Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I can't see how Goku and the other Saiyans were above Freeza in the Boo arc, but if they were it wasn't by much, especially once you consider that once Kaioshin tells Goku how the other Kaioshin could defeat Freeza in one blow and they were defeated by Boo Goku was amazed.

That doesn't really prove anything. Defeating Freeza in one blow isn't something Goku can't do, as he obviously can as a Super Saiyan and above.

[Darkprince410]

I can't see how Goku and the other Saiyans were above Freeza in the Boo arc, but if they were it wasn't by much, especially once you consider that once Kaioshin tells Goku how the other Kaioshin could defeat Freeza in one blow and they were defeated by Boo Goku was amazed.

That doesn't really prove anything. Defeating Freeza in one blow isn't something Goku can't do, as he obviously can as a Super Saiyan and above.

I will say that it does help discredit the notion that Goku and the others were stronger than Kaioushin in their base forms though. If Kaioushin was capable of defeating Freeza in a single blow, and Goku and the others were stronger than Kaioushin (as what Speedster has suggested), then the notion that someone was strong enough to defeat the Kaioushin shouldn't have been that impressive or shocking to him. It wasn't even a comment that Buu easily defeated them either, just that he had defeated the Kaioushin, which is something Goku reacted to with amazement.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I will say that it does help discredit the notion that Goku and the others were stronger than Kaioushin in their base forms though. If Kaioushin was capable of defeating Freeza in a single blow, and Goku and the others were stronger than Kaioushin (as what Speedster has suggested), then the notion that someone was strong enough to defeat the Kaioushin shouldn't have been that impressive or shocking to him. It wasn't even a comment that Buu easily defeated them either, just that he had defeated the Kaioushin, which is something Goku reacted to with amazement.

But again, one-shotting Freeza isn't something Goku/Vegeta/Gohan can't do, regardless of their specific form. If Goku was a Super Saiyan when Kaioshin said that, would he not have been shocked because he can one-shot Freeza as a Super Saiyan?

[Hitiro]

The scene made perfect sense. Dr. Gero had created materials that could withstand impacts from super powered beings. While the mountain does get destroyed later it was probably the correct choice to try and get in through the door because if they destroy the mountain they can't guarantee they have destroyed Dr. Gero or the androids. Dr. Gero could have snuck away and developed even better androids for instance.

No the scene doesn't make ANY sense. Ultimately the door or its frame had to hold onto something and that something was the mountain rocks. A powerful impact onto the door would transmit the force onto the mountain rocks causing them to break therefore realising the door/creating an opening. They could drill the mountain too. And if you think it was an inner hollow hemisphere dome-like construction made by that super-material then it wouldn’t be destroyed later.

How do you know it was holding onto the mountain rocks? Yes, we see the doors go into the rocks. But for all we know the whole lab is metal with rock holding it in place. So what we saw was rock holding the doors in place was just rock surrounding a much bigger metal frame. And I don't see why the inner hemisphere construction couldn't have been made from a super material either. It was SSJ Trunks who destroyed it with his "most powerful attack" so why wouldn't it be destroyed later? There are limits to how much that super material can withstand. SSJ Trunks with his most powerful attack would obviously exceed those limits.

I don't see how. Your gains will be relative no matter what so if you get 1.05x stronger in base your SSJ will also only be 1.05x stronger.

I am talking about more power in the base and a smaller SSJ1 multiplier. If the SSJ result is going to be 100A it can be say either by having a base 25A and an SSJ mutliplier of 4 OR have a base of 2A and an SSJ multiplier of 50. If Piccolo is say anywhere between 25A and 36A the first scenario allows for base Saiyans to be comparable to Piccolo and Piccolo not too far from the Super Saiyans. The second scenario however requires Piccolo (before fusing with Kami) to be massively stronger than base Saiyans - something that does not make much sense if not at all.

As I explained previously though there is no reason for Piccolo not to have had huge gains within those 3 years. Goku literally made a 200x gain in just over a year. Piccolo spending only a few days on Kaio's planet underwent gains that impressed even a Nail who was at a battle power of 42,000. In all eventuality Piccolo with just a couple of days training there had already made 10x the gains Goku had made previously.

But Genki is a portion of Ki. Akira Toriyama stated this in an interview. So the battle power numbers we see include Genki within them.

Not necessarily. True Genki is the energy part of the Ki but apparently it is subdivided into smaller components and the one that is donated for the construction of the Genki Dama sphere is unrelated to the battle power level – it is unquantifiable (or at least not quantifiable by power levels). We know this as Goten and Trunks didn't power up to SSJ to increase their battle power levels (and hence their Ki and hence the Genki) when they donated their own Genki for the Genki Dama that killed kid Buu.

That isn't correct. Ki is subdivided. One of the subdivisions is Genki. That's according to Akira Toriyama in his own interview. Where are you getting this subdivision of Genki from? And no. Genki Dama is related to battle power because battle power is a numerical representation of ones Ki. As such, Genki being a subdivision of Ki, would make up a certain amount of that battle power number. So if Genki makes up 33% of the Ki someone has then 33% of that battle power numerical representation is going to be 33%. As for Goten and Trunks not powering up to donate their Ki there are numerous ways you can look at that. For starters it could be that the Genki portion of Ki does not increase when you turn SSJ. It would make sense considering that Genki is literally "energy". The Saiyan's rely on this energy to maintain their SSJ forms. Goku and Gohan went specifically out of their way to minimise energy consumption in the Cell Games. That would seem to suggest that their Genki portion of Ki remains unaffected by transforming. They still get as tired as fast as they do as base Saiyans. If all they had to do to maintain their energy was to transform into a higher form or more powerful transformation I think they would be abusing that method rather than simply trying to minimise energy consumption.

[Speedster]

The information they relayed to Tarble was clearly incomplete/less than accurate, for despite them clearly knowing, by the Cell Saga, that it was Goku that defeated Freeza, Tarble came to Earth under the assumption that it was Vegeta that defeated him. Likewise, he clearly has no concept of what a Super Saiya-jin is, despite it being firmly established that the Namekians know that it was a Super Saiya-jin that defeated Freeza.

No. Tarble said: “Then I heard from the Namekians that you and THE OTHERS returned to a planet called Earth after defeating Freeza”. It was the OTHERS who defeated Freeza (or they defeated him as a group which is not untrue anyway as though Goku did 99% of the work the others helped too like Piccolo buying time for the Genki Dama and Krillin’s death for the SSJ unlocking, Vegeta delaying their deaths, etc).

If they didn't impart that information to him, why would they impart specific information such as Freeza being 250x stronger than he was before. Without it being stated or inferred, you can't make that assumption, so saying that he had that knowledge is baseless.

Besides it was not only the Namekians who could convey Freeza's final form strength to Tarble. Sorbet was aware of Freeza's strength in final form. Abo and Cado being remnants of Freeza's army did have access to that information too and could have bragged that they became as strong as final form Freeza.

Goku's comment can readily be taken as just Freeza, in general, not being that major of an enemy, given that they've dealt with the likes of Cell and Buu since then. You equate it to solely be about Freeza's full power, but his comment can, and given the way he stated it, most likely is, just referring to Freeza as a whole.

Exactly even 100% Freeza was not a major of an enemy strength-wise. Glad you agree. And in “general” at the time of the events Freeza was a much harder opponent to overcome than anyone that appeared subsequently. Something that was remarked by Gohan in Resurrection of F too. Something that is obvious by the number of manga chapters as well (there are 35 chapters where the Z fighters fight against Freeza, but 32 chapters fighting against Cell and 34 fighting against Buu)

Regardless of whether it makes sense mathematically or not, the fact is that Tarble makes absolutely no indication that he has knowledge of Freeza's later transformations or battle power, so we have to base everything around that information. Even if that somehow means a total retcon or significant weakening of Trunks and Goten's strength to where they're somehow vastly weaker than Freeza is even as Super Saiya-jin, we have to accept that over just randomly assuming that Tarble acquired information on exactly how strong Freeza was.

So you finally admit that your case doesn't make sense mathematically and even requires a retcon. Therefore you are wrong. Not to mention that if they were retconned to be weaker than first form Freeza as Super Saiyans then saying that SSJ is x50 would mean they would be even weaker than Vegeta was in the Saiyan arc and of course than the Ginyu force (who had been referenced as the original strength level of Abo and Cado).

How do you know it was holding onto the mountain rocks?

Do you think the rocky interior of the lab was just for decoration?

[Hitiro]

How do you know it was holding onto the mountain rocks?

Do you think the rocky interior of the lab was just for decoration?

Considering the back wall, the ceiling, the floor and the front wall are all some sort of metal alloy it is highly possible that the rock within the room is just there to house things behind them rather than wasting even more material building the place. Kind of like how a house isn't entirely made of wood or concrete. You put in things like drywall and other materials as filler to reduce cost and construction times. Nobody wants to carve out an intricate circuit pattern into wood or concrete for their homes. Even assuming that it wasn't, the structure they were in is at least 66% a metal alloy. If they hit the door then the impact is going to effect that material connected to the door. Which as I said was the floor, ceiling and back wall. Also let's not forget that there was a whole underground lab there too which could have had a much more rooted fixture in the mountain.

[Darkprince410]

So you finally admit that your case doesn't make sense mathematically and even requires a retcon. Therefore you are wrong. Not to mention that if they were retconned to be weaker than first form Freeza as Super Saiyans then saying that SSJ is x50 would mean they would be even weaker than Vegeta was in the Saiyan arc and of course than the Ginyu force (who had been referenced as the original strength level of Abo and Cado).

No, it means that, no matter what your notions of where Trunks and Goten should be at strength wise, the Jump Special has them sitting at, at most, just over a million in terms of their base strength. It doesn't matter what you think, the facts of the matter are that Tarble doesn't have access to information about Freeza's forms beyond his second, nor is there any indication that Tarble knows about Freeza's 3rd or final form.

Regardless of where you think the special puts their strength or how Goku's estimation of Abo and Cado's strength would be in comparison to the boys, nothing about the Jump Special points to the boys having base battle powers above Freeza's battle power, and even if they did, there's enough information in the Buu Saga that puts Trunks and Goten's bases above Goku and Vegeta's.

[Sora Saiyan]

I will say that it does help discredit the notion that Goku and the others were stronger than Kaioushin in their base forms though. If Kaioushin was capable of defeating Freeza in a single blow, and Goku and the others were stronger than Kaioushin (as what Speedster has suggested), then the notion that someone was strong enough to defeat the Kaioushin shouldn't have been that impressive or shocking to him. It wasn't even a comment that Buu easily defeated them either, just that he had defeated the Kaioushin, which is something Goku reacted to with amazement.

But again, one-shotting Freeza isn't something Goku/Vegeta/Gohan can't do, regardless of their specific form. If Goku was a Super Saiyan when Kaioshin said that, would he not have been shocked because he can one-shot Freeza as a Super Saiyan?

If they could do it in base why would Goku find it amazing? The only time when Freeza is mentioned to be one shot material in the manga it's considered amazing by Goku.

Vegeta (thinking to himself): “Hmph…Even we Saiyans could do a thing like that…”
Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”
Goku: “Hieeh! A-amazin’..., but we can all do that to Freeza in our regular state, and then become 50x stronger as a SSJ.

I really don't see how Goku could consider that amazing if he could do that to Freeza in his regular state.

[Speedster]

Vegeta (thinking to himself): “Hmph…Even we Saiyans could do a thing like that…”
Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”
Goku: “Hieeh! A-amazin’..., but we can all do that to Freeza in our regular state, and then become 50x stronger as a SSJ.

Goku considered amazing that someone could defeat those 4 powerful Kaioshins (possibly fighting together as well). Not that someone could one-shot Freeza. Besides as I explained the single blow means nothing. Regardless of how powerful you are you still need to attack once. You also randomly assume that Goku assumed that the Kaioshins possessed power only enough to barely make it to the "one-shot Freeza league". And trying to fit a strong base with a high multiplier doesn't work. It is either a weak base and a high multiplier or a strong base and smaller multiplier. But the net SSJ result doesn't change. If say their SSJ power level at the time is 2 billion, their base could be 500 million and the SSJ multiplier 4.

[Darkprince410]

Vegeta (thinking to himself): “Hmph…Even we Saiyans could do a thing like that…”
Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”
Goku: “Hieeh! A-amazin’..., but we can all do that to Freeza in our regular state, and then become 50x stronger as a SSJ.

Goku considered amazing that someone could defeat those 4 powerful Kaioshins (possibly fighting together as well). Not that someone could one-shot Freeza. Besides as I explained the single blow means nothing. Regardless of how powerful you are you still need to attack once. You also randomly assume that Goku assumed that the Kaioshins possessed power only enough to barely make it to the "one-shot Freeza league". And trying to fit a strong base with a high multiplier doesn't work. It is either a weak base and a high multiplier or a strong base and smaller multiplier. But the net SSJ result doesn't change. If say their SSJ power level at the time is 2 billion, their base could be 500 million and the SSJ multiplier 4.

You're not understanding what he's getting at. He's saying that why should it be impressive to Goku that someone could defeat individuals capable of taking Freeza out with a single blow if he (Goku) and the other two Saiya-jin were capable of the same feat, as you've suggested. You've claimed that Goku and the others should have had base battle powers higher than Kaioushin, meaning that, already, they were already at a level capable of defeating someone able to take Freeza out with a single blow.

Even if Goku is severely lowballing his estimations on Kaioushin's strength, and assuming the bare minimum of how much it'd take to take out Freeza in a single blow, for him to still find it amazing that an individual could defeat someone capable of taking out Freeza in one blow strongly, strongly indicates that he isn't that powerful. Why would it be impressive to him if he were already in that ballpark in his base form, and capable of growing 50x stronger in his Ssj form (and yes, it is 50x, regardless of what you claim. It's the only official multiplier, and it fits everything shown perfectly).

[Hugo Boss]

I think we are extrapolating a lot of things from that scene. Goku didn't really know how powerful is a Kaioshin, apart from being able to make Piccolo retreat and immobilize Gohan. Defeating Freeza with one blow isn't more impressive in comparison, since even Piccolo could do that. Being able to kill 4 of those misteriously powerful guys is what I think Goku finds interesting.

[Darkprince410]

I think we are extrapolating a lot of things from that scene. Goku didn't really know how powerful is a Kaioshin, apart from being able to make Piccolo retreat and immobilize Gohan. Defeating Freeza with one blow isn't more impressive in comparison, since even Piccolo could do that. Being able to kill 4 of those misteriously powerful guys is what I think Goku finds interesting.

All he really has to go on strength wise though with Kaioushin and Buu is that statement, that they're capable of taking out Freeza in one blow and that Buu was strong enough to take them out. With no mention of how difficult it was either, then it comes down to just the fact that Buu was strong enough to beat them, period.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

If they could do it in base why would Goku find it amazing? The only time when Freeza is mentioned to be one shot material in the manga it's considered amazing by Goku.

What does base matter? One-shotting Freeza is something all of the Saiyans can do at this point (in SS or above), arguing Goku's amazement at a random person popping up and saying they can beat Freeza in one-blow (which is not common at all) somehow translates to the Saiyans not being able to do that in one of their specific forms is completely arbitrary.

[buutenks]

I think goku found it amazing that there are/were other beings so powerful that they could one shot freeza.

Anyways in buu saga,vegeta says he'll win even without SSJ.So perhaps that is merely his arrogance?But then we have 18 fighting goten and trunks.Granted,she didnt knew it was them so i doubt she went all out.

So i guess its a bit iffy.

On one hand we have beerus stating base goku is below freeza,on the other we have vegeta saying he can win the tournament in base form and kids vs android 18.

IMO i believe that during the buu saga toriyama intended for the base saiyans to be that powerful and ssj multiplier was much lower compared to namek saga.But since BOG that was changed to be back to namek saga levels.

[Hugo Boss]

Vegeta would probably transform to avoid an iminent loss if he needs. Like he did on Beerus' planet. After all, no Saiyan respected that rule. Even Gohan who suggested it. But let's say Vegeta hipothetically loses to someone while on his regular state. His position wouldn't change, because he still had Super Saiyan and a form surpassing it. That's different from saying he would still win, like some unreliable translations have.

[Sora Saiyan]

If they could do it in base why would Goku find it amazing? The only time when Freeza is mentioned to be one shot material in the manga it's considered amazing by Goku.

What does base matter? One-shotting Freeza is something all of the Saiyans can do at this point (in SS or above), arguing Goku's amazement at a random person popping up and saying they can beat Freeza in one-blow (which is not common at all) somehow translates to the Saiyans not being able to do that in one of their specific forms is completely arbitrary.

I just don't think Goku would be amazed if he could do that without effort, if he has to become a SSJ it still means that he actually has to put a bit of effort in to reach the level where he can 1 shot Freeza. He might even have to put forth something like 10%-20% of his SSJ power to manage that feat, so it's decently impressive when the Kaioshin were all defeated by Buu. Any other way I don't really see how it seems amazing.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

If we use the X19.2 per year factor and multiply by 3. It would make Goku's base would be 230,400,000 already exceeding Freeza's full power.

That doesn't mean anything. Power gains aren't predictable by some sort of formula. They can vary wildly depending on what type of training you do, and there's things like environment, partners or lack thereof, and diminishing returns to consider too. Just because Goku got X times stronger in one year doesn't mean he's automatically going to get X times stronger again the next year, even if he does the exact same training.

This may be true but Goku is a very hard trainer.Why would he slack off he had no canon/filler reason too.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

If they could do it in base why would Goku find it amazing? The only time when Freeza is mentioned to be one shot material in the manga it's considered amazing by Goku.

What does base matter? One-shotting Freeza is something all of the Saiyans can do at this point (in SS or above), arguing Goku's amazement at a random person popping up and saying they can beat Freeza in one-blow (which is not common at all) somehow translates to the Saiyans not being able to do that in one of their specific forms is completely arbitrary.

I just don't think Goku would be amazed if he could do that without effort, if he has to become a SSJ it still means that he actually has to put a bit of effort in to reach the level where he can 1 shot Freeza. He might even have to put forth something like 10%-20% of his SSJ power to manage that feat, so it's decently impressive when the Kaioshin were all defeated by Buu. Any other way I don't really see how it seems amazing.

Not really much effort when he can use Super Saiyan as if it's his natural form.

[Kaboom]

This may be true but Goku is a very hard trainer.Why would he slack off he had no canon/filler reason too.

Neither I nor anyone else said that Goku wouldn't get that strong through lack of trying. Only that no matter how hard he trains, the strength he gets from it is not predictable. "But Goku trained really hard for X years" is not proof for or against anything.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I just don't think Goku would be amazed if he could do that without effort, if he has to become a SSJ it still means that he actually has to put a bit of effort in to reach the level where he can 1 shot Freeza. He might even have to put forth something like 10%-20% of his SSJ power to manage that feat, so it's decently impressive when the Kaioshin were all defeated by Buu. Any other way I don't really see how it seems amazing.

Not really much effort when he can use Super Saiyan as if it's his natural form.

Essentially this. Super Saiyan is nothing special at this point in the story; the kids have it (arguably mastered), all of the adults have it mastered, they also all have Super Saiyan 2, and Goku even has Super Saiyan 3.

Super Saiyan 1 is nowhere near Goku's full capacity and thus one-shotting Freeza is something that only requires a fraction of Goku's true power.