Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

[ekrolo2]

That doesn't really work as a justification as Gero worked for the Red Ribbon Army of his own free will and was building murder bots before Goku brought the whole organization down and he's intending to do it again which will cause decades of death and destruction for the Earth. He's not innocent and deserves to die. His timeline is also only different because of Trunks' direct intervention, why should Goku think everythings going to be different everywhere just because Trunks showed up this one time at this one specific place?

Not just because of the difference but also because Goku is now there to confront the Androids. Goku has turned villains around before. Many (like Piccolo and Vegeta) have become his allies. Why would he suddenly change his personality and become a "no mercy" type of fighter?

And that is precisely why I loathe and despise them throughout this entire arc.

Actually if they followed the plan you outlined Trunks' own timeline would still be screwed. Remember part of Trunks' motivation was to learn from Goku how to fight and destroy his own timeline's androids.

Both problems can be easily solved by: if you're not going to preemptively kill them, then make yourselves so strong none of them stand a snowballs chance in hell of winning. Seriously, Goku 3 years later isn't that much stronger than when he first comes back to Earth and neither is Future Trunks when he comes back to check on them. So why not just have them both go into the ROSAT, train like mad the whole time there, make themselves strong as hell then confront the androids. This way Goku and the others can keep their plot induced stupid- I mean integrity and still secure their victory against the Androids AND give Future Trunks the means to destroy his timelines version of them.

Hell, even if Goku preemptively killed Gero and stopped the threat, the ROSAT is still there, he can easily just go in with Future Trunks anyway and train with him or just let him go in on his own a couple times and get strong enough to win anyway.

[ABED]

It is, because Gero hadn't done anything wrong yet and was still innocent. My whole argument has been it would have been out of character for Goku/Z fighters do pre-emptively kill someone. They always wait for trouble to find them, not the other way around. And Goku has some moral justification for it; his timeline is already different than where Trunks came from (Trunks killed Freeza, not Goku. Goku won't die and can fight the androids).

He's not innocent. He worked for the Red Ribbon Army, and he's creating cyborgs with the explicit purpose of killing Goku. It's only out of character because Goku likes a fight and don't go searching for people to kill. Trouble typically finds him. It's not a moral reason.

[LuckyCat]

He's not innocent. He worked for the Red Ribbon Army, and he's creating cyborgs with the explicit purpose of killing Goku. It's only out of character because Goku likes a fight and don't go searching for people to kill. Trouble typically finds him. It's not a moral reason.

Just belonging to an organization doesn't make you a criminal, let alone one who deserves to be murdered. Especially since the RRA hadn't been active or even an army for near 20 years. When the androids/cyborgs were made was never established in the manga or anime. Androids 16, 17 and 18 may well have been breakthroughs developed in the 3 years after Trunks came.

And either way, we've both reached the conclusion that preemptively killing Gero would be out of character for Goku. Whether one agrees with Goku in saying "Gero didn't do anything wrong yet" is up to our own morals, but I personally think Goku is right.

[Lunatic Fringe]

And that is precisely why I loathe and despise them throughout this entire arc. They're stupidity caused the deaths of thousands upon thousands of people, got Goku & Future Trunks killed, nearly got Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Vegeta AND Gohan nearly killed as well and then they just wish everything back to normal and they never, not once stop to think "We.... kinda screwed up here, a LOT. We should probably be smarter in the future." But because this is Dragon Ball, the protagonists can't be aware of things any intelligent person is, they've gotta be moron who win just because their enemies are even stupider than them.

If ANY other show did this kind of crap, it would be mauled, ridiculed and laughed at forever for its piss poor writing. But not Dragon Ball because.... reasons....

Well, it's not like they all sat on their asses eating pork rinds until the Androids showed up. The alternative for laying waste to Gero was training and there's a good reason to believe that they had enough confidence for that to work. Remember, they had the foreknowledge of the impending threat and three whole years to prepare themselves while their Mirai counterparts were taken completely by surprise.

[ekrolo2]

And that is precisely why I loathe and despise them throughout this entire arc. They're stupidity caused the deaths of thousands upon thousands of people, got Goku & Future Trunks killed, nearly got Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Vegeta AND Gohan nearly killed as well and then they just wish everything back to normal and they never, not once stop to think "We.... kinda screwed up here, a LOT. We should probably be smarter in the future." But because this is Dragon Ball, the protagonists can't be aware of things any intelligent person is, they've gotta be moron who win just because their enemies are even stupider than them.

If ANY other show did this kind of crap, it would be mauled, ridiculed and laughed at forever for its piss poor writing. But not Dragon Ball because.... reasons....

Well, it's not like they all sat on their asses eating pork rinds until the Androids showed up. The alternative for laying waste to Gero was training and there's a good reason to believe that they had enough confidence for that to work. Remember, they had the foreknowledge of the impending threat and three whole years to prepare themselves while their Mirai counterparts were taken completely by surprise.

Bar Piccolo and Vegeta, no one really had any visible benefits of the 3 year training. Goku was still inferior to the Android, Gohan didn't turn into a Super Saiyan and even the two who did make massive gains didn't mean shit until Piccolo fused with Kami. If Goku and the others were serious about the Android threat, a weak ahead of time they would've gone into the ROSAT for extra insurance and the androids wouldn't be able to touch them. At worst the Goku & Vegeta would be disappointed they won so easily but it eliminates a whole ocean of problems they caused in the regular version.

[fadeddreams5]

You know, they could have just used the dragon balls to wish for all the resources in Gero's lab to vanish, or him to be locked out of it. Problem solved with no deaths involved. =D

[Ozotto]

Androids/ Cell was my favourite part in the DBZ Franchise.
Pretty much everything that happens around this time period is amazing.

All my favourite DBZ movies take place around here, Broly, 13, Bojack.

The cast of the Z fighters was at it's best during this arch, the character development was great.

- The introduction of Future Trunks.
- Going deeper into Vegeta's family interactions/ feelings.
- Gohan brings out his latent power, which was something constantly mentioned throughout DBZ.
- Piccolo is still strong enough to get fight time, which he kinda lost in the Buu arch.
- Many of the weaker Z fighters still show up and fight weaker forms of Cell, Cell Jr's, and assist Gohan in defeating Cell.

Plus Plan to eradicate the saiyans, and Ozotto story lines take place around this era.

Buu Saga was a bit different, I wasn't too happy with Saiyaman.
But we get epic SSJ3, Majin Vegeta, and Fusion so can't really complain about that arch too much.

[Lunatic Fringe]

Bar Piccolo and Vegeta, no one really had any visible benefits of the 3 year training. Goku was still inferior to the Android, Gohan didn't turn into a Super Saiyan and even the two who did make massive gains didn't mean shit until Piccolo fused with Kami. If Goku and the others were serious about the Android threat, a weak ahead of time they would've gone into the ROSAT for extra insurance and the androids wouldn't be able to touch them. At worst the Goku & Vegeta would be disappointed they won so easily but it eliminates a whole ocean of problems they caused in the regular version.

Why would they need the RoSAT? They had a whole three years to prepare. When the RoSAT is introduced, there's already pressure on them to get radically stronger in a short span of time. All they knew about the Androids was that they overcame their Mirai counterparts and the difference between defeat and victory was preparation. They were prepared to fight this time around, given the fact that they were warned. Besides, they had no idea how strong they would be exactly, they just knew that they wouldn't stand a chance at their present states and knew that training would be required. That was it. They couldn't use hindsight to tell how strong they would be and even if they could have precise, pinpoint, numerical stats on their own strength, which is possible with scouted technology, they can't exactly do that with the Androids since they don't harness Ki energy.

It was all a shot in the dark and they took a very reasonable approach in said shot in the dark; train until time is up. That's it. Besides, when they were training in the RoSAT, the participants had a good idea of what barriers they had to overcome to stand a chance against Cell. Again, they didn't have that here so they could've spent the RoSAT years doing the exact same training they would've done outside of it and still not stand that much of a chance when they confronted the Androids a whole three years later, because there wasn't any information they had with them to tell them how strong they needed to be. Does that make it worse on them for not killing Gero? Not really. Three years is a long time and a reasonable amount of time to get stronger. Look at what they were able to accomplish with training significantly shorter:

Goku: 1 week of 100G makes him more than a match for the Ginyu Force when he couldn't even survive against Saiyan Saga Vegeta.

Z-Fighters: Most were able to hold their own against the Saibamen when a year prior, they'd get killed in half a second.

Goku: Around half a year of training with North Kai lets him go toe to toe with Saiyan Saga Vegeta, at least until he transforms into Oozaru. He'd get trounced by a Saibamen w/o it.

Those are just a few examples but I'd say with past experience, they had enough confidence to think that simply training would be enough to thwart the Android threat.

[ekrolo2]

Bar Piccolo and Vegeta, no one really had any visible benefits of the 3 year training. Goku was still inferior to the Android, Gohan didn't turn into a Super Saiyan and even the two who did make massive gains didn't mean shit until Piccolo fused with Kami. If Goku and the others were serious about the Android threat, a weak ahead of time they would've gone into the ROSAT for extra insurance and the androids wouldn't be able to touch them. At worst the Goku & Vegeta would be disappointed they won so easily but it eliminates a whole ocean of problems they caused in the regular version.

Why would they need the RoSAT? They had a whole three years to prepare. When the RoSAT is introduced, there's already pressure on them to get radically stronger in a short span of time. All they knew about the Androids was that they overcame their Mirai counterparts and the difference between defeat and victory was preparation. They were prepared to fight this time around, given the fact that they were warned. Besides, they had no idea how strong they would be exactly, they just knew that they wouldn't stand a chance at their present states and knew that training would be required. That was it. They couldn't use hindsight to tell how strong they would be and even if they could have precise, pinpoint, numerical stats on their own strength, which is possible with scouted technology, they can't exactly do that with the Androids since they don't harness Ki energy.

It was all a shot in the dark and they took a very reasonable approach in said shot in the dark; train until time is up. That's it. Besides, when they were training in the RoSAT, the participants had a good idea of what barriers they had to overcome to stand a chance against Cell. Again, they didn't have that here so they could've spent the RoSAT years doing the exact same training they would've done outside of it and still not stand that much of a chance when they confronted the Androids a whole three years later, because there wasn't any information they had with them to tell them how strong they needed to be. Does that make it worse on them for not killing Gero? Not really. Three years is a long time and a reasonable amount of time to get stronger. Look at what they were able to accomplish with training significantly shorter:

Goku: 1 week of 100G makes him more than a match for the Ginyu Force when he couldn't even survive against Saiyan Saga Vegeta.

Z-Fighters: Most were able to hold their own against the Saibamen when a year prior, they'd get killed in half a second.

Goku: Around half a year of training with North Kai lets him go toe to toe with Saiyan Saga Vegeta, at least until he transforms into Oozaru. He'd get trounced by a Saibamen w/o it.

Those are just a few examples but I'd say with past experience, they had enough confidence to think that simply training would be enough to thwart the Android threat.

They also don't have enough information about the enemy to say that NOT going into the ROSAT won't be necessary. Given the fact Future Trunks who's probably not that far beneath post Yardrat Goku in strength couldn't do jack to even the weaker Future Androids, I think Goku would be smart enough to think at least spending a few months in the ROSAT to give himself a quick starting boost would be a good idea, especially given how Future Trunks goes out of his way to hype up the Androids power.

Again, Goku loses NOTHING by going into the ROSAT at least once during the three years, he gets a whole year where he can do some seriously intense training with or without a partner and then would have another 3 years of more relaxed training which feeds into what you said: preparation. They could've spent virtually two extra years with the ROSAT preparing for the Androids on top of the three natural ones given to them and they didn't do jack and shit with any of it.

The series itself shows that the three years were woefully insufficient for the present Androids 17 & 18 and then there's 16 who, up until Imperfect Cell fully restores his strength, is in a league of his own at that point. You can't even use the excuse from say the Saiyan Saga that they'd be too weak to survive in the ROSAT either and apply it to this instance. Neither Goku nor Future Trunks became any significantly stronger 3 years later and FT needs to power himself up to kill his own Androids so why wouldn't he and Goku just enter the ROSAT for a day to kill two birds with one stone right then and there?

[Lunatic Fringe]

They also don't have enough information about the enemy to say that NOT going into the ROSAT won't be necessary. Given the fact Future Trunks who's probably not that far beneath post Yardrat Goku in strength couldn't do jack to even the weaker Future Androids, I think Goku would be smart enough to think at least spending a few months in the ROSAT to give himself a quick starting boost would be a good idea, especially given how Future Trunks goes out of his way to hype up the Androids power.

Again, Goku loses NOTHING by going into the ROSAT at least once during the three years, he gets a whole year where he can do some seriously intense training with or without a partner and then would have another 3 years of more relaxed training which feeds into what you said: preparation. They could've spent virtually two extra years with the ROSAT preparing for the Androids on top of the three natural ones given to them and they didn't do jack and shit with any of it.

The series itself shows that the three years were woefully insufficient for the present Androids 17 & 18 and then there's 16 who, up until Imperfect Cell fully restores his strength, is in a league of his own at that point. You can't even use the excuse from say the Saiyan Saga that they'd be too weak to survive in the ROSAT either and apply it to this instance. Neither Goku nor Future Trunks became any significantly stronger 3 years later and FT needs to power himself up to kill his own Androids so why wouldn't he and Goku just enter the ROSAT for a day to kill two birds with one stone right then and there?

The RoSAT training we saw had a purpose beyond just having more time to train, it was having more time to train to overcome clearly defined boundaries. It was to reach a power beyond Super Saiyan so each pair, Trunks/Vegeta and Goku/Gohan, knew what was required of them going in. Like I said before, going in blindly to intensely train wouldn't mean that much with a precise game plan. It'd help them grow stronger, sure, but if they weren't going to be strong enough in three years, I doubt another year would've made a difference with the exact same training. That's why Vegeta doesn't really get any significant gains after the second time he goes in. They, of course, wouldn't be able to know that so not going in would'nt help them but without something clearly set in front of them, I don't blame them for not wasting their time.

[ekrolo2]

They also don't have enough information about the enemy to say that NOT going into the ROSAT won't be necessary. Given the fact Future Trunks who's probably not that far beneath post Yardrat Goku in strength couldn't do jack to even the weaker Future Androids, I think Goku would be smart enough to think at least spending a few months in the ROSAT to give himself a quick starting boost would be a good idea, especially given how Future Trunks goes out of his way to hype up the Androids power.

Again, Goku loses NOTHING by going into the ROSAT at least once during the three years, he gets a whole year where he can do some seriously intense training with or without a partner and then would have another 3 years of more relaxed training which feeds into what you said: preparation. They could've spent virtually two extra years with the ROSAT preparing for the Androids on top of the three natural ones given to them and they didn't do jack and shit with any of it.

The series itself shows that the three years were woefully insufficient for the present Androids 17 & 18 and then there's 16 who, up until Imperfect Cell fully restores his strength, is in a league of his own at that point. You can't even use the excuse from say the Saiyan Saga that they'd be too weak to survive in the ROSAT either and apply it to this instance. Neither Goku nor Future Trunks became any significantly stronger 3 years later and FT needs to power himself up to kill his own Androids so why wouldn't he and Goku just enter the ROSAT for a day to kill two birds with one stone right then and there?

The RoSAT training we saw had a purpose beyond just having more time to train, it was having more time to train to overcome clearly defined boundaries. It was to reach a power beyond Super Saiyan so each pair, Trunks/Vegeta and Goku/Gohan, knew what was required of them going in. Like I said before, going in blindly to intensely train wouldn't mean that much with a precise game plan. It'd help them grow stronger, sure, but if they weren't going to be strong enough in three years, I doubt another year would've made a difference with the exact same training. That's why Vegeta doesn't really get any significant gains after the second time he goes in. They, of course, wouldn't be able to know that so not going in would'nt help them but without something clearly set in front of them, I don't blame them for not wasting their time.

Except the year DID make a difference! The only people who vastly improved over the three years were Vegeta (who probably trained like a maniac) and Piccolo. Goku is virtually the same strength as before and I didn't see Gohan turning Super Saiyan before the ROSAT. Hell, even Piccolo's gain is ultimately worthless until he fuses with Kami and he STILL can only stalemate 17 with 16 being superior to him even after that.

Once Goku went into the ROSAT his power exploded, giving him far superior gains than his three years of relaxed training did on Earth. Same thing for basically everyone who went in there, clearly showing that one year in the ROSATs intense training is worth far more than three relaxed years training on Earth. Vegeta & Trunks also gained significant power after the first ROSAT trip, giving them such a boost they went from being inferior to all the Androids and Piccolo to being able to beat the hell out of Cell with utter ease. The only reason they didn't get much stronger after the second trip is because their bodies were 1) either too tired from doing such intense training so quickly again or 2) their bodies adapted to it so the returns from the ROSAT training were greatly diminished.

If they were really so concerned about preparation as you think they were, then they would've gone into the ROSAT at least once during those three years to train in there and give themselves an extra boost just in-case. They're perfectly willing to basically cheat when the odds are stacked against them as shown when Cell & the Androids leave them in the dust so I really don't see why them deciding a week ahead of Gero's arrival why not to go into the ROSAT. Goku & Gohan would be at the exact same strength levels they were when they entered later on so who cares? What do they lose by going in there for extra preparation time & better training conditions?

[Lunatic Fringe]

Except the year DID make a difference! The only people who vastly improved over the three years were Vegeta (who probably trained like a maniac) and Piccolo. Goku is virtually the same strength as before and I didn't see Gohan turning Super Saiyan before the ROSAT. Hell, even Piccolo's gain is ultimately worthless until he fuses with Kami and he STILL can only stalemate 17 with 16 being superior to him even after that.

Once Goku went into the ROSAT his power exploded, giving him far superior gains than his three years of relaxed training did on Earth. Same thing for basically everyone who went in there, clearly showing that one year in the ROSATs intense training is worth far more than three relaxed years training on Earth. Vegeta & Trunks also gained significant power after the first ROSAT trip, giving them such a boost they went from being inferior to all the Androids and Piccolo to being able to beat the hell out of Cell with utter ease. The only reason they didn't get much stronger after the second trip is because their bodies were 1) either too tired from doing such intense training so quickly again or 2) their bodies adapted to it so the returns from the ROSAT training were greatly diminished.

If they were really so concerned about preparation as you think they were, then they would've gone into the ROSAT at least once during those three years to train in there and give themselves an extra boost just in-case. They're perfectly willing to basically cheat when the odds are stacked against them as shown when Cell & the Androids leave them in the dust so I really don't see why them deciding a week ahead of Gero's arrival why not to go into the ROSAT. Goku & Gohan would be at the exact same strength levels they were when they entered later on so who cares? What do they lose by going in there for extra preparation time & better training conditions?

Let me try to explain it you like this: in Scenario A, a group of students is required to turn in a project in their Sociology class. The professor gives them a rubric that defines precisely what the teacher expects from them in order to get an A. It also includes the parameters that would earn them a lower mark. In Scenario B, the exact same scenario takes place except that the students get no rubric. Now, which group do you think will most likely get the higher mark, the one with the rubric or the one WITHOUT one?

Obviously, it'd be the one with the rubric because they know EXACTLY how to approach the project. That's essentially what takes place when the RoSAT training happens. They have a good idea on what sort of boundaries they need to ascend because of their power being put to the test directly against the threat they want to get rid of. It all boils down to getting stronger than a Super Saiyan and with that in mind, Trunk, Vegeta, Gohan, and Goku are able to gain similar gains with Goku and Gohan taking it a step further. Meanwhile, they had little to no information to base their training off of to defeat the Androids and thus, we see characters making much more significant gains because most likely, they just went at it in radically different approaches that saw great results for one person(Vegeta for instance) and not so much for another(Goku in this instance). No one's on the same page because there's no central idea of what HAS to be done. It's not the RoSAT that makes them stronger, it's knowing what to do with that time that makes the difference. That's why Goku made such gains and why Vegeta, the second time he went in, didn't gain much because he approached his training the same way, which is likely what would've happened if they went in the RoSAT before the Androids showed up in their timeline. Sure, they could've tried a different approach but in their ignorance and lack of foresight, they wouldn't know that what they were doing was "wrong".

[ekrolo2]

Except the year DID make a difference! The only people who vastly improved over the three years were Vegeta (who probably trained like a maniac) and Piccolo. Goku is virtually the same strength as before and I didn't see Gohan turning Super Saiyan before the ROSAT. Hell, even Piccolo's gain is ultimately worthless until he fuses with Kami and he STILL can only stalemate 17 with 16 being superior to him even after that.

Once Goku went into the ROSAT his power exploded, giving him far superior gains than his three years of relaxed training did on Earth. Same thing for basically everyone who went in there, clearly showing that one year in the ROSATs intense training is worth far more than three relaxed years training on Earth. Vegeta & Trunks also gained significant power after the first ROSAT trip, giving them such a boost they went from being inferior to all the Androids and Piccolo to being able to beat the hell out of Cell with utter ease. The only reason they didn't get much stronger after the second trip is because their bodies were 1) either too tired from doing such intense training so quickly again or 2) their bodies adapted to it so the returns from the ROSAT training were greatly diminished.

If they were really so concerned about preparation as you think they were, then they would've gone into the ROSAT at least once during those three years to train in there and give themselves an extra boost just in-case. They're perfectly willing to basically cheat when the odds are stacked against them as shown when Cell & the Androids leave them in the dust so I really don't see why them deciding a week ahead of Gero's arrival why not to go into the ROSAT. Goku & Gohan would be at the exact same strength levels they were when they entered later on so who cares? What do they lose by going in there for extra preparation time & better training conditions?

Let me try to explain it you like this: in Scenario A, a group of students is required to turn in a project in their Sociology class. The professor gives them a rubric that defines precisely what the teacher expects from them in order to get an A. It also includes the parameters that would earn them a lower mark. In Scenario B, the exact same scenario takes place except that the students get no rubric. Now, which group do you think will most likely get the higher mark, the one with the rubric or the one WITHOUT one?

Obviously, it'd be the one with the rubric because they know EXACTLY how to approach the project. That's essentially what takes place when the RoSAT training happens. They have a good idea on what sort of boundaries they need to ascend because of their power being put to the test directly against the threat they want to get rid of. It all boils down to getting stronger than a Super Saiyan and with that in mind, Trunk, Vegeta, Gohan, and Goku are able to gain similar gains with Goku and Gohan taking it a step further. Meanwhile, they had little to no information to base their training off of to defeat the Androids and thus, we see characters making much more significant gains because most likely, they just went at it in radically different approaches that saw great results for one person(Vegeta for instance) and not so much for another(Goku in this instance). No one's on the same page because there's no central idea of what HAS to be done. It's not the RoSAT that makes them stronger, it's knowing what to do with that time that makes the difference. That's why Goku made such gains and why Vegeta, the second time he went in, didn't gain much because he approached his training the same way, which is likely what would've happened if they went in the RoSAT before the Androids showed up in their timeline. Sure, they could've tried a different approach but in their ignorance and lack of foresight, they wouldn't know that what they were doing was "wrong".

I can see the reasoning behind that theory but the series does kind of conflict with it at certain points. He didn't know the exact parameters of how strong Nappa or Vegeta were either, all he knew is they were lots stronger than Raditz, King Kai and basically everyone we've met up until that point. That doesn't magically hinder his training to fight them external issues caused that like needing to spend months on end just getting to King Kai's in the first place, if he got there in a matter of days or weeks he'd have most likely have been able to stalemate Vegeta without any Kaio-Ken boost. However, his vagueness on their exact powers doesn't hinder his ability, it probably motivates him to train harder just in-case.

Then we have him training during his trip to Namek, once more, Goku only has a really vague idea of Freeza's strength and he trains like mad there as well, probably boosting his power by over ten times depending on how much of a boost he got from his post Vegeta fight zenkai. Regardless of not having a defined bar to get himself over (except maybe Vegeta) he utilizes his training time well and ends up far superior to most of the Ginyu force without even knowing it.

But to work in conjunction with your theory for a moment, Trunks actually does have a good framework for the strength of the Androids by comparing them to Freeza. He's able to defeat both Freeza and Cold with utter easer where as even the weaker Androids from the future whoop his ass just as easily. He also can draw comparisons thanks to Future Gohan who's power he's probably well aware of and if we're working of the manga version of the Future Trunks special, Gohan's maximum not even amount to half the Androids strength should give him a good range for their maximum power. His primary objective in that time-line, along with saving it, is to either become strong enough to kill his own murder bots or at the very least find a way to shut them off.

Really, if there's anyone who should be jumping into the ROSAT first and foremost, its Future Trunks. Him going back in there with say Goku or even alone, getting the practice in then returning to his own timeline to check the results and report back to the others would fit with your theory of them requiring a certain bar to help improve their training gains over. That way, even if Goku's fight with 19 goes south like it did in the regular time-line, a ROSAT enhanced Piccolo (perhaps even Kamicolo), Gohan and Future Trunks would be there to compensate for it.

Ultimately, I can see your point and there's definitely evidence to support it, but I think there are just as many instances where the people training don't have a clear idea of how strong they need to be to overcome their enemies during training.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

To the question? So far as indicating that this series was still running because there was cash money to be made? Most certainly, even if Dragon Ball had already lost sight of its original vision with Freeza. This in no way suggests that it is without merit, but most of that merit stems from points that frankly could have been accomplished no matter where Toriyama took his new antagonists from. Vegeta goes Super Saiyan? Piccolo having to admit he cares about the Earth's greater good by reuniting with Kami to protect it? Super Saiyan surpassed? Gohan's power realized? Not a lot of robots on that list. The androids, stemming from borderline fake continuity and only happening because our strongest heroes want them to, come off as purest plot fuel. With the one interruption of Imperfect Cell, the characters talk around them. Trunks is of course the one shining exception to this, coming from what amounts to another world and thus a character that in nearly all aspects the existing storyline simply could not produce. Nor can I fault the sudden contrast the RoSaT's suddenly reintroducing martial artist sensibilities creates- it is a plot convenience of the highest and most tailored order, but a lot of character molding comes out of it.

You might argue that Buu does entirely the same thing, merely acting as any old threat for character growth to funnel out of, but Buu is never set up as anything else, and his wild eccentricity basically acknowledges it- he is supposed to entertain in a vacuum.

On the idea of using the RoSaT prior to #19 and #20's showing up, I agree that going in with no goals would have rendered it wasted. Mostly because all the robots powers were so nebulous, Trunks really gave them nothing to go on there

[ABED]

The androids, stemming from borderline fake continuity and only happening because our strongest heroes want them to, come off as purest plot fuel

But them letting the enemy happen is in character. I don't know why you knock "plot fuel" whatever that is, and what is fake continuity?

Trunks really gave them nothing to go on there

How didn't he? How do you explain their power better than he did?

[Deathbringer]

If the android arc had actually just used 19 & 20 as the main villains I wonder how it would have gone down, what was Toriyama actually planning to do with those characters, did he even intend for no. 20 to be Gero all along? Following that, what plans did he have for 17 & 18 before they were made into side villains? Was the ending with Gohan's rage breaking always going to happen regardless of the villain? Hell, what were his plans for future Trunks? What if Cell remained imperfect and teamed up with 17 & 18? So many questions that could have easily been the downfall of the series if Toriyama had different editors. I mean when I learned that 19 & 20 were going to be the villains I thought "really?" but now I start to think of what Toriyama had planned for them, it's unlikely we'll ever know.

Proper answer to the actual OP: In the form as we know it now, the Android saga certainly felt like a backwards step from Freeza, but it definitely also felt like it was building up to something, also seeing the whole team back on Earth for the first time since the Saiyan saga was great to see. Yes the RoSaT will forever go down in history as one of the biggest asspulls in Dragon Ball but the arc still kind of functions. Of course I have noticed that your perception of the arc changes if you read/watch it depending on whether you know that it eventually leads to Cell and if you know the editor's suggestions that changed the story.

[ABED]

I have noticed that your perception of the arc changes if you read/watch it depending on whether you know that it eventually leads to Cell and if you know the editor's suggestions that changed the story.

Not really in my experience. It hasn't affect my enjoyment of the story. There are plenty of examples of stories being affected in ways like this or in similar manners, many of them for the better.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

The world will never know!

The androids, stemming from borderline fake continuity and only happening because our strongest heroes want them to, come off as purest plot fuel

But them letting the enemy happen is in character. I don't know why you knock "plot fuel" whatever that is, and what is fake continuity?

True. But you can also make the argument that if the only enemies left for your characters to fight are ones of their own creation, than there are no more worthwhile stories to tell, since your characters are both powerful enough to freely make those decisions, and the resulting battles lose weight by stemming back to their mistakes. I might not wholeheartedly agree with it, but it is a very easy suggestion that your story is exhausted.

As for "plot fuel", every arc of Dragon Ball, with the possible exception of Piccolo, builds off previous material, to create the illusion that the story is going somewhere. The Androids shatter that illusion by pretending to revive a twenty year old plot point: Gero's Red Ribbon membership says nothing about the Army or himself, it is a tame attempt to suggest that these otherwise arbitrary super robots have some scant basis in prior events. Of course, all of the prior arcs had spotty connections, Piccolo emerges from the ether much as Gero does, and Vegeta is the strongest in the universe until suddenly he is nowhere close. Freeza just took the stakes so high and covered so much character ground that Toriyama no longer had a natural jumping-off point, but a gangbusters manga he needed to keep drawing.

Trunks really gave them nothing to go on there

How didn't he? How do you explain their power better than he did?[/quote]

I am not really sure if he could have. The point is that "stronger than the Super Saiyan from the future standing in front of me" is a poor benchmark in a world where characters so routinely dwarf each other. There is no way for the heroes to have any idea of the fighting power they should shoot for.

[TheGmGoken]

I don't see how it marked as the downfall when a great portion of fanart whateva it's official or fan art is from that era. If anything it represents DBZ at its peak of popularity.

[ABED]

True. But you can also make the argument that if the only enemies left for your characters to fight are ones of their own creation, than there are no more worthwhile stories to tell, since your characters are both powerful enough to freely make those decisions, and the resulting battles lose weight by stemming back to their mistakes. I might not wholeheartedly agree with it, but it is a very easy suggestion that your story is exhausted.

I don't agree with that at all, people can often times be their own worst enemy. In the movies, Tony Stark's enemies are often the result of his carelessness.

As for "plot fuel", every arc of Dragon Ball, with the possible exception of Piccolo, builds off previous material, to create the illusion that the story is going somewhere. The Androids shatter that illusion by pretending to revive a twenty year old plot point: Gero's Red Ribbon membership says nothing about the Army or himself, it is a tame attempt to suggest that these otherwise arbitrary super robots have some scant basis in prior events. Of course, all of the prior arcs had spotty connections, Piccolo emerges from the ether much as Gero does, and Vegeta is the strongest in the universe until suddenly he is nowhere close. Freeza just took the stakes so high and covered so much character ground that Toriyama no longer had a natural jumping-off point, but a gangbusters manga he needed to keep drawing.

Where is it written that the enemies always have to build off previous material? You keep using terms like "illusion" and "pretend". Gero's RR membership automatically gives him a backstory in numerous ways. Vegeta wasn't confirmed to be the strongest. If he made that proclamation, he's the villain and prone to boasting, you can't take his word for it.

There is no way for the heroes to have any idea of the fighting power they should shoot for.

And nothing he said could've helped other than "They're REEEEEEAAAALLLLLYYYYY strong!" They were in the same predicament before the Saiyans arrived. All they knew is that Vegeta and Nappa were much stronger than Raditz. How much? Who knew, the only thing they could do is try as hard as they could to get stronger.