Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the end?

[Storm101]

None of those guys matter even a little bit except Emna Daio

You don't know that. The Kaio, Kaioshin, and Hakaishin are higher gods than him. Sure, these are Enma Daio's matters, and one of the Kaio/Kaioshin/Hakaishin wouldn't have the power to make him change his decision. But when he has at least one Kaio, all of the Kaioshin, and a Hakaishin on his side, these are very big means.

Seriously I like Vegeta, but his mewing fanboys make me puke.

Not fans, fanboys. As in, not people who do acknowledge that Vegeta SHOULDNT be getting away with all this.

Because I'm totally a Vegeta fanboy, and I'm not saying this because it is a very realistic situation in a Shonen manga (look at what happened to Sasuke in the end of Naruto for example, if you are into it), but I'm only saying this because I love Vegeta so much that I can't imagine him going to Hell... Right.

God the second half of this post is so weird. It doesnt really say anything at all.

You mean like all of your posts? All you've been doing is enticing other users and saying how much their posts disgust you. If you're not going to contribute to the thread in any meaningful way, then don't post.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I dont say more because they wont be convinced. In their eyes "Bejita" is an innocent little angel. They should get disabused from this notion ASAP. I'm going to try and put more meat in my posts though.

Also, like it or not, my posts DO say something. Vegeta is no angel and should pay for his many crimes.

[Storm101]

I wouldn't assume that. After all of these posts I've been convinced that Vegeta is more of an evil bastard than I gave him credit for. He probably does deserve to go to hell but not for eternity. I don't think anybody deserves a never-ending punishment, unless they refuse to change no matter what.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I do, because no one except Emna Daio has ever been observed having a significant role in the dealings of the dead. Even if we didn't see that, this is stupid non-logic. "Oh, we don't know literally everything, so there COULD be a giant spaghetti monster where DB's Hell would be".

Rou Kaioshin got a body after he died without going in Enma Daio's line, or even going to Enma Daio at all, and he could also go to the Living World without asking for permission from Enma Daio. We have 2 cases of a higher god violating the rules. Heck, even Enma himself violated his own rules by giving Vegeta a body to go to the Living World...

Personally, I don't think that doing a favor to one of the universe's greatest saviors (Goku), with so many higher gods on his side, is a "stupid non-logic" (and Enma has done a favor to Goku before after all).

I also highly doubt that Kaio, Kibitoshin, and Elder Kaioshin would vouch for Vegeta. They all know how horrible he is

Was. Vegeta has changed, and we are talking about the time when he would die, meaning over 20 years after the last time he killed people. The Kaioshin have come to like him in Toriyama's eyes, according to BoG, and they, along with Kaio, do acknowledge that Vegeta heavily contributed into saving the universe more than once (other than Kaio when Vegeta was a bad gu

Toriyama is a lot more self-aware about Shonen cliches than many people realize. He subverts them all the time. Especially in regards to Vegeta. For example, when Vegeta got righteous fury and charged Cell with the power of love or whatever, yet still got his shit wrecked anyway because he's weak. Or when Goku had a "I'll put everything I have into this last blow!" moment, and Vegeta just shrugged it off and broke his ribs. Or when Vegeta announced that he was atoning, and Piccolo flatly told him that he was still going to Hell anyway, because the universe didn't forget about how horrible he was for his entire life.

Or like when Porunga considered him a good enough person to revive because he regretted his past crimes & placed his very existence on the line in order to protect the universe.

I dont say more because they wont be convinced. In their eyes "Bejita" is an innocent little angel. They should get disabused from this notion ASAP. I'm going to try and put more meat in my posts though.

Seriously, I'm not a Vegeta fanboy. I'm on the side that says that Vegeta should rot to Hell. However, I don't see Goku letting his friend rot in Hell (because they did become friends by the end of the manga), and seeing how the Dragon World works, Vegeta probably can get away from his crimes.

[Cure Dragon 255]

You lost me at "He got revived by Porunga and he regretted all he did". No he didnt.

Seriously, that's a dub invention.He didnt regret anything in Namek, and you shot yourself in the foot by saying that. He got revived because the wish was "Revive everyone killed BY FREEZA". That's why the Namekians he killed never returned to life. And he gloated about it. Seriously. I cant believe you guys.

Also, serious feeling of disturbance from that last sentence.

Also, why does hell fucking exist then?


There! I put much more meat to my posts.

[RandomGuy96]

Rou Kaioshin got a body after he died without going in Enma Daio's line, or even going to Enma Daio at all, and he could also go to the Living World without asking for permission from Enma Daio

This has absolutely nothing to do with deciding the fate of the dead.

We have 2 cases of a higher god violating the rules. Heck, even Enma himself violated his own rules by giving Vegeta a body to go to the Living World...

Because Super Buu was killing everyone, and Vegeta was all they had. He made it clear that, in any other circumstance, Vegeta wouldn't get a body.

Personally, I don't think that doing a favor to one of the universe's greatest saviors (Goku), with so many higher gods on his side, is a "stupid non-logic" (and Enma has done a favor to Goku before after all).

Emna Daio has no reason to do that. It's a huge violation of the rules, and basically makes the whole "justice" system of the afterlife a pointless joke. Hell may as well not exist if someone as evil as Vegeta can get out of being sent there.

Or like when Porunga considered him a good enough person to revive because he regretted his past crimes & placed his very existence on the line in order to protect the universe.

Porunga =/= Emna. God himself literally says Vegeta will go to hell. It doesn't get any more concrete than that.

Was. Vegeta has changed, and we are talking about the time when he would die, meaning over 20 years after the last time he killed people. The Kaioshin have come to like him in Toriyama's eyes, according to BoG, and they, along with Kaio, do acknowledge that Vegeta heavily contributed into saving the universe more than once (other than Kaio when Vegeta was a bad guy).

Is. He hasn't changed. He just decided that he didn't need to kill at that moment, since these idiots were giving him free shit and letting him live a life of luxury despite his crimes which he showed no regret over. You don't get to be called a good person just because you spent 2/3 of your life murdering billions rather than all of it. Those people Vegeta killed are never coming back. He doesn't get off the hook for their deaths.

Vegeta has done exactly jack shit to save the universe. His score is still well into the negatives. No Vegeta means no Buu. No Vegeta means no complete Cell. No Vegeta means no one talks Goku out of bringing Gohan to one-shot Buu.

[Kamiccolo9]

I dont say more because they wont be convinced. In their eyes "Bejita" is an innocent little angel. They should get disabused from this notion ASAP. I'm going to try and put more meat in my posts though.

Also, like it or not, my posts DO say something. Vegeta is no angel and should pay for his many crimes.

Why do you keep putting quotes around Bejita?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Is. He hasn't changed.

Oh, OK.

YSeriously, that's a dub invention.He didnt regret anything in Namek, and you shot yourself in the foot by saying that. He got revived because the wish was "Revive everyone killed BY FREEZA". That's why the Namekians he killed never returned to life. And he gloated about it. Seriously. I cant believe you guys.

I'm talking about the wish to Porunga in Boo arc, when Vegeta was brought back to life when they said "bring back to life everyone that died, except for the really bad guys".

[Cure Dragon 255]

I'm mocking the name. Especially since it seems to be used by a dubbie(Only they would say Vegeta regretted what he did, becuase its a thing Funimation made up) who still needs to show off his cool japanese animes cred.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm mocking the name. Especially since it seems to be used by a dubbie(Only they would say Vegeta regretted what he did, becuase its a thing Funimation made up) who still needs to show off his cool japanese animes cred.

So you're insulting another user for using the original name of the character because his opinion differs from yours. Seems legit.

[Lord Beerus]

Remember folks, Vegeta will still go to Hell when he dies. It was all but confirmed in the manga. I mean the only reason he didn't stay and rot in hell was because Buuhan was going to kill Goku and eventually destroy the universe and they needed Vegeta fuse with Goku as he was essentially their last throw of the dice.

[VegettoEX]

Account strikes are actively being issued. Please review the forum rules (which you agreed to twice prior to registration) before making further contributions.

If you're not willing to be an awesome person, we're not willing to have you here. Please re-evaluate what you're looking to get out of your time here and what value you find in the website as a whole.

[rereboy]

So you're insulting another user for using the original name of the character because his opinion differs from yours. Seems legit.

Since his name is based on the english word "vegetable", using Bejita instead of Vegeta is like using a foreign mispronunciation of a name in our language.

I'll give a concrete example. In the USA, they named the famous portuguese explorer Fernão de Magalhães as "Ferdinand Magellan". Probably because its easier to pronounce that way. I'm portuguese so, why should I call him "Ferdinand Magellan" instead of Fernão de Magalhães? Using Bejita instead of Vegeta or Seru instead of Cell is similar to that.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Thank you!

The intent is for the word to be like Vegetable. By writing it Bejita (I wont use "" anymore) you are ignoring Toriyama's intent.

[Zephyr]

Let's look at what Vegeta truly holds the most dear throughout most of the story. Is it his physical well being? Is it his continued existence? Hardly. It's his pride. And that has been battered to tiny pieces, over and over again. Psychologically, Vegeta has endured a fate far worse than any hell.

Defeated by a team of who he deemed lesser people, having all of his efforts on Namek be torn to shreds by Freeza, having his ass beaten by a woman after finally reaching one his biggest lifelong goals, seeing his own son killed as a result of his actions, having the entire planet wiped out largely (not entirely) by his actions, and having to join bodies with the person who he hates most in the world. For the average person, that kind of stuff might not be the worst thing imaginable. For Vegeta? I'd say it is. Since his introduction, every time he's done something awful, he's had to feel the brunt of those consequences where they really hurt: his ego.

Couple that with the times when he helps out? I personally believe he has suffered enough in his own way. I know people will disagree with me to hell and back, since everyone has their own view of morality and justice, so let's just skip the "well I believe this!" and just agree to disagree.

Were the other main characters considering all of this? Really doubt it. I do think they forgave him too easily. They seemed to just outright accept him at every turn. I'd say they forgave Tenshinhan and Piccolo a tad too easily as well, but Vegeta takes the cake.

Is. He hasn't changed. He just decided that he didn't need to kill at that moment, since these idiots were giving him free shit and letting him live a life of luxury despite his crimes which he showed no regret over. You don't get to be called a good person just because you spent 2/3 of your life murdering billions rather than all of it. Those people Vegeta killed are never coming back. He doesn't get off the hook for their deaths.

Speculation about what would happen to Vegeta after he dies aside, the series we're discussing seems to disagree.

Vegeta has done exactly jack shit to save the universe.

Only if you subscribe to the view that helping to solve a problem doesn't count as helping solve a problem if you helped cause the problem. Whether or not he caused it, he still helped solve it. Anyone is free to believe that this doesn't make up for it, but he certainly was instrumental to the solving of the problem after it had become a problem.

[Ashelia]

Only if you subscribe to the view that helping to solve a problem doesn't count as helping solve a problem if you helped cause the problem. Whether or not he caused it, he still helped solve it. Anyone is free to believe that this doesn't make up for it, but he certainly was instrumental to the solving of the problem after it had become a problem.

Thats like an abuser saying "Sure I intentionally kicked your face in until your brain started spilling out but I did drive you to the hospital instead of letting you die so I think some thank yous are in order!"

I'm sorry but no lol. I'm a Vegeta fangirl but you don't get credit for helping to fix something you caused on purpose. It'd be different if Vegeta's mishaps weren't based in selfishness but they usually are.

I still find it funny how Bulma forgave Vegeta for his heinous acts as well.

A wounded bad boy is one of the greatest weaknesses of a shallow woman. You'd think someone would've step in and stop her as she can't fight him off but nope. They just let one of the series greatest assets live with a mass murdering psychopath as if nothing bad could have ever happened lol.

[Kamiccolo9]

So you're insulting another user for using the original name of the character because his opinion differs from yours. Seems legit.

Since his name is based on the english word "vegetable", using Bejita instead of Vegeta is like using a foreign mispronunciation of a name in our language.

I'll give a concrete example. In the USA, they named the famous portuguese explorer Fernão de Magalhães as "Ferdinand Magellan". Probably because its easier to pronounce that way. I'm portuguese so, why should I call him "Ferdinand Magellan" instead of Fernão de Magalhães? Using Bejita instead of Vegeta or Seru instead of Cell is similar to that.

I don't care. The problem I have is that he openly said he was "mocking" the guy for using it, instead of offering a simple explanation as to why it's "incorrect."

But, as Mike said, it's dealt with now. Moving on.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

When first introduced, Vegeta was an evil fuck that had killed countless of innocent people & children on countless planets, and that wouldn't care if his family & comrades would die, and he would even kill them just because they are weak. He only cared about himself. When he made a family with Bulma, Vegeta became soft, and started to love his family, and even Planet Earth. He didn't like this change of his, so he fell under Babidi's control to become pure evil again. Even though he was an evil fuck again (killing hundreds of innocents just to make Goku fight him), he failed to completely eradicate his good side, since he still loved his family, and he sacrificed himself for the sake of protecting them, and to fix his mistake (Boo's revival). Later against Pure Boo, Vegeta accepted that Goku was #1, and stopped hating him, and he placed not just his life, but his very existence in order to save the universe. Then Porunga, an all-knowing dragon god, revived him because, according to him, Vegeta is a good person now. That means that Vegeta doesn't wish to do bad thing anymore, and doesn't good for his past evil deeds. Four years later, he was willing to ridicule himself in front of Beerus in order to protect the Earth, and he was righteous enough to successfully participate in the ritual to make a Super Saiyan God.

^All of these are, correct me if I'm wrong, undeniable facts from the manga (and BoG, I included it because it's a Toriyama story, if you don't accept it as a part of the story, just ignore it, don't start a debate about it's "canonicity" here).

Now, I'm not saying that Vegeta shouldn't go to Hell. He must go to Hell, there is no question about that, his past is too dark. However, I do think he has a chance to avoid it, not because he will be forgiven because now he has become a better person, but because he is now friends with Goku, and all the gods own a lot to Goku for saving the universe, and many of the gods, including Enma Daio, are friends with Goku. So, if Goku, along with the Kaioshin, Kaio, Beerus, and Whis (who is now apparently training Vegeta in FnF, another Toriyama story), were to ask to forgive Vegeta because he is a good person now who has also heavily contributed to saving the universe, maybe Enma will do Goku the favor.

Now if anyone disagrees with that, he doesn't have to be a dick and act as if his opinion is undeniable fact, because it's his personal opinion, and there are other people's opinions.

On a side-note about Enma Daio & Porunga: Enma judges the dead by their past, and Vegeta's past is unforgivable. Porunga seems to judge people from their present, and at that specific point, Vegeta wasn't a bad guy.

[Gaffer Tape]

Only if you subscribe to the view that helping to solve a problem doesn't count as helping solve a problem if you helped cause the problem. Whether or not he caused it, he still helped solve it. Anyone is free to believe that this doesn't make up for it, but he certainly was instrumental to the solving of the problem after it had become a problem.

Let's say I make a boo-boo at work that causes the breakdown of a machine that is necessary to put on our show. I report it to the stage manager. She and I and a bunch of other techs gather around and just barely manage to fix the machine in time to get the show going on time. So at my next performance evaluation, do you think I should say, "Hey, remember that time I saved the day? You're welcome. I should probably get a promotion, right?" No, most likely in a best-case scenario the fact that I helped solve the problem I caused would allow me to break even, as in, it would have been the only thing that kept me from losing my job.

[RandomGuy96]

correct me if I'm wrong,

Okay.

When he made a family with Bulma, Vegeta became soft, and started to love his family, and even Planet Earth.

He obviously didn't love them, seeing as how he repeatedly abused his son and nearly killed his wife more than once. He was also willing to doom the entire Earth, including them, just for the sake of a pissing contest with a dead guy who didn't even care.

Later against Pure Boo, Vegeta accepted that Goku was #1, and stopped hating him, and he placed not just his life, but his very existence in order to save the universe.

No, he placed his existence on the line for two reasons: one, pride. He and Goku could have fused to instantly defeat Buu, but Vegeta is a dick, so he said no. He continues to say no even after Gohan has been revived, even though bringing Gohan would end the conflict in five seconds. Two, self-preservation. He can't exactly leave.

Then Porunga, an all-knowing dragon god

Porunga is not a god, and he is not all-knowing.

revived him because, according to him, Vegeta is a good person now

No, Vegeta got to be revived because they only prohibited the revivals of the REALLY bad people. In other words, Babidi.

That means that Vegeta doesn't wish to do bad thing anymore, and doesn't good for his past evil deeds.

How does it mean that?

Four years later, he was willing to ridicule himself in front of Beerus in order to protect the Earth, and he was righteous enough to successfully participate in the ritual to make a Super Saiyan God

Even if we were to accept BOG into this discussion, that isn't a good deed. It's simple self-preservation.

Speculation about what would happen to Vegeta after he dies aside, the series we're discussing seems to disagree.

No it doesn't. God himself said Vegeta would to Hell. That's just about as concrete as it gets.

Only if you subscribe to the view that helping to solve a problem doesn't count as helping solve a problem if you helped cause the problem. Whether or not he caused it, he still helped solve it. Anyone is free to believe that this doesn't make up for it, but he certainly was instrumental to the solving of the problem after it had become a problem.

He didn't help solve it; he caused it and then actively tried to stop others from solving it. You can't really be called a help if, instead of actually help to solve the problem, you continually serve as a detriment.