Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Rocketman wrote:Goku is too valuable as a marketing and nostalgia tool to change in any way. He's frozen now, like Mickey Mouse or Bugs Bunny.
Unfortunately, yeah I have to agree with that. Can't help but feel that's the result of the series being "complete" for almost 20 years before Toriyama started adding to the story again. Goku's had enough time to cement himself as the icon (moreso than he already was by the manga's end) of the series, so with the relative revival of the story we're currently in, it seems that it would be silly for them to not give Goku all of this (justified or not) spotlight.
As much as that sucks, it is what it is. Speaking for myself, there's still more than plenty to get out of this franchise even with that unfortunate status quo in place. I would actually be impressed if I managed to become as jaded toward the state of the franchise as some folks around here any time in the near future.
He had a big chance for some development in the Cell saga, completely regretting his decision with Gohan, and then it goes nowhere.
I can't stress this enough, Gohan was the only one with the power to stop Cell so Goku's regret (which was a moment of temporary panic) is irrelevant.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ABED wrote:Then the Grand Elder's power up is utterly meaningless. The point of it was to pull out his hidden power. Notice that both Goku AND Vegeta receive massive power ups in this arc as well in order to allow them to fight Freeza. What to you constitutes realizing full potential? Being the main character and defeating the big bad
That's just it. The Guru's power up was meaningless. Even after it was done, Gohan still showed he had more hidden power. Goku's and Vegeta's Zenkai's brought out more than Gohan and Krillin's guru power up. If anything it seems Guru failed to bring it all out. I consider realizing your full potential when you actually master all of your hidden power. Ultimate Gohan is the best example as there can be no more rage boosts. No more hidden potential as it's all brought out and mastered. Rage boosts are not mastering or living up to your potential, it's only tapping into it. Continually having rage boosts is not putting a close on the hidden power. Even as the anime had said, they're mere glimpses at something bigger.
I don't think Kuririn got smarter and he always remained "cowardly". Kuririn's character is someone who is frightened to do something but pushes through because he's brave and a hero.
Krillin developed more varied techniques, he was the guy who made the plans when it was him, Bulma, and Gohan on Namek. I at least think he had a little subtle growing, as well as showing a dilemma around 18 was something new.
You keep saying that, but interesting to whom? Clearly millions find him interesting without needing to see him change.
Because he's the guy who fights the big bad. He beats up the previous guy and forces new faces to come in. You're possibly the only one I know who doesn't want Goku to develop in any way. Hell I've seen more comments he got worse after Freeza with the decisions he made.
Though generally real people don't change much. It's incredibly difficult.
Yes they do. Everyone changes and grows over time. Everyone is different from their kid years, teenage years, adult years, and senior years. Goku is the pretty much the same all the time.
It's only meaningless because Toriyama decided he had more even though his power was brought to the surface. He needed to justify keeping Gohan useful so he constantly says he has more. That's bad storytelling and you guys lap it up because you like the idea of passing the torch? What series has benefitted from a change of main character? The Grand Elder didn't fail to bring it all out, Toriyama kept giving Gohan more hidden power simply to justify Gohan's relevance in the fight. The story basically goes "Gohan's reached his potential, no, NOW he's reached his potential, no, NOW he's reached his potential." I think Gohan becoming a scholar is the better ending for his character than being the hero of the story. Goku didn't get the role of Earth's protector because he wanted it, it fell to him out of circumstance and that's what made it interesting to me.
Developing techniques isn't character growth. He's the same character, and every point you make is simply a change in circumstances, not character.
I'm fine with Goku developing, I just don't need it to find him interesting. I think it's simply a matter of taking the same character and plug him into different circumstances.
And I don't think people change all that much. Sure, they change from when they're kids, but once people reach adulthood, they generally stay the same.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ABED wrote:Then the Grand Elder's power up is utterly meaningless. The point of it was to pull out his hidden power. Notice that both Goku AND Vegeta receive massive power ups in this arc as well in order to allow them to fight Freeza. What to you constitutes realizing full potential? Being the main character and defeating the big bad
That's just it. The Guru's power up was meaningless. Even after it was done, Gohan still showed he had more hidden power. Goku's and Vegeta's Zenkai's brought out more than Gohan and Krillin's guru power up. If anything it seems Guru failed to bring it all out. I consider realizing your full potential when you actually master all of your hidden power. Ultimate Gohan is the best example as there can be no more rage boosts. No more hidden potential as it's all brought out and mastered. Rage boosts are not mastering or living up to your potential, it's only tapping into it. Continually having rage boosts is not putting a close on the hidden power. Even as the anime had said, they're mere glimpses at something bigger.
I don't think Kuririn got smarter and he always remained "cowardly". Kuririn's character is someone who is frightened to do something but pushes through because he's brave and a hero.
Krillin developed more varied techniques, he was the guy who made the plans when it was him, Bulma, and Gohan on Namek. I at least think he had a little subtle growing, as well as showing a dilemma around 18 was something new.
You keep saying that, but interesting to whom? Clearly millions find him interesting without needing to see him change.
Because he's the guy who fights the big bad. He beats up the previous guy and forces new faces to come in. You're possibly the only one I know who doesn't want Goku to develop in any way. Hell I've seen more comments he got worse after Freeza with the decisions he made.
Though generally real people don't change much. It's incredibly difficult.
Yes they do. Everyone changes and grows over time. Everyone is different from their kid years, teenage years, adult years, and senior years. Goku is the pretty much the same all the time.
It's only meaningless because Toriyama decided he had more even though his power was brought to the surface. He needed to justify keeping Gohan useful so he constantly says he has more. That's bad storytelling and you guys lap it up because you like the idea of passing the torch? What series has benefitted from a change of main character? The Grand Elder didn't fail to bring it all out, Toriyama kept giving Gohan more hidden power simply to justify Gohan's relevance in the fight. The story basically goes "Gohan's reached his potential, no, NOW he's reached his potential, no, NOW he's reached his potential." I think Gohan becoming a scholar is the better ending for his character than being the hero of the story. Goku didn't get the role of Earth's protector because he wanted it, it fell to him out of circumstance and that's what made it interesting to me.
Developing techniques isn't character growth. He's the same character, and every point you make is simply a change in circumstances, not character.
I'm fine with Goku developing, I just don't need it to find him interesting. I think it's simply a matter of taking the same character and plug him into different circumstances.
And I don't think people change all that much. Sure, they change from when they're kids, but once people reach adulthood, they generally stay the same.
I am not discussing passing the torch, nor was it my intent. I ain't getting into that kind of discussion.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Doctor. wrote:Goku's development ends right after he achieves the Super Saiyan transformation and "kills" Freeza. After that, some kind of character flaw is forced into him only for him to overcome it so that the status quo can be retained or some kind of flaw is forced into him and he doesn't overcome it, regressing as a character. He's literally a tool at this point, a plot device to beat opponent x and y in order to keep the story line, if there is one, going. He was a brilliantly written character, even from a critical standpoint, up until the end of the Freeza arc. Not anymore. His saving grace is that he's a very likable character still but some of his decisions in the Boo arc and in 'F' put that into question.
The same goes for Dragon Ball as a whole, really, just regressing in quality or doing the same thing over, and over, and over again without any change whatsoever, just being a repetitive mess of ideas that have potential but are not developed further than on a superficial level.
I couldn't agree more. Which is why after Freeza I stop liking Goku as much as a character. He just blends in and never really feels much different. It's just Goku being Goku. He had a big chance for some development in the Cell saga, completely regretting his decision with Gohan, and then it goes nowhere.
At least Battle of Gods tried to make an effort in improving Goku's characterization a bit, by focusing on an aspect of his character that wasn't really explored all that much in the past: his pride. I really wish other DB material took that approach too, instead of being just punch, kick, energy beam 24/7.
Doctor. wrote:At least Battle of Gods tried to make an effort in improving Goku's characterization a bit, by focusing on an aspect of his character that wasn't really explored all that much in the past: his pride. I really wish other DB material took that approach too, instead of being just punch, kick, energy beam 24/7.
I forgot about that. Though I never really considered Goku would have let his pride win out when the only way to compete with Beerus is to become a god. Kinda like how in FNF I don't buy Goku & Vegeta not teaming up as they have in dire situations. I can see them against it when they don't need to, but never can I see Goku be stubborn enough to turn down teaming up when there's no other choice.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Doctor. wrote:Goku's development ends right after he achieves the Super Saiyan transformation and "kills" Freeza. After that, some kind of character flaw is forced into him only for him to overcome it so that the status quo can be retained or some kind of flaw is forced into him and he doesn't overcome it, regressing as a character. He's literally a tool at this point, a plot device to beat opponent x and y in order to keep the story line, if there is one, going. He was a brilliantly written character, even from a critical standpoint, up until the end of the Freeza arc. Not anymore. His saving grace is that he's a very likable character still but some of his decisions in the Boo arc and in 'F' put that into question.
The same goes for Dragon Ball as a whole, really, just regressing in quality or doing the same thing over, and over, and over again without any change whatsoever, just being a repetitive mess of ideas that have potential but are not developed further than on a superficial level.
I couldn't agree more. Which is why after Freeza I stop liking Goku as much as a character. He just blends in and never really feels much different. It's just Goku being Goku. He had a big chance for some development in the Cell saga, completely regretting his decision with Gohan, and then it goes nowhere.
At least Battle of Gods tried to make an effort in improving Goku's characterization a bit, by focusing on an aspect of his character that wasn't really explored all that much in the past: his pride. I really wish other DB material took that approach too, instead of being just punch, kick, energy beam 24/7.
This is why I loved Battle of Gods so much. It was a more upfront and honest interpretation of DragonBall; we saw some of Goku's characterization, we saw Vegeta actually showing some sort of love for Bulma, etc. I'm not saying it has to be like that all the time, but I like having it once in awhile.
It helps add some humanity to the show - because it got real sterile sometimes later on.
ChiChiFan wrote:I disagree. This will always be debated but I think the series should've ended during Cell arc. I don't hate the Buu arc because it did start off good in the beginning but it was all over the place.
My problem with the Boo Saga is I think at that point Toriyama didn't know who to focus on. First it's fairly even with all of the heroes, then Vegeta, Gohan and Goku, then Goten, Trunks and Piccolo, then Gohan, then Goku and Vegeta. All that rotating in one saga was starting to get a little annoying to me because it was never that way in the previous sagas, where he had a consistent cast through and through.
