Because I'm more of a fanboy than you are.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:43 pm

How was Gohan Ssj2 when angry about Videl? Every time that Gohan is shown transforming into Ssj2, he has to go Ssj first. He would have shown two distinct powerups if he were to go Ssj2 at that point - which he did not. There would also be no reason for him to do such a thing, either. He was Ssj and not Ssj2 at that point.

There is something that has been failed to be considered.

Every example of Gohan's "two strands" is when he powers into the weakest you can be as a Super Saiyan.

Remember the state Goku was in when he "warmed up" against Cell before releasing his full power? That was Super Saiyan being used in a fully relaxed, almost "base level" type way. When he powers up later - His hair actually changes! It wasn't a huge change - but it was different than before.

"Two strands" Ssj Gohan appeared only when Gohan was in a "relaxed" Super Saiyan state like his father in the beginning of his fight with Cell.

Now, let's look at the various times when Gohan was Super Saiyan and actually powered up into a combat state. Every case of this, his hair only has one strand. If you compare to the only confirmed time he was Ssj2 (showing to Kibito) then you see the the hair is exactly the same.

I also beg the question - why would Toriyama-sensei include all the traits of an Ssj2 on Gohan one chapter - but not include them 2 chapters prior and a few later? That doesn't add up or make any sense. Again, Gohan would be breaking every single rule present to Super Saiyans and aura's. His hair, also, is not an issue. His powered up Ssj hair and Ssj2 hair is shown to be exactly the same.

Now, why is it that Goku had to and only could be talking about Ssj2 Cell when he compared Dabra to him? Cell had roughly 7 different "levels of power" through his various appearances - so why is it that everyone limits to only possibly being the pique of his power?

Xyex said that was the Cell that was "the most burned into Goku's mind". Well, why would that be so? Goku never even saw that Cell or felt his Ki. Kaio-sama's communication is never stated to allow you to feel Ki or see - just talk to the desired person.

Goku knows his opponents best through the Art of battle. That is what leaves the biggest mark on Goku is fighting with them! The Cell that would be the most "burned into Goku's mind" would be the Cell that he engaged in combat with - the one he would know best, by far.

Since that is the Cell that Goku would remember best, then Dabra would be about that strength - which would mean Gohan being Ssj1 would make complete sense.

Regarding Vegetto

Also - Vegetto having Lightning around him upon first powering up isn't anything special. There are tons of times that a "higher level aura" seems apparent during the process of powering up, and then fades into the normal aura quickly thereafter. Aura's are (sometimes) just more intense when you first transform, nothing special there.

Regarding Trunks

As a Super Saiyan's power level increases and increases - it is shown that the aura and hair tend to change and sometimes get closer to look like Ssj2. Gohan and Goku as Super Saiyans during the Cell Game had new aura's because they had taken the form to a level it had never before seen. You'll find that this same aura is shown on lots of other high powered Super Saiyans in the future.

Trunks is such a case. As this was the first time we see him use "normal" Super Saiyan since his second emergence from the room of spirit and time, he seems to have taken the level so far that his aura changes.

We also see that, as a Saiyan controls his power to certain levels, his aura changes. A relaxed Super Saiyan can go so far as to have no aura (seen very few times). A Super Saiyan in (real) combat has, at the least, the normal Ssj Aura (gentle flame) which is also the case for Vegetto - His power was so great that he only needed to tap the lower depths of his Ssj power. And, we see a much more vibrant flame aura, as seen on Goku and Gohan in the Cell Game and on various others thereafter - and a "Super intense" aura which is seen on Cell at Full Power and Ssj Gotenks.

Just some things to observe. I think I've got nothing else to add.

masenko · Post by **masenko** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:59 pm

DBZ MAN wrote:Thats true but I don't know why he could become super saiyan 2 in Budokai 3.

I was unaware of this. Do you happen to have any screens of this from the game??

DBZ MAN · Post by **DBZ MAN** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:57 pm

I cannot actualy find any sorry but in regards to duo's statement, saiyans can jump to super saiyan 2 or 3 if they have those abilities. Goku has done it a number of times. Unless you meant that the animators would want to show the viewres that he is at SSJ 2 stage. Gohan also fights Fat Buu in SSJ 2 form.

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:50 pm

Bejiita wrote:
Sebastian (SB) wrote:Wasn't Mirai Trunks's hair while turning Super Saiya-jin distinctively sharper when he was fighting Cell in his timeline? So that would make him Super Saiya-jin 2 based on your statements. I believe there was another thread in relation to this a long while back.
Yea I do, but he wasn't SSJ2, there wasn't any lightning, and also some years passed after he killed both Cyborgs and his hair style was slighty different, which made his SSJ hair look a bit different too.

His hair looked quite similar to the Trunks from GT's one.

Ok, so do you believe that in order to attain Super Saiya-jin 2, a Saiya-jin must have a sharp & bold look of the hair or a Saiya-jin must have electricity surrounding its aura. Sorry, but in regards to your post of the Saiya-jin levels it seems like you differentiate a Saiya-jin, in terms of levels, by the looks or style of the hair rather than the electricity surrounding the aura. Then in your this previous post, you're saying that when Mirai Trunks was fighting Cell there was no electricity surrounding his aura, so he possibly couldn't be Super Saiya-jin 2 (in which I 100% agree). It just seems you aren't really specific in what you believe a Saiya-jin's features must have in order to obtain Super Saiya-jin 2.

DBZ MAN · Post by **DBZ MAN** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:56 pm

I think he means that the more powerful the super saiyan (Goku, Gohan, Trunks and Vegeta), the more defined his hair is. Super Saiyan 2 hair has Grown defined hair.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:23 pm

By the standard being presented for Gohan - Trunks, by all means, could have been Ssj2 - as well as any other Super Saiyan with "defined looking" hair.

DBZ Man - The ability to jump "straight to Ssj2" is never done until Goku confronts Boo. Until that point, it always required a display of 2 seperate powerups.

Folken-sama · Post by **Folken-sama** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:47 am

For the "was Gohan SSJ2 against Dabra ?" thing...

Well, obviously he wasn't. As noted by Duo it would be strange for Toriyama to draw all the SSJ2 lightnings when Gohan went SSJ2 at the Tournament, and then to "forget" them a few pages later.

Also, when facing Dabra for the second time (with Babidi) Gohan went SSJ and he had only one strand of hair, but no lightnings. And exactly 4 pages before, there was the Vegeta vs Gokû fight, with lightnings everywhere. So Toriyama couldn't possibly forget that the SSJ2 had lightnings, it's just that Gohan wasn't SSJ2.

Also, we know that Gohan can reach SSJ2 only (or mainly, if you prefer) when he is ultra-angry. He was ultra-angry because of Videl and Spopovitch, that's why he could show the SSJ2 to Kibito. But the second time he faced Dabra he still had one strand of hair while SSJ, he remembered what Gokû said to him about being unstoppable when angry, and he stated that he wasn't as angry as the last time . How could he possibly be SSJ2 at that time ?? Gohan not angry, no lightnings = no SSJ2.

For me, these elements are the indisputable proofs that Gohan wasn't SSJ2 against Dabra, even with the "one strand" thing (plus, we'll never see again the "two strands" hairstyle...even when Gohan is in the world of kaioshin. Seriously, did he really need to go SSJ2 then ?)

The "one strand" simply became his new SSJ style. Duo may be right when he talks about the "relaxed SSJ" and the "warmed up SSJ", but it's also possible that Toriyama simply changed his way of drawing Gohan's hair. If you compare Gohan's base (= non-SSJ) hairstyle during the "High-school arc" and during the "Tournament/Babidi arc", it is different. At the beginning it was a bit longer behind, and it is all spiky after. So in Gohan probably cut his hair and it affected his SSJ hairstyle...But clearly, Toriyama wanted to change his SSJ appearance.

DBZ MAN · Post by **DBZ MAN** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:03 pm

Duo wrote:DBZ Man - The ability to jump "straight to Ssj2" is never done until Goku confronts Boo. Until that point, it always required a display of 2 seperate powerups.

Thats probably due to no one else being a super saiyan 2 apart from gohan but he actualy does jump straight to Super Saiyan 2 in the tournament against Kibito. It would seem silly for it to be something that cannot be achieved without training as it'snot exactly a metamorphosose.

And it would be strange for Toriyama not to include lightning on ascended saiyans even though he has recentaly included lighting around the normal super saiyan status (Neko Majin)

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:58 pm

Gohan actually took several steps before he was fully Ssj2. Read the 2-4 pages before that.

And Neko Majin Z (fortunately) isn't Canon to this discussion. If it was...then that would be one huge loop thrown that could never be resolved.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:56 pm

About the lightning, we have to remember that Toriyama was screwing up left, right and center with his artwork in this arc. For example: Kaioshin's potara's reverting to hoop earings and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta having lightning, but losing it when he gets angry at Goku and powers up.

DBZ MAN · Post by **DBZ MAN** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:18 am

And also he mostly forgets to fill in the black areas in his art.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:19 am

Comparing ants to an ox...

If this is just "some Toriyama mistake" then it is, by 100fold, his biggest mistake ever. One so big that it would have been corrected for the Kanzeban, easily.

Clearly, it was intention for Gohan to only be Ssj2 the one time, especially since he never forgot such a huge detail for anyone else at any other time.

Bejiita · Post by **Bejiita** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:52 am

Despite all that you have written Duo, I still think that Gohan was SSJ2 where I have stated so. They can jump straight to SSJ2, and I think an excusable reason for no lightning like when Gohan is in the Kaioshin planet could be Toriyama made a SSJ2 version of the full power SSJ, like when they are in the calm state when coming out of the Time chamber.

DBZ MAN · Post by **DBZ MAN** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:39 pm

Goku fights Kid Buu Super Saiyan 2 and there is no electricity even though this doesn't happen in the manga but I'm sure Toriyama would have said something. So I'm sure he was not to strict on the idea.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:11 pm

If Toriyama "wasn't strict" to this idea, then there would be other examples of this paradox. I don't really think there's a reason to start making up things Toriyama-sensei thought (no offense, or anything).

And if there was a way to "relax" in Ssj2 and make it so Lightning didn't appear, it would have been mentioned or there would have been an actual indication. If it was possible, it would have been Gohan in front of Kibito becaused he wasn't even fighting yet. Again, this lacks tangible foundation.

I'm not trying to tear you guys down or anything, but honestly, there isn't much backing up your side, other than grasping straws and assumptions.

Bejiita · Post by **Bejiita** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:46 am

Duo wrote:If Toriyama "wasn't strict" to this idea, then there would be other examples of this paradox. I don't really think there's a reason to start making up things Toriyama-sensei thought (no offense, or anything).

And if there was a way to "relax" in Ssj2 and make it so Lightning didn't appear, it would have been mentioned or there would have been an actual indication. If it was possible, it would have been Gohan in front of Kibito becaused he wasn't even fighting yet. Again, this lacks tangible foundation.

I'm not trying to tear you guys down or anything, but honestly, there isn't much backing up your side, other than grasping straws and assumptions.

You know, I'm actually starting to believe what you are saying is right.

I was just so damn sure that Gohan was a SSJ2 against Dabura and even when he's angry for Videl getting beaten.

I know he got weaker after 7 years of no training, although it's not stated how much weaker he has become, I didn't think his strength went down that much, also after being nearly killed by Spopovitch and Yamu, Kibito's healing must have made his power go up some more, so if he was able to go SSJ2 before that wouldn't it be even easier to do it after that? That's when he battled Dabura.

Even against Fat Buu, there's no lightning, but why on Earth would he not turn SSJ2? It doesn't really make sense, Goku even gave him a Senzu to eat before going in the ship so his power was all there, he did use some ki to try and destroy Buu's ball but he seemed to use even stronger attacks against Cell without losing any energy.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:55 am

I know exactly what you mean.

Honestly, there doesn't seem to be an outright logical reason why he would hold back from his Ssj2 form. It would (seemingly) allow him to defeat Dabra much easier and prevent him from being nearly killed by Boo in one attack.

But then there's a couple things that may be an indicator, small little details that may or may not explain it.

When Kibito is healing Gohan, he says... "He's still not back at full power...his Ki is immeasurable. I never thought there could be an earthling with such vast, pure energy...no wonder they wanted it!"

So, there's a possibility he wasn't able to fully restore Gohan's drained Ki, but also, before it shows Gohan fully healed, there are a couple frames showing Mighty Mask (Goten/Trunks) talking, so it may have just been a matter of a couple more seconds before he was healed.

Thats...a possibility.

Here is another. Gohan is standing in front of Dabra and Bobbidi, in his base form, as they exchange dialogue. Gohan is thinking back on something his father said to him after giving him the Senzu.

"Get angry, Gohan. Remember the time you fought Cell, and bring out all the power you have. You can't lose to anyone that way - anyone!"

While remember this, Gohan's face is dripping sweat, and he "replies" with this.

"I am angry...! But still...I can't be the way I was then..." and then he transforms into Super Saiyan.

This seems to indicate that Gohan is afraid to use Ssj2 in battle, because of how it makes him, and how it resulted in the death of his father. That, perhaps, is the reason. Gohan has come to a point, once again, where he won't use his full power because he's scared of himself. This is what makes his "Mightiest" powerup later so significant, because it totally removes that inhibition.

And why Gohan demonstrated the form for Kibito...would simply be that it wasn't a battle setting, I guess.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:07 pm

Unless lightning IS a sign of strength, and not SSJ2. Remember how many villains get lightning.

And how many times did Vegeta say Gohan was stronger when he fought Cell? Would that not go without saying if Gohan was in SSJ? I think Gohan was SSJ2, but quickly spent a significant amount of his energy, which in turn resulted in no more shiny effects.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:34 pm

The only Villain to display lightning was Cell's final incarnation, because he was a Super Saiyan 2 as well.

There's also Nappa...but that was long before this whole Super Saiyan thing became on issue.

Those aside, there doesn't seem to be a single other example.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:47 pm

Duo wrote:The only Villain to display lightning was Cell's final incarnation, because he was a Super Saiyan 2 as well.

There's also Nappa...but that was long before this whole Super Saiyan thing became on issue.

Those aside, there doesn't seem to be a single other example.

But you can't argue that Cell went SSJ2. He says it himself that he simply got an uber-boost from all the damage he took and, as a result, was more powerful than before. Otherwise he would have mentioned that he figured out how to transform like Gohan did.