesn't intend to be at 100% when he fights Uub, just like he never, ever takes back his previous statement after he rigs the matches. I've given my evidence, start coughing up yours.

He never, ever says he does intend to be at 100% when he fights Oob until he decides to cheat. So your point is just as valid as mine. As I said. There is no way to prove either of these. We know Goku cheated. We don't know if this was planned or whether he just thought it up on the spot. The dialogue with Mr. Satan didn't prelude to the possibility that he would cheat either.

Again with "HE WASN'T TALKING ABOUT HIS FULL POWER" excuse. I'd like to see some evidence of this claim right now. He never revokes his statement after he rigs the matches, and is still excited to fight Uub until he learns he can't control his power. This is a Goku who agreed with the statement that a fight isn't fun unless the true powers of the fighters are close.

It isn't an excuse. It is an opinion. Just like it is of your opinion that Goku was talking about his full power. There is no evidence either way. I keep telling you this. Both opinions can be likely. I don't even know what statement you are saying he should be revoking after he rigs the matches. Are you on about the one where someone other than himself and his friends would win? Why would he revoke it for? And who would he say it to? Is he just going to randomly turn towards Vegeta and say "Well now that I'm going to fight Oob in the first round I'll win it."? For all we know he was most likely going to forfeit once he got a chance to fight Oob anyway. We have no clue about that.

I don't see why you have to bring up stuff like this as if any of the stuff I suggested is unreasonable. I'm not twisting anything because we never get a direct and blatant statement. As I said in my previous post, I don't disagree that your opinion is possible. But you are putting in stuff like "it's stated EoZ Goku would lose to Pure Boo." And it just isn't stated. What is stated is that in a tournament setting someone other than Goku and his gang + Mr. Boo could win to the end. It just so happens that Goku had Goku was on about Oob.

So what is actually stated, is that in a tournament setting a character of the same level of Pure Boo could win the tournament.

This would functionally be the same thing, as ring-outs have long since ceased to matter to the Z-fighters.

Fatigue accumulated from fighting against other fighters has not long ceased to matter. And ring-outs have long ceased to matter to the Z-Fighters? If it truly ceased to matter why did Cell decide to remove the ring-out rule exactly? Because it was a silly rule to have? Cell says it would be a disappointment if the fight were to end in a ring-out so the ring-outs didn't cease to matter any more.

Does that mean it is stating 100% EoZ Goku would lose to Pure Boo? No. It doesn't. I'm sorry but You are the one being obstinate here and not having an open mind. I can fall either way on this topic. Both are plausible idea's. Now you can go ahead and say "It's possibility that 100% EoZ Goku would lose to Pure Boo." And I would say, fair enough. Nothing actually says he wouldn't. Nothing actually says he would. So it is a possibility. But don't say its stated in the manga that Pure Boo could possibly defeat EoZ Goku. Because unless you mean in regards to a tournament setting where Goku or Pure Boo would end up fighting each other not at 100% or possibly leads to a ring out; then it isn't fact. Just an opinion.

Again with the "he wasn't talking about his full power" excuse. The same excuse that can be used in every manga statement. Please present some evidence for it. Also provide evidence that Toriyama would go out of his way to confuse his readers like this.

This has nothing to do with Goku being at full power. It has to do with what Goku said. Goku is talking in terms of tournament setting when he said he could lose. And as I said, a tournament is unpredictable. You can't just say "Well Goku isn't talking about the tournament here, he clearly means that he might lose at 100% to Oob." Because that isn't what is actually said. Like I also said, there is nothing wrong with having the opinion that Goku at 100% might lose to Oob. But Goku in no way states this. Unless Goku actually comes out and says "I'll could lose to Oob at 100%" then all we can go on is "Someone else might win this tournament other than us." The key word here is tournament. I don't see why this is confusing you. Because it isn't confusing to me. The only thing I find confusing is what you said about Goku using two different context for the pronoun "us" without providing the second antecedent. Because that isn't how a pronoun works in the English language. If you read that website you would see that it is confusing to use 2 different context without suitably leading up to them with a antecedent.

An opinion is fine. And it is a valid opinion. But don't bring in stuff that aren't facts. Nothing I have said is a fact. It's all speculation. What would be a fact is Goku saying him and Vegeta have no chance against Evil Boo. What would be a fact is that Goku and Vegeta are equal, excluding transformations of course. What isn't stated, and therefore not a fact, is that Pure Boo could possibly defeat EoZ Goku outside of a tournament setting.

"No, he wasn't talking about his full power when he made that statement about Evil Boo. It's possible he was talking about facing Evil Boo not at 100% because he briefly considered using only SS2. Then he decided to use SS3, but never said anything about it, leaving us with the false impression that he couldn't beat Evil Boo".

Because being defeated in a tournament = Being defeated in a battle while you are 100%? Of course. I understand now. It all makes sense. Goku would wisp through the tournament without a care in the world and fight Oob right at the end at 100% and possibly lose. Let us just retcon the fact that Goku said that he wants to fight Oob in the first round while he is at 100% because there is no meaning to this. I mean Goku would still be 100% after taking on Vegeta and Mr. Boo. Yeah. It makes perfect sense. Also you are right. Changing the context of "us" mid-conversation is the proper thing to do.

Kuririn: "Yes, Cell is destroyed! He was tough."
Piccolo: "Yes, a very formidable foe."
Kuririn: ""Well, he won't be getting back up again!"
Piccolo: "Yeah, Cell won't be getting back up again."
Kuririn: "Cell? I was talking about Trunks, he just died. Weren't you paying attention?"

^See, Piccolo is just as stupid as I am. Kuririn obviously made it very clear that he changed the context of the pronoun of "he" in his sentence. Me and Piccolo are just too dumb to notice. Silly me.