Cell Saga Vegeta

[ABED]

Skynet wasn't used for evil. It was created and was sentient, IT chose to destroy humanity, not its creators. The creators were simply creating a defense system.

You only say that because you know that to be the case. You have that information and you know it to be accurate. Trunks and the gang don't really have that information when Trunks talks to Goku. Trunks had never met Gero, just his androids, and his info regarding Gero or his possible motivations are very limited. All he knew on the subject came from the androids themselves since he never even knew his lab and, if they aren't doing what they are supposed to, there's no way to tell if whatever they say or do is completely accurate and consistent with what Gero wanted.

What do you think a human from Skynet's future would think if all he knew was skynet and the fee scraps of info he had regarding skynet lead him to believe that skynet had been built as a doomsday weapon to kill off humanity? He would probably assume that to be true but he would be wrong.

My point is they can make an accurate assessment based on those assumptions

Skynet wasn't built in secret. It was built with government funding. Regardless, someone from the future would be justified in destroyed Cyberdyne Systems. Probably not killing its employees, but certainly stopping Skynet's creation.

Another difference between this and Terminator is we don't know how Bulma got her information about the cyborgs and Dr. Gero, so we don't know the extent to Trunks' or future Bulma's knowledge on their creation.

[rereboy]

My point is they can make an accurate assessment based on those assumptions

Their assumption can turn out to be correct, just like it can turn out to be wrong because there's no detailed information. That's the problem with assumptions and why generally people don't harm others or reach drastic decisions based on assumptions.

Skynet wasn't built in secret. It was built with government funding. Regardless, someone from the future would be justified in destroyed Cyberdyne Systems. Probably not killing its employees, but certainly stopping Skynet's creation.

If there is no evidence of such funding and motivation, for someone in skynet's future it's the same as if it was built in secret. And people from the future fighting off skynet was never in question, just like Future Trunks fighting off the Future Androids was never in question.

Another difference between this and Terminator is we don't know how Bulma got her information about the cyborgs and Dr. Gero, so we don't know the extent to Trunks' or future Bulma's knowledge on their creation.

Irrelevant. We know what Goku and the others knew (from Trunks) and that's what is relevant for the discussion at hand since what was being discussed was the logic and morality of not going after Gero at that time because "he hadn't done nothing yet".

[ABED]

My point is they can make an accurate assessment based on those assumptions

Their assumption can turn out to be correct, just like it can turn out to be wrong because there's no detailed information. That's the problem with assumptions and why generally people don't harm others or reach drastic decisions based on assumptions.

Skynet wasn't built in secret. It was built with government funding. Regardless, someone from the future would be justified in destroyed Cyberdyne Systems. Probably not killing its employees, but certainly stopping Skynet's creation.

If there is no evidence of such funding and motivation, for someone in skynet's future it's the same as if it was built in secret. And people from the future fighting off skinet was never in question, just like Future Trunks fighting off the Future Androids was never in question.

Another difference between this and Terminator is we don't know how Bulma got her information about the cyborgs and Dr. Gero, so we don't know the extent to Trunks' or future Bulma's knowledge on their creation.

Irrelevant. We know what Goku and the others knew (from Trunks) and that's what is relevant for the discussion at hand since what was being discussed was the logic and morality of not going after Gero at that time because "he hadn't done nothing yet".

There is evidence. Everyone knows the story, Reese tells Sarah and Sarah tells John that Skynet was a defense network that became self aware.

It is relevant to the story as Toriyama wrote that Bulma somehow has information about the creation of the cyborgs even though they were created in secret. How does he know who created them?

[rereboy]

There is evidence. Everyone knows the story, Reese tells Sarah and Sarah tells John that Skynet was a defense network that became self aware.

It is relevant to the story as Toriyama wrote that Bulma somehow has information about the creation of the cyborgs even though they were created in secret.

You know that because, as the spectator, you know the whole story. The characters themselves are people living in their world without that privileged knowledge, they don't know they are in a story. If later on the franchise, it was revealed that the resistance, and therefore Reese, had made the wrong assumptions regarding Skynet due to the lack of detailed information in the future, Reese, at that moment, would still be as sure about that info as he is in the unaltered movie because he is just a character of that world.

You have to put yourself in the character's place and look at things from his perspective, from his knowledge, not from the spectator's privileged seat.

[ABED]

There is evidence. Everyone knows the story, Reese tells Sarah and Sarah tells John that Skynet was a defense network that became self aware.

It is relevant to the story as Toriyama wrote that Bulma somehow has information about the creation of the cyborgs even though they were created in secret.

You know that because, as the spectator, you know the whole story. The characters themselves are people living in their world without that privileged knowledge. If later on the franchise, it was revealed that the resistance, and therefore Reese, had made the wrong assumptions regarding Skynet due to the lack of detailed information in the future, Reese, at that moment, would still be as sure about that info as he is in the unaltered movie because he is just a character of that world.

You have to put yourself in the character's place and look at thing from his perspective, from his knowledge, not from the spectator's privileged seat.

He didn't make that assumption, it was well known, Reese knew the truth about Skynet. It was a defense system that became self aware. That knowledge wasn't privileged. The only thing they lacked was all the details such as when it happened and who exactly created it. In Terminator 2, the T800 tells John the specifics and everything Reese said was true. Everyone would know Skynet was the problem for a number of reasons. For one, Skynet went online on August 4 and Judgment Day was the 29th. In between that time, people would notice Skynet spreading. And half of the world survived Judgment Day, so the information about its cause would spread.

I am putting myself in both places, but as a reader, doesn't it strike you as weird that Trunks knows who created the cyborgs?

[rereboy]

He didn't make that assumption, it was well known, Reese knew the truth about Skynet. It was a defense system that became self aware. That knowledge wasn't privileged. The only thing they lacked was all the details such as when it happened and who exactly created it. In Terminator 2, the T800 tells John the specifics and everything Reese said was true. Everyone would know Skynet was the problem for a number of reasons. For one, Skynet went online on August 4 and Judgment Day was the 29th. In between that time, people would notice Skynet spreading. And half of the world survived Judgment Day, so the information about its cause would spread.

Half of the world isn't alive when Reese is alive and all the previous world, including his info, is in ruin and being wiped out by the day, more and more lives and knowledge being lost forever. You have no idea of how much was lost, what remained and how much of what remained. You just know, as a spectator, that what Reese said turned out to be correct, while forgetting that he could have just as easily turn out to be incorrect if it was later revealed that what he said were assumptions based on just pieces of information.

I am putting myself in both places, but as a reader, doesn't it strike you as weird that Trunks knows who created the cyborgs?

The androids had the the RR flag and they were certainly asked by people, including the gang, who they were and where they came from, to which they probably were given a short reply, and Gohan and Trunks survived encounters with them, so, no.

[Fionordequester]

The point isn't how Gero exactly was, but rather how he could be.

Goku and the gang had zero information regarding him except that he worked with the RR army and that in a few years time some androids of his would wreck the planet. There's no doubt that Gero was evil for anyone that already knows the entire story, but at that moment in time, when Trunks reveals this info to Goku, can they reach that conclusion? No. Working for the RR army doesn't mean he was evil because there's plenty of explanations for that that don't require him to be evil or agreeing with the RR army and, as for his androids, they couldn't even be sure that the androids were doing exactly what he had planned them to do, that they weren't just malfunctioning, or that Gero had already started his plans to build them.

That is the point, that at that moment those were just assumptions. Only when, later in the story, we actually meet Gero and his androids the fact that he is evil becomes more than just an assumption but even then, regarding his time in RR and his motivations, all we still have are just assumptions.

Hmm, good point.

(Also, we don't need bible quotes to know that bad people are people too.)

Oh don't worry, I'm not proslytizing. I just felt like sharing something I felt summed up my thought process really well.

Yes, it's trite, and he's not in the story long enough nor important enough to it for the bit of trivia to have any meaning.

Fair enough. Can't say it's not realistic though!

Except Gus was the central antagonist for seasons 3 and 4. Dr. Gero is a secondary character who comes and goes in the story.

Well sure, they serve different roles, but I thought we were talking about things from an in-universe perspective? About what kind of motivation makes more sense for Dr. Gero? If that's not correct, then I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

If your passion in life and the thing you cared for the most, for instance, your life's work, was destroyed, you would be pissed. I fail to see how the death of a son and the destruction of one's life's work aren't comparable.

.

What exactly would his life's work be though, if not his science? I mean, it's not like in Breaking Bad, where Walter White fought tooth and nail to create his own drug empire. As far as I can tell, Dr. Gero didn't really lose anything he couldn't just replace. Why doesn't he just, you know, move on to work for another illegal army? Surely there wouldn't be any absence of illegal mob operations that wouldn't appreciate his talents? And obviously funding and supplies were never that much of an issue given what he ends up making in the Android saga, all by himself.

And that's why his "Life's dream" and "the death of his son" is not comparable to me. His loved ones are the one thing he CAN'T bring back. He CAN'T just rebuild them, as hard as he may have tried with Android #16 (and he may very well have tried). He just can't "repair" that loss the same way he could with his machines or his military organization. THAT'S why there's so much significance behind that.

I fail to see how those Bible quotes apply.

Oh, they were just quotes that I thought neatly summed up my opinion on why Dr. Gero wanting to avenge his son made sense. I remember you quoting some famous comedian you really like once (Jim Belushi was it? Or maybe George Carlin? I don't remember), and this isn't any different .

[ABED]

Oh, they were just quotes that I thought neatly summed up my opinion on why Dr. Gero wanting to avenge his son made sense. I remember you quoting some famous comedian you really like once (Jim Belushi was it? Or maybe George Carlin? I don't remember), and this isn't any different

No, I mean how do they apply in this context, not why are you quoting the Bible.

You have no idea of how much was lost, what remained and how much of what remained.

This isn't even conjecture, this is just wrong. Reese was correct.

while forgetting that he could have just as easily turn out to be incorrect if it was later revealed that what he said were assumptions based on just pieces of information.

But it wasn't, your statement is completely arbitrary.

The androids had the the RR flag and they were certainly asked by people, including the gang, who they were and where they came from, to which they probably were given a short reply, and Gohan and Trunks survived encounters with them, so, no.

Huh? Gohan and Trunks know of the RRA, but Dr. Gero wasn't someone they would likely know, and what gang? The motorcycle gang that 17 and 18 ran off the road with the ice cream truck?

No one asked and survived the Cyborgs in Trunks' timeline.

Why doesn't he just, you know, move on to work for another illegal army?

Criminal psychology is very different. Many have weird codes of honor.

He just can't "repair" that loss the same way he could with his machines or his military organization. THAT'S why there's so much significance behind that.

He can't repair the army either. It's gone. It wouldn't be the same.

About what kind of motivation makes more sense for Dr. Gero? If that's not correct, then I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

They both make sense, that was never the issue. It's about what works better in the story. What made Gus a great villain had little to do with his backstory. He was interesting and frightening. What made him interesting immediately is that he was hiding in plain sight. He had the vinear of a legitimate friendly businessman, but underneath it all was a cold, calculating, ruthless man who wasn't afraid of getting his own hands dirty. Dr. Gero is just a guy who created the antagonists. He doesn't stay around that long, and mostly serves the purpose of explaining how the Cyborgs were created and why they are after Goku. The audience doesn't have any connection to a kid we'll never see, so there's little emotional impact. However, long time viewers remember that Goku took down the entire Red Ribbon Army so there's an emotional resonance.

You bring up Breaking Bad, but look at Anson Fullerton from Burn Notice. That's another great antagonist. The hero didn't kill Anson's son. The reason Anson dislikes Michael is because Michael took down everything that took him DECADES to build. His reason for creating the organization was to do the jobs that the government and legit agencies didn't or wouldn't do. There you have the philosophy behind his actions. You can understand why he does what he does. It's original and interesting, not to mention Jerri Burns is a weasel and awesome in the role. I think something akin to that can work for Gero instead of creating a son out of thin air.

[MajinMan]

Cell Arc Vegeta is extremely annoying at times. He has his moments(super saiyan transformation, beating up Semi Perfect Cell, final flash), but other than that he is just stroking himself the whole arc. He's much better in every other arc including Super and the new movies.

[ABED]

Cell Arc Vegeta is extremely annoying at times. He has his moments(super saiyan transformation, beating up Semi Perfect Cell, final flash), but other than that he is just stroking himself the whole arc. He's much better in every other arc including Super and the new movies.

But that's fine if that's the intention. He's supposed to be a cocky a-hole.

[Gorou]

Personally, he has always bothered me much more the passive and selfish attitude of Goku, rather than that of Vegeta in this portion of the manga. We knew perfectly that does not fight for the sake of the Earth, but only for himself, and that was not the hero of the situation. Goku Instead, the planet where he grew up and where they loved ones live, it has endangered an infinite number of times for his personal pleasure... oh well.

However, there is nothing to abnormal, or more stupid, in this Vegeta. All his actions are consistent with its character.

The comparison with the Vegeta of Namek is inconsistent, because that context was totally different. Then, analyzing things from a non omniscient view point , there is much more logic in its decision to let transform Cell, which in urging a Freeza, not willing to do so, to transform

[Gaffer Tape]

See, I disagree. I've never thought Vegeta's decision to taunt Freeza into transforming was anything but logical. And that's because Vegeta and I are on the same page in regards to what's wrong with the Freeza fight in general: everything before the endgame is pointless because Freeza can transform at will, unlike Cell or Boo. And that means that, unless you get really lucky and manage to kill him instantly, whenever Freeza feels threatened, he's just going to transform anyway, making all of your previous efforts useless... which is exactly what he ends up doing. So Vegeta just doesn't want to waste his time or his energy, and I can't say I blame him. I just wish Vegeta had known Freeza had four forms. Maybe we could have skipped the rest of that crap too. =P

[Gorou]

There was still no reason to instigate Freeza to trasform, since him already start by an incredibly disadvantageous condition and this only because he believed he could quickly become super sayan.
Against Cell was in a clear advantage, and also had the Final Flash as a final weapon, which would be lethal if only Cell was unable to regenerate (which he did not know).

We paraphrase it all: What is the most stupid?
Instigating an already superior opponent to transform based to the hope of becoming a super Saiyan or allow a clearly inferior opponent to transform, that even if he had surpassing his power (he had no certainties to say) could kill or hurt with a secret weapon in case of emergency?

[Kamiccolo9]

The phrase "better the devil you know..." speaks volumes.

[rereboy]

See, I disagree. I've never thought Vegeta's decision to taunt Freeza into transforming was anything but logical. And that's because Vegeta and I are on the same page in regards to what's wrong with the Freeza fight in general: everything before the endgame is pointless because Freeza can transform at will, unlike Cell or Boo. And that means that, unless you get really lucky and manage to kill him instantly, whenever Freeza feels threatened, he's just going to transform anyway, making all of your previous efforts useless... which is exactly what he ends up doing. So Vegeta just doesn't want to waste his time or his energy, and I can't say I blame him. I just wish Vegeta had known Freeza had four forms. Maybe we could have skipped the rest of that crap too. =P

Vegeta would have a much better chance of defeating Freeza if he didn't let Freeza transform, and Vegeta should know, thanks to his power sensing, that he hadn't surpassed Freeza's weaker form in term of power, let alone a more powerful form of Freeza.

So, in short, we have Vegeta, telling Freeza in a form that he hasn't surpassed at all, to get even stronger, instead of trying to come up with a way to keep Freeza from transforming and beat him while he isn't very far off from Vegeta's power.

At least, in the Cell arc, Vegeta had already surpassed semi-perfect Cell by a great margin, so, in his arrogance, he let Cell transform so that he could have a better challenge without ever believing that Cell would become so strong that he wouldn't be able to defeat him. That's more arrogance and miscalculations than it is stupidity. In Namek however, it seems to be more stupidity than anything else since he hadn't even surpassed Freeza's weaker form.

[Gorou]

That's more arrogance and miscalculations than it is stupidity. In Namek however, it seems to be more stupidity than anything else since he hadn't even surpassed Freeza's weaker form.

Is a myth to dispel, that of the "maggior stupidity to the characters in this saga". Vegeta, following the achievement of the legendary power, it just becomes more arrogant, not dumber.
In reality it is not lacking, here too, to show his cunning on several occasions:
- with a psychological Play convincing Gero at not attack him, when he had no energy;
- push Cell not to dodge the Final Flash, focusing on his pride;
He was also willing to attack Cell in group "just waiting for the right time"

[Kamiccolo9]

Arrogance and stupidity are not mutually exclusive, nor do they need to encompass every single act of the subject to be present.

[ekrolo2]

Vegeta's behavior in the Cell Saga is fine if you think about it, on Namek he's a moron for goading Freeza. If Toriyama wrote the initial battle between him and first form Freeza as Vegeta just completely handing Freeza his ass, as he later does to Semi-Perfect Cell, his arrogance would be justified. But that's not how it goes, so he's just being a dumbass for telling him to transform.

[Gorou]

Vegeta is cunning and tactical when it is in trouble, and arrogant and reckless when it's big lead. Even when fighting the final form of Freezer, it reveals his arrogance, attacking alone.
The character is this. Even Cell (same cells) acts in the same way: smart and tactical when is at disadvantage, arrogant, insolent and passive when is at advantage (except the SPC form).

[rereboy]

Arrogance and stupidity are not mutually exclusive, nor do they need to encompass every single act of the subject to be present.

Which is why I was careful enough to say that it was "more arrogance and miscalculations than it is stupidity" instead of calling it just arrogance and miscalculations.