Plot Holes

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku did no fighting while Gohan was on Earth. His power was gone.

[Desassina]

He has swung the same sword at base that took SSJ Gohan a few tries to master. If anything, Gohan was playing catch up to him, and then got his power unlocked. Goku used SSJ3 against Buutenks, which is enough for him to get used to it, and fought some more as Vegetto, well after surviving Buuhan. Then he uses SSJ3 against Kid Buu, fights to his limits by giving his all, rests in between Vegeta doing the same, and gets his stamina recovered. Goku is simply at his best when fighting, and Akira Toriyama has pretty much confirmed that their power increases while doing it. How else would Krillin stack up with Gohan and Vegeta against the Ginyu Force and Freeza? Fighting is no different than training, provided you have the time (or magic) to rest and heal. That's what fans don't get, and that's why they're stuck using words from moments ago to interpret all new ones.

[Analytic]

You randomly asserted that I was supporting base Goku>Ultimate Gohan – something I never said.

If you're using the anime to claim Pure Boo > Evil Boo, then you're supporting the anime; the very same anime that has Base Goku close to Ultimate Gohan. Disregarding that yet accepting the statement of Pure Boo being the strongest Boo only shows that you nitpick whatever is convenient for your point of view.

[Speedster]

Kaioshin planet does not exist in other world. It's in its own place. Check the Daizenshuu 4 map of the universe.

A map that was made after the serialisation ended. As with other such post-serialisation info there is a lot of made-up things that Toriyama tried to forcibly fit to the lore of the original manga and contradicting it in the process. See the Dragon World map of the Earth for example. In the manga Gero supposedly went to his lab hiding in the ground running on foot. Yet the map places the battle with 19 on an island!

Kaioushin's planet doesn't exist in the afterlife. It's been shown to exist in a realm outside that of the universe, both the living universe and the afterlife. As such, there's no reason to believe the rules of time of the afterlife apply there.

The Kaioshin world is its own place. It isn't the Otherworld.

Even assuming that Toriyama wrote that part of his manga with that Daizenshuu cosmos map in mind, you can perfectly see the similarity between the Kaioshin's realm & macrocosmos WITH the heavenly realm & Earth. And since the rules in Kami’s lookout are the same as on Earth it can be deduced that the Kaioshin realm has the same rules as the afterlife and definitely not the same as the mortal world. That because dead Goku was able to go to the Kaioshins’ realm with no problem - so definitely not the same conditions as the mortal universe. Also one would expect that Goku shouldn't be able to freely go outside the Other World while being dead. Not even in the non-canon movie 9 could he do it for more than a second.

Time has to flow in other world otherwise the Kaio and Kaioshin would never age. But they clearly do age and die.

Kaio and Kaioshin were never shown to age physically in the manga. They have the same appearance all time along. Kaioshin in particular was shown to have the same appearance for over 5 million years. As for their lifespan Toriyama has never been consistent with this lore in his post-manga interviews. Other things he said in 2009 and other things he said in 2014. Also in 2014 he said Kaioshin has a lifespan of only 75 thousand years which is bulls**t as in the manga Kaioshin referred to events that he experienced 5 million years ago. And the elder Kaioshin has old appearance only due to fusing with that old witch. As for Kaio, as far as the original manga goes, in chapter 205, Enma was said to be the last one who crossed the snakeway in the past 100 million years in order to receive training from Kaio. That puts Kaio at least at 100 million years of existence.

Who says that Vegeta's rage boost only affected his Ssj2 battle power? For all we know, that rage boost temporarily pushed his base strength up considerably, and his Ssj transformations simply scaled up accordingly. If Goku and Vegeta were even before the rage boost strength wise, all it'd take is a boost of over 4x to his base form to pass up Ssj3 Goku's strength while in his Ssj2 form.

Even then it means it is possible to go over 400*(normal base) in a Super Saiyan lineage form. Why can’t the same apply for SSJ3 Goku vs kid Buu? Goku proved time and again he is capable to push his limits even during fights when being pushed into the corner. Last time it was in Super when he punched that huge energy ball away in his base form.

[Darkprince410]

Who says that Vegeta's rage boost only affected his Ssj2 battle power? For all we know, that rage boost temporarily pushed his base strength up considerably, and his Ssj transformations simply scaled up accordingly. If Goku and Vegeta were even before the rage boost strength wise, all it'd take is a boost of over 4x to his base form to pass up Ssj3 Goku's strength while in his Ssj2 form.

Even then it means it is possible to go over 400*(normal base) in a Super Saiyan lineage form. Why can’t the same apply for SSJ3 Goku vs kid Buu? Goku proved time and again he is capable to push his limits even during fights when being pushed into the corner. Last time it was in Super when he punched that huge energy ball away in his base form.

No it doesn't. Vegeta would still be no higher than 100x his base form, just his base form would be exceptionally higher for that brief time period. Take this for example.

Vegeta (normal base): 1
Ssj2 Vegeta (normal): 100

Vegeta (enraged base): 10
Ssj2 Vegeta (enraged): 1,000

His base to Ssj2 ration is still just 100x, but he's so much stronger because his base became so much stronger. His feat in the BoG arc of Super doesn't require him to have bypassed or otherwise ignored the Ssj multipliers at all.

[Desassina]

I don't actually see the problem with tapping onto more power without locking it in a new form. It's like accelerating a car without changing gears, which makes it waste gas, like Vegeta has quickly reverted. Nobody had noticed Vegeta before the rage boost either, specially when he had fought Beerus in BoG. It was such an event that it deserved mention at the end, with Goku playing around with Bulma's slap. Since I'm only using BoG, it was a power up made in-universe, but for laughs nonetheless. Besides, the multipliers are only starting points to the fact that they range, or else nobody would have noticed the transformations' Ki rising, nor an increase in the same form (Full Power SSJ). Nothing is being contradicted, it's only up to the people who cling to the manga, but consider supplements canon to consider such disparity.

[apex_pretador]

1) Who says that Vegeta's rage boost only affected his Ssj2 battle power? For all we know, that rage boost temporarily pushed his base strength up considerably, and his Ssj transformations simply scaled up accordingly. If Goku and Vegeta were even before the rage boost strength wise, all it'd take is a boost of over 4x to his base form to pass up Ssj3 Goku's strength while in his Ssj2 form.

Who says multipliers are even a thing?

[Hitiro]

Kaioshin planet does not exist in other world. It's in its own place. Check the Daizenshuu 4 map of the universe.

A map that was made after the serialisation ended. As with other such post-serialisation info there is a lot of made-up things that Toriyama tried to forcibly fit to the lore of the original manga and contradicting it in the process. See the Dragon World map of the Earth for example. In the manga Gero supposedly went to his lab hiding in the ground running on foot. Yet the map places the battle with 19 on an island!

Actually Toriyama said he made the World Map after he finished drawing the story. So that would mean it was made while the story was still in serialisation. Because it effectively takes the week for it to be published. Not that this changes anything. If he drew the map like this then that is what his thoughts were of the universe. You're just assuming that the Kaioshin Planet is in other world yet you don't have any actual proof that it is. Nothing was stated about it being in other world. Nothing was stated that time didn't flow there. These are just assumptions you have made to back up your opinion. Whereas I've provided actual credible material in this regard.

Time has to flow in other world otherwise the Kaio and Kaioshin would never age. But they clearly do age and die.

Kaio and Kaioshin were never shown to age physically in the manga. They have the same appearance all time along. Kaioshin in particular was shown to have the same appearance for over 5 million years. As for their lifespan Toriyama has never been consistent with this lore in his post-manga interviews. Other things he said in 2009 and other things he said in 2014. Also in 2014 he said Kaioshin has a lifespan of only 75 thousand years which is bulls**t as in the manga Kaioshin referred to events that he experienced 5 million years ago. And the elder Kaioshin has old appearance only due to fusing with that old witch. As for Kaio, as far as the original manga goes, in chapter 205, Enma was said to be the last one who crossed the snakeway in the past 100 million years in order to receive training from Kaio. That puts Kaio at least at 100 million years of existence.

The lifespans were considered to be thousands of years for Kaio and millions of years for Kaioshin so of course the were never shown to age physically. Goku and Vegeta are supposed to maintain their prime till their 80. Does that mean that they exist out of time too? No. Furthermore the Rou Kaioshin actually states he only has a couple thousand years left of his life. So they do age and die. Regardless of what you may think. And you're making the assumption that it was the same Kaio that Enma went to train under or that he was going to train under a Kaio anyway? The dialogue just says only Enma Daio has been able to traverse Snake Way in the past 100 million years. It neither mentions him going for training or meeting the current Kaio. So why do you naturally assume that must mean this Kaio must be over 100 million years old? And no, What Toriyama said was the Kaio have lifespans of only 75 thousand but every so often there will be a special fruit containing a Kaioshin. He states that the Kaioshin are a different order of being. Their lifespan is not mentioned in the talk you're on about. So while the regular Kaio may have a lifespan of 75 thousand the Kaioshin would exceed that by being a different order of being.

[Hellspawn28]

With plot holes in Super, how come Goku and Vegeta can grow beards when they never shown to have any type of facial hair before?

[Zephyr]

With plot holes in Super, how come Goku and Vegeta can grow beards when they never shown to have any type of facial hair before?

- They shaved offscreen every time
- They finally hit the age where they grow facial hair

[Speedster]

Actually Toriyama said he made the World Map after he finished drawing the story. So that would mean it was made while the story was still in serialisation. Because it effectively takes the week for it to be published. Not that this changes anything. If he drew the map like this then that is what his thoughts were of the universe.

What sort of logic is this? For starters Daizenshuu 4 was published in October 1995. The final chapter of the manga was published 5 whole months earlier -- in May 1995. Not a week. And the stuff we are discussing happened in the manga well before its end anyway - in particular dead Goku went to Kaioshin’s planet in chapter 478 which was published in July 1994. Over a year before Toriyama made the map.

Also you missed the point. The point is that even the Dragonworld map of earth which Toriyama said he made AFTERWARDS to keep everything consistent is in fact inconsistent with the Cell arc (see Gero going to his lab on foot hiding while the map places the fight with #19 on an island near the south pole and Gero’s lab is close to the North pole). And this is generally the problem with all this post-serialisation lore ----- not every single detail in the manga will abide to that new lore and DEFINENELY this new lore was not in mind during the serialisation. So you cannot use it to interpret every single thing that happened during the serialisation.

You're just assuming that the Kaioshin Planet is in other world yet you don't have any actual proof that it is. Nothing was stated about it being in other world. Nothing was stated that time didn't flow there.

No proof? Dead Goku went there freely. So one could deduce that before Toriyama made up all that new lore a year later, Kaioshins' Planet was in fact meant to be in the afterlife. And even if it wasn’t in the Other World it doesn't matter anyway. The fact that Goku could freely move there while being dead it means that this planet has different rules and conditions than the mortal world. If you like to think of it as different than the Other World you can say that the conditions on Kaioshin’s planet are somewhere in-between those of afterlife and those of the mortal world. In other words contrary to the Other World where time doesn't flow, time may flow on Kaioshin’s planet but still slower than in the mortal world. Either way the conditions are different and this can reason why Goku could sustain higher power levels as SSJ3 while fighting kid Buu on Kaioshin’s planet.

And you're making the assumption that it was the same Kaio that Enma went to train under or that he was going to train under a Kaio anyway? The dialogue just says only Enma Daio has been able to traverse Snake Way in the past 100 million years. It neither mentions him going for training or meeting the current Kaio. So why do you naturally assume that must mean this Kaio must be over 100 million years old?

You are clutching at straws and you know it … Yeah sure…When Toriyama wrote that part of the Saiyan arc he definitely thought it the way you describe! Sure Enma crossed the snakeway for no reason - because he was a masochist or so. As were all the others who attempted to cross snakeway and failed. And, yes, sure Enma met a DIFFERENT Kaio at the end of the snakeway. And Goku was supposedly going to receive training by that mighty person who trained Enma who easily beat Radditz mind you. It also makes you wonder how Enma can have a lifespan several thousand times greater than Kaio and the Kaioshins!

The lifespans were considered to be thousands of years for Kaio and millions of years for Kaioshin so of course the were never shown to age physically. And no, What Toriyama said was the Kaio have lifespans of only 75 thousand but every so often there will be a special fruit containing a Kaioshin. He states that the Kaioshin are a different order of being. Their lifespan is not mentioned in the talk you're on about. So while the regular Kaio may have a lifespan of 75 thousand the Kaioshin would exceed that by being a different order of being

As you sure about this? Here read...2014 interview Vs 2009 interview

SEG 2009 interview

Spoiler:

Is Kaiō-sama a hereditary position?
Inside the big ball I mentioned before, there is a planet, called the World Core [Kaishin-sei] where the Kaiō are born and raised. It’s a world like a gigantic Planet Kaiō, and Kaiō-sama and his peers are born as Core People [Shin-jin]3 from the fruit of the World Core’s giant World Tree [Kaiju]. The planet’s population is about 80. Core People are neither male nor female, and their average lifespan is said to be about 75,000 years.

At a castle that’s like a school, they learn a variety of things, and live an easygoing life; however, if a Kaiō dies on one of the Kaiō Planets, the next Kaiō is chosen from among them by lottery. However, a Kaiōshin is chosen only from Core People who are born from a special golden fruit, which rarely occurs.

So in the 2009 SEG interview Toriyama states that the Kaios (not he Kaioshins) have lifespans of 75000 years. That contradicts the manga as Enma traversed the snakeway to receive training from North Kaio over 100 million years ago. Anyway…let’s move on to the next interview

Saikyō Jump June 2014

Spoiler:

The Kaiōshin are said to have the highest status in the universe, but how can you become a Kaiōshin?No one can. Kaiōshin are born as Kaiōshin. There are three of them, and they work in shifts. Though there are two of them on duty now, if one of the Kaiōshin were to die in an accident, then the currently-inactive Kaiōshin would grow in the Kaiōshin Realm like a plant. If there aren’t any accidents, then it’s said their lifespans are about 75,000 years.

That contradicts both his previous interview of 2009 as well as the manga. For starters Toriryama here retconned the lore of Kaioshins both the manga one and the one he described in 2009. And it is no coincidence that Universe 6 in Super has only two Kaioshins. Secondly he puts the lifespan of Kaioshins (not the Kaios) to be 75,000 years i.e. as long as the lifespan he quoted in 2009 about the ordinary Kaios.

Furthermore the Rou Kaioshin actually states he only has a couple thousand years left of his life. So they do age and die.

It could be due to his fusion with the witch. After all it weakened him greatly physically.

Goku and Vegeta are supposed to maintain their prime till their 80. Does that mean that they exist out of time too? No.

Never did I say that Kaio and Kaioshin existed since the creation of the universe. There were born/created somehow. But they were not intended to have a finite lifespan.

Goku and Vegeta do age past their adulthood. Goku was different at the end of Z (55% of his lifespan) than how he used to be at the start of Z (25% of his lifespan), so after the passage of 27% of his lifespan we see observable changes in appearance. Kaioshin is the same for 5 million years. And by the way why did he never meet Beerus before (stated in Dragonball Super ep.3)? Weren’t Gods of Creation supposed to meet with the Gods of Destruction every 1000 years according to the following interview?

Spoiler:

Who was it that sealed the Elder Kaiōshin away in the Z Sword?
The Kaiōshin (who create planets) and the Gods of Destruction (who destroy them) have never gotten along that well, but once every 1,000 years they go to each other’s realms and hold a coordination meeting. At this time, they got into an argument over some trifling thing, and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaiōshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus.

These are just assumptions you have made to back up your opinion. Whereas I've provided actual credible material in this regard.

Credible material!!!! About which thing exactly? The Kaioshins’ and Kaios’ lifespans and lore? Everything outside the manga about the topic (Toriyama’s own post-serialisation interviews included) is a cluster of self-contradictory information. The Dragon World map? Not consistent either. So much for the credibility of the material you quoted…

No it doesn't. Vegeta would still be no higher than 100x his base form, just his base form would be exceptionally higher for that brief time period. Take this for example.

Vegeta (normal base): 1
Ssj2 Vegeta (normal): 100

Vegeta (enraged base): 10
Ssj2 Vegeta (enraged): 1,000

His base to Ssj2 ration is still just 100x, but he's so much stronger because his base became so much stronger. His feat in the BoG arc of Super doesn't require him to have bypassed or otherwise ignored the Ssj multipliers at all.

So what? Either the base or the SSJ multiplier is non-static. So it WAS possible for Goku as SSJ3 to go higher against kid Buu during the fight. He may have had a base boost. Why do you naturally assume that this was impossible to have happened?

[Darkprince410]

So what? Either the base or the SSJ multiplier is non-static. So it WAS possible for Goku as SSJ3 to go higher against kid Buu during the fight. He may have had a base boost. Why do you naturally assume that this was impossible to have happened?

There was no indication whatsoever that Goku had a boost when he was fighting Pure Buu. No indication that his base strength increased or anything along those lines. With Vegeta, there was some indication of an overall increase in power, but with Goku, there was none.

[Desassina]

The argument is that they must not have had a strength increase, but were able to tap onto more power by going all out. Akira Toriyama has said that there is a limit to one's strength, and that power should increase, like FP SSJ Goku thought that it would make up for needlessly toughening their body.

[Darkprince410]

The argument is that they must not have had a strength increase, but were able to tap onto more power by going all out. Akira Toriyama has said that there is a limit to one's strength, and that power should increase, like FP SSJ Goku thought that it would make up for needlessly toughening their body.

That's not what Goku was indicating at all regarding toughening his body further than what it already was. His whole plans going in to the Cell Games was that Gohan would fight, and that Cell would push him to the point that his anger would cause that dormant power to come out. Him and Gohan training a second year within the Room was pointless to him because he already felt that Gohan was strong enough to get the job done should Cell push him.

As for tapping into more power while going all out...I don't follow where you're coming from with that. All that was indicated was is that they had become so accustomed to the regular Ssj transformation that the strain was near non-existent for them, affecting them not much more than their base forms. Then that way, even when they pushed themselves to the limits of the form's power (still a 50x multiplier), the strain was still quite small.

That's all that the dialogue regarding Full-power Super Saiya-jin indicated, nothing about tapping into power beyond the 50x that the normal transformation yielded.

[Hitiro]

What sort of logic is this? For starters Daizenshuu 4 was published in October 1995. The final chapter of the manga was published 5 whole months earlier -- in May 1995. Not a week. And the stuff we are discussing happened in the manga well before its end anyway - in particular dead Goku went to Kaioshin’s planet in chapter 478 which was published in July 1994. Over a year before Toriyama made the map.

Again with the assumptions. You're assuming that just because there is a 5 month gap between the end of the manga and the Daizenshuu 4 that Akira Toriyama had to have done it much later? You realise that it takes time for guides like these to actually be developed. Right? Like movies and games which take 6+ months to a year the material for this Daizenshuu could have been well under way before the end of the final chapter. Furthermore Akira Toriyama could have done this for future reference, people do, do this sort of thing. There is no reason to assume that the words he said weren't an indication of this. He literally said that after he finished drawing the final chapter he produced this map.

Also you missed the point. The point is that even the Dragonworld map of earth which Toriyama said he made AFTERWARDS to keep everything consistent is in fact inconsistent with the Cell arc (see Gero going to his lab on foot hiding while the map places the fight with #19 on an island near the south pole and Gero’s lab is close to the North pole). And this is generally the problem with all this post-serialisation lore ----- not every single detail in the manga will abide to that new lore and DEFINENELY this new lore was not in mind during the serialisation. So you cannot use it to interpret every single thing that happened during the serialisation.

But there is a difference between a few months and 3 years, which was how long ago the Android stuff was. So he is likely to forget these things.

No proof? Dead Goku went there freely. So one could deduce that before Toriyama made up all that new lore a year later, Kaioshins' Planet was in fact meant to be in the afterlife. And even if it wasn’t in the Other World it doesn't matter anyway. The fact that Goku could freely move there while being dead it means that this planet has different rules and conditions than the mortal world. If you like to think of it as different than the Other World you can say that the conditions on Kaioshin’s planet are somewhere in-between those of afterlife and those of the mortal world. In other words contrary to the Other World where time doesn't flow, time may flow on Kaioshin’s planet but still slower than in the mortal world. Either way the conditions are different and this can reason why Goku could sustain higher power levels as SSJ3 while fighting kid Buu on Kaioshin’s planet.

The Kaioshin world is special. You're speaking as if just because he went there dead it MUST mean that it is in other world. Despite the author contradicting that with his Dragon World Map. And yes I would assume that it does have different rules considering Goku could go there dead. And no, I think it is a pretty big leap to assume that time flows differently there. Further more you keep bringing up that "Other World where time doesn't flow." as if it literally means there is no time there. Please stop making that assumption. We know for a fact that there is time there because the Kaio's do age and die. What Goku more likely meant by his statement is that it is a world without change because spirits go on indefinitely there. In fact the Viz translate it as "That SSJ3 can only be done in the afterlife, where time doesn't mean much." Furthermore whether time flows or not has no bearing on Goku's maximum power output. As I've been saying repeatedly. Characters have a limit to how much energy they can hold in their bodies. To surpass that they must put it into Ki attacks. The most recent and prime example is Piccolo's Makankosappo in Dragon Ball Super. If this time stuff was a thing the only benefit it would provide to Goku is the prevention of his power loss through maintaining the transformation. Nothing more, nothing less. Essentially:

Earth
SSJ3 power drain: 10 KPS(Ki per second)

AfterLife
SSJ3 power drain: 10 KPS = 0 due to no time passed

Kaioshin World
SSJ3 power drain: 10 KPS = 5 KPS if only half the time passes on the Kaioshin World.

His bodies limits would still be imposed. He would still only be able to hold the amount of Ki his body could sustain, i.e. 100%

You are clutching at straws and you know it … Yeah sure…When Toriyama wrote that part of the Saiyan arc he definitely thought it the way you describe! Sure Enma crossed the snakeway for no reason - because he was a masochist or so. As were all the others who attempted to cross snakeway and failed. And, yes, sure Enma met a DIFFERENT Kaio at the end of the snakeway. And Goku was supposedly going to receive training by that mighty person who trained Enma who easily beat Radditz mind you. It also makes you wonder how Enma can have a lifespan several thousand times greater than Kaio and the Kaioshins!

I'm not clutching at straws I'm stating the facts. There was no mention of Enma crossing the snakeway to meet the Kaio. Neither is there any mention of why he crossed it. It could be for any number of reasons. Maybe he was visiting another Kaio? Maybe he did it to train? Also, it is never mentioned in the manga that Enma was trained by Kaio. Perhaps you're pulling this line from the dub or the anime in general? You can check the pages yourself. Enma did not receive training from the Kaio. And why is it weird for Enma to have a lifespan surpassing the Kaio and Kaioshin? He is in charge of sending spirits to hell or heaven or reincarnating them. Why wouldn't someone like that have a long lifespan? Heck, he could be immortal.

The lifespans were considered to be thousands of years for Kaio and millions of years for Kaioshin so of course the were never shown to age physically. And no, What Toriyama said was the Kaio have lifespans of only 75 thousand but every so often there will be a special fruit containing a Kaioshin. He states that the Kaioshin are a different order of being. Their lifespan is not mentioned in the talk you're on about. So while the regular Kaio may have a lifespan of 75 thousand the Kaioshin would exceed that by being a different order of being

As you sure about this? Here read...2014 interview Vs 2009 interview[/quote]I stand corrected. I was correct about the statement in 2009 though that it doesn't specifically state the age of the Kaioshin. Again, it is understandable in this regard. This is 5 years later. He had probably forget a great deal about the story. In fact he says something along those lines. The fact of the matter is they do have a lifespan and they do age.

So in the 2009 SEG interview Toriyama states that the Kaios (not he Kaioshins) have lifespans of 75000 years. That contradicts the manga as Enma traversed the snakeway to receive training from North Kaio over 100 million years ago. Anyway…let’s move on to the next interview

Incorrect. As I pointed out earlier the manga never says that Enma traversed Snakeway to reveiver training. So no. It doesn't contradict it. Only the recent lore change contradicts the Kaioshin's lifespans when they should be several million years.

It could be due to his fusion with the witch. After all it weakened him greatly physically.

He says the other Kaioshin still has many years left. So no, it has nothing to do with fusion. He says this because he has less life than the young Kaioshin.

Goku and Vegeta are supposed to maintain their prime till their 80. Does that mean that they exist out of time too? No.

Never did I say that Kaio and Kaioshin existed since the creation of the universe. There were born/created somehow. But they were not intended to have a finite lifespan.

Except that the manga and all of Akira Toriyama's statements state that they DO have a finite lifespan. It may be the case that there are conflicts between the story and his statements but the one true remaining factor that does not change across them all is that they do age and die. So to say that they were not intended to have a finite lifespan despite dialogue from the manga and Akira's statements is just silly. They clearly do have a finite lifespan even if it is inconsistent.

Goku and Vegeta do age past their adulthood. Goku was different at the end of Z (55% of his lifespan) than how he used to be at the start of Z (25% of his lifespan), so after the passage of 27% of his lifespan we see observable changes in appearance. Kaioshin is the same for 5 million years. And by the way why did he never meet Beerus before (stated in Dragonball Super ep.3)? Weren’t Gods of Creation supposed to meet with the Gods of Destruction every 1000 years according to the following interview?

The universe is vast and the Kaioshin can't keep his eye on every little thing. He never saw the how powerful the Saiyan's were, for instance, till he met them. And I would say that a good portion of his life was spent trying to find Boo to destroy him now that he was sealed.

Spoiler:

Who was it that sealed the Elder Kaiōshin away in the Z Sword?
The Kaiōshin (who create planets) and the Gods of Destruction (who destroy them) have never gotten along that well, but once every 1,000 years they go to each other’s realms and hold a coordination meeting. At this time, they got into an argument over some trifling thing, and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaiōshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus.

And this means what? Things change. This was millions of years ago. It is highly possible that Beerus stopped going to these meetings after this happened. Or there could be other reasons. Who knows?

These are just assumptions you have made to back up your opinion. Whereas I've provided actual credible material in this regard.

Credible material!!!! About which thing exactly? The Kaioshins’ and Kaios’ lifespans and lore? Everything outside the manga about the topic (Toriyama’s own post-serialisation interviews included) is a cluster of self-contradictory information. The Dragon World map? Not consistent either. So much for the credibility of the material you quoted…

2009 was not self contradictory. Only the recent stuff has been contradictory. As far as I'm concerned even the self-contradicting information is more credible than a fan who just wants to believe something so much that they will ignore all statements or twist them to suit their own opinion. You go on about things like "It's obvious that troublesome means strong." yet you ignore the blatant statement from Goku saying he and Vegeta can't beat Evil Boo and roll it off as "Oh! It must mean their size!" or "Goku is just hiding the fact he can beat Boo to spare Vegeta's pride!" everything but the most obvious meaning to his words that they can't beat Evil Boo which is that they can't. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Speedster]

Again with the assumptions. You're assuming that just because there is a 5 month gap between the end of the manga and the Daizenshuu 4 that Akira Toriyama had to have done it much later? You realise that it takes time for guides like these to actually be developed. Right? Like movies and games which take 6+ months to a year the material for this Daizenshuu could have been well under way before the end of the final chapter. Furthermore Akira Toriyama could have done this for future reference, people do, do this sort of thing. There is no reason to assume that the words he said weren't an indication of this. He literally said that after he finished drawing the final chapter he produced this map.

Who here is assuming more and what? By his own words Toriyama drew the map at *best* literally the day after the end of the manga (chapter 519). Still dead Goku went to Kaioshin’s planet in chapter 478, almost a year earlier! You randomly *assume* that Toriyama planned the map in his head a whole year ahead while himself stated multiple times that he doesn’t plan much ahead – he didn't even do it for serious concepts like Piccolo and Goku being aliens (something stated he pre-planned only about 30 chapters ahead (6-7 months)). And still you believe he thought the map, which is a mere detail in comparison, a whole year ahead? Heck, Toriyama even said that during the Cell arc he was literally making stuff up while writing chapter by chapter. So if anyone here is making assumptions about the map’s date of conception this is certainly not me.

But there is a difference between a few months and 3 years, which was how long ago the Android stuff was. So he is likely to forget these things.

A year, not a few months. Still it means that nothing that comes from Troiyama's post-manga lore is infallible or the way he was thinking while writing the manga. Most importantly it means that at best this lore just tries (though sometimes failing) to fit in the manga's lore. Not the other way round.

The lifespans were considered to be thousands of years for Kaio and millions of years for Kaioshin so of course the were never shown to age physically. And no, What Toriyama said was the Kaio have lifespans of only 75 thousand but every so often there will be a special fruit containing a Kaioshin. He states that the Kaioshin are a different order of being. Their lifespan is not mentioned in the talk you're on about. So while the regular Kaio may have a lifespan of 75 thousand the Kaioshin would exceed that by being a different order of being

Are you sure about this? Here read...2014 interview Vs 2009 interview

I stand corrected.

Yes, you do. But why did you make it appear that it was me who made the incorrect statement, writing my name when quoting your own quote? I am sure it wasn’t intentional but please fix it. I fixed it for this post.

Again, it is understandable in this regard. This is 5 years later. He had probably forget a great deal about the story. In fact he says something along those lines. The fact of the matter is they do have a lifespan and they do age.

So no. It doesn't contradict it. Only the recent lore change contradicts the Kaioshin's lifespans when they should be several million years.

So your logic is that Toriyama doesn't forget between 1995 and 2009 but forgets between 2009 and 2014. I see. Very strong argument! Better convince yourself first about it! But I am more inclined to believe that both the 2009 and 2014 information Toriyama gave us is just made up lore of the moment that does not reflect his intentions while writing the manga or at least certain portions of the manga. He came up with this new lore afterwards forgetting or ignoring the repercussions that it has on several details of the story presented in the original manga.

And this means what? Things change. This was millions of years ago. It is highly possible that Beerus stopped going to these meetings after this happened. Or there could be other reasons. Who knows?

Well for starters nothing suggests in this interview that the meetings ever stopped. In the very same interview Toriyama stated that the Kaioshins' lifespan is only 75,000 years and that they grow like a plant in their planet after one dies...What all this means is how inconsistent to previous lore the new lore can be. Though it is OK to have something retconned its validity only holds for any material released from that point onwards. It is doesn't hold much or any value in the interpretation of things that came beforehand, e.g. the manga. Especially when we are talking about a forgetful person like Toriyama.

2009 was not self contradictory. Only the recent stuff has been contradictory. As far as I'm concerned even the self-contradicting information is more credible than a fan who just wants to believe something so much that they will ignore all statements or twist them to suit their own opinion. You go on about things like "It's obvious that troublesome means strong." yet you ignore the blatant statement from Goku saying he and Vegeta can't beat Evil Boo and roll it off as "Oh! It must mean their size!" or "Goku is just hiding the fact he can beat Boo to spare Vegeta's pride!" everything but the most obvious meaning to his words that they can't beat Evil Boo which is that they can't. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you want to believe that Toriyama in 1994-1995 thought of the things he said in the 2009 interview all along or that those static multipliers in SEG hold any value in the interpretation of the story, or that the manga is flawless and never retconned anything it is your prerogative. You may also believe in Santa Claus too.

And no it is certainly not just me who supports what I am saying. It is the entire anime too! And you from all people dares to talk about fans that want to believe something so much. Someone who thinks that the entire anime was wrong, kept being wrong and continues to be wrong. And, yet, despite ignoring the anime because to you is contradictory, you admit that you make use of another contradictory non-manga piece of information, alongside third party 2009 multipliers from a retconned databook. Someone who picks and choose and twists the new lore (see Vegeta saying Goku is no.1) trying to support your headcanons which are otherwise constantly collapsing.

As I pointed out earlier the manga never says that Enma traversed Snakeway to receiver training.

There was no mention of Enma crossing the snakeway to meet the Kaio. Neither is there any mention of why he crossed it. It could be for any number of reasons. Maybe he was visiting another Kaio? Maybe he did it to train?

Or ... maybe Enma travelled snakeway to tell Kaio hello. Or maybe to deliver him milk. Or a newspaper. Or, wait, to tell him a new joke. Or better to read him your post. Clutching at straws is always funny after all. And perhaps that was too the intention of all the others who tried to traverse snakeway but failed.

The Kaioshin world is special. You're speaking as if just because he went there dead it MUST mean that it is in other world. Despite the author contradicting that with his Dragon World Map.

A post-manga map...

And yes I would assume that it does have different rules considering Goku could go there dead. And no, I think it is a pretty big leap to assume that time flows differently there.

So what you are essentially saying is that: “The Kaioshins planet is different from the Mortal World, hence it must be like the Mortal World!”

And why is it weird for Enma to have a lifespan surpassing the Kaio and Kaioshin? He is in charge of sending spirits to hell or heaven or reincarnating them. Why wouldn't someone like that have a long lifespan? Heck, he could be immortal.

Except that the manga and all of Akira Toriyama's statements state that they DO have a finite lifespan. It may be the case that there are conflicts between the story and his statements but the one true remaining factor that does not change across them all is that they do age and die. So to say that they were not intended to have a finite lifespan despite dialogue from the manga and Akira's statements is just silly. They clearly do have a finite lifespan even if it is inconsistent.

Further more you keep bringing up that "Other World where time doesn't flow." As if it literally means there is no time there. Please stop making that assumption. We know for a fact that there is time there because the Kaio's do age and die. What Goku more likely meant by his statement is that it is a world without change because spirits go on indefinitely there. In fact the Viz translate it as "That SSJ3 can only be done in the afterlife, where time doesn't mean much."

To me it is more than clear that the afterlife deities and beings weren’t meant to have finite lifespans when the manga was written – especially in the Saiyan arc and all the way up until almost the end of the Buu arc. That is why Enma has lived for over 100 million years. And nowhere in the manga is it mentioned that Kaio would die or be replaced either. Heck Kaio actually died by Cell’s explosion and continued to be a Kaio! And you are still telling me that Toriyama meant to have him age, die and replaced while writing that part of the manga! And what about Enma Daio referring to Dabra when he died that he never thought Dabra would ever die. Even the very distinction that is made about “mere mortals” and “mortal world/plane” suggests that mortals are beings subjected to death as opposed to beings (like those in the afterlife) that have eternal life (and only die if killed).

The first and only mention of finite lifespan is by Elder Kaioshin which could well be due to the fusion with someone with finite lifespan. Even then it doesn't change anything. It could well be the first time this was ever thought by Toriyama. This is chapter 501, 25 whole chapters from when Goku spoke about time flow and 22 chapters from when he went to the Kaioshins realm in chapter 478. And even if they were meant to age and die (which they didn't but anyway) what is to say that their long lifespans are not exactly due to the time flowing differently (or not at all) in their realm. Dead Goku didn't age physically after all. He even stated he won't age in the afterlife when he wished to remain dead at the end of the Cell arc. And Goku despite being given Elder Kaioshins’ remaining 1000-year lifetime he would still die in 40 in the mortal world.

Furthermore you are making the assumption that Goku’s dead body in afterlife is physically different from the one we have seen on his return day on Earth. That is a baseless assumption as we have seen that both when Goku left the other world to come to the Earth as well as when he left Earth to go back to the other World his body was the same and unmodified. Enma Daio didn’t give Goku a special “mortal-life body” to go to Earth, neither did he give Goku a new “afterlife body” when he returned from Earth to the Other World either. Goku had the same body all along. And with that same body he could do SSJ3 in afterlife without problem but on Earth he had trouble to sustain/achieve the maximum power of SSJ3. And the reason stated in the *manga* is the time flow. It is THAT clear! Why this is even up for debate is beyond me.

Furthermore whether time flows or not has no bearing on Goku's maximum power output. As I've been saying repeatedly.

The attitude of “my headcanon is holier than yours” at its worst! Just because you say it repeatedly doesn't make it true! It is still your headcanon. A baseless one too as I will show to you below.

Characters have a limit to how much energy they can hold in their bodies.

For some reason you believe that Goku’s body has a fixed, unchangeable upper limit of power it can sustain in relation to his normal base maximum. And this is method dependent too. As if given a method their is a maximum multiplier your body can sustain and this is unchangeable. Yet we have seen:
1. Goku pushing his Kaioken limit upwards through increase of his base. His body limit was Kaiokenx4 in the Saiyan arc, then x10 after his spaceship training and then up to x20 against Freeza. Then Kaioken was abandoned in favour of the SSJ but the point is that he kept increasing that multiplier that was previously his limit. Same method, upper multiplier limit pushed higher and higher.
2. In BoGs Vegeta while having a base about as equal as Goku (if not slightly lower) he reached a level higher than the supposedly maximum limit of Super Saiyan’s linage (400*[normal base]).

That proves that it is possible to exceed a multiplier body limits using the same power-up method.

To surpass that they must put it into Ki attacks. The most recent and prime example is Piccolo's Makankosappo in Dragon Ball Super.

Ki attacks have nothing to do with how much Ki your body can hold. The reason Ki attacks are (usually) more powerful than one’s battle power level is that they are techniques allowing you to concentrate/focus all or part of the energy of your entire body into a single point. This was established back in chapter 14 of the manga and repeated multiple times throughout the series, eg. by Radditz.

Furthermore it was shown that it IS possible to concentrate your energy internally just as powerfully too. Goku’s best move in the Piccolo Daimao arc was not the Kamehemeha but the “Oozaru fist” where he even says I have all my power in that punch. He defeated Piccolo with it and when he tried it again against Popo, Popo had to dodge it. Additionally Piccolo chose to kick 50% Freeza and knocked him well away. Given their power difference it was an amplied attack too. Also if your logic were correct you would have to wonder why Piccolo didn’t he use a ki blast if that was going to be more powerful than a kick…

Besides Goku against Ginyu and Piccolo against Gero described that they can use their power in bursts and this would result into much more powerful and faster attacks momentarily than normally.

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P14.3
Context: After Gero stealing all Piccolo’s energy and adding to his own wonders how (a healed) Piccolo can beat him up and be so much stronger than himself.
Piccolo: “Commit this to memory: when we fight, we amplify what you guys call ‘energy’, causing it to explode. That’s why the energy you stole from me earlier doesn’t matter…”

I take that what Gero sensed as 'energy' was the same thing the scouter power levels had been (perhaps different scale but that is irrelevant). So again amplified attacks using hand in hand combat by using their power in bursts. When Goku said this to Ginyu, Ginyu didn't even know what it was. Neither was Gero when he was told so by Piccolo. So clearly a fighting technique.

If this time stuff was a thing the only benefit it would provide to Goku is the prevention of his power loss through maintaining the transformation. Nothing more, nothing less.

Spoiler:

Essentially:

Earth
SSJ3 power drain: 10 KPS(Ki per second)

AfterLife
SSJ3 power drain: 10 KPS = 0 due to no time passed

Kaioshin World
SSJ3 power drain: 10 KPS = 5 KPS if only half the time passes on the Kaioshin World.

His bodies limits would still be imposed. He would still only be able to hold the amount of Ki his body could sustain, i.e. 100%

Even if we assume that the body limit was even a thing (which is non-sense but anyway), we still never saw SSJ3 Goku at his 100% in the manga. Second, the problem was like Ki inflow and outflow in a tank where the outflow is comparable to the inflow reducing the net inflow. Or like trying to charge a phone while keep playing games draning the battery. In other words the drainage reduces the net rate of increase. But that rate of increase or change of energy is actually your available power (power=energy/time).

Earth
SSJ3 power gathering/input=15
SSJ3 power drain/loss=12
Net power output=15-12=3

AfterLife
SSJ3 power gathering/input=15
SSJ3 power drain/loss=0
Net power output=15-0=15

Kaioshin World
SSJ3 power gathering/input=15
SSJ3 power drain/loss=6
Net power output=15-6=9

So in the above example we even assume that Goku's body does have a limit as SSJ3. This is to output 15 Ki units per second and it can be achieved in the afterlife due to no time flow. But on earth due to the drainage it could output only 3 Ki units per second and in the Kaioshin's World where the drainage is halved he can output 9 units per second. That makes him 3x stronger than the maximum he could be on Earth.

[Hitiro]

Who here is assuming more and what? By his own words Toriyama drew the map at *best* literally the day after the end of the manga (chapter 519). Still dead Goku went to Kaioshin’s planet in chapter 478, almost a year earlier! You randomly *assume* that Toriyama planned the map in his head a whole year ahead while himself stated multiple times that he doesn’t plan much ahead – he didn't even do it for serious concepts like Piccolo and Goku being aliens (something stated he pre-planned only about 30 chapters ahead (6-7 months)). And still you believe he thought the map, which is a mere detail in comparison, a whole year ahead? Heck, Toriyama even said that during the Cell arc he was literally making stuff up while writing chapter by chapter. So if anyone here is making assumptions about the map’s date of conception this is certainly not me.

No, I haven't assumed that Toriyama planned this map in his head a whole year ahead. You're putting words in my mouth. What I said was that from what he said in the interview he drew the map as soon has he finished drawing the manga. The map is what he came up with to make sense of what he had drawn. But that's neither here nor there. The fact is that the Kaioshin planet IS outside of the other realms. You can argue about it as much as you like and call the man on the mistakes of the things he's done in the following years but it doesn't change the fact that this is how he viewed it. So stop trying to get around it just because it doesn't fit with your ideal scenario. Accept that the man views the universe like this, flawed as it may be.

A year, not a few months. Still it means that nothing that comes from Troiyama's post-manga lore is infallible or the way he was thinking while writing the manga. Most importantly it means that at best this lore just tries (though sometimes failing) to fit in the manga's lore. Not the other way round.

Look, you're just looking for reasons for you to be right rather than accepting these facts and moving on. Whether he makes mistakes or not this is how he viewed the Kaioshin Realm looked on the world map. And it certainly isn't inconsistent with what we were told because it was generally vague anyway.

Are you sure about this? Here read...2014 interview Vs 2009 interview

I stand corrected.

Yes, you do. But why did you make it appear that it was me who made the incorrect statement, writing my name when quoting your own quote? I am sure it wasn’t intentional but please fix it. I fixed it for this post.[/quote]Are you really going to be that petty and pull me on this and ignore everything I said afterwards?

So your logic is that Toriyama doesn't forget between 1995 and 2009 but forgets between 2009 and 2014. I see. Very strong argument! Better convince yourself first about it! But I am more inclined to believe that both the 2009 and 2014 information Toriyama gave us is just made up lore of the moment that does not reflect his intentions while writing the manga or at least certain portions of the manga. He came up with this new lore afterwards forgetting or ignoring the repercussions that it has on several details of the story presented in the original manga.

My logic is that the man is bound to forget things. But I take what he says in stride and just accept that he has changed the universes lore. Despite the issues it brings up. You're the one here who is constantly grasping for a reason to say your view of the story is correct. Again, I'm not the one trying to make the story conform to my own ideals. I am merely going with what is said in the manga, anime and databooks. You bring up the man's issues and flaws with lore just so you can say "Well he was wrong here, so he must be wrong in general therefore my opinion must be correct!" Despite that there are numerous contradictions to your own opinion that people have challenged and have had really weak arguments for. But I won't go into these because every time I bring them up, with any Pro-Pure Boo advocate, you always state the same unreasonable arguments because logic be damned when it comes to the flow of a story or why a character would act a certain way. Because all that matters at the end of the day is the end result to you guys.

Well for starters nothing suggests in this interview that the meetings ever stopped. In the very same interview Toriyama stated that the Kaioshins' lifespan is only 75,000 years and that they grow like a plant in their planet after one dies...What all this means is how inconsistent to previous lore the new lore can be. Though it is OK to have something retconned its validity only holds for any material released from that point onwards. It is doesn't hold much or any value in the interpretation of things that came beforehand, e.g. the manga. Especially when we are talking about a forgetful person like Toriyama.

Just because the interview doesn't clarify if the meetings stopped or not doesn't mean they continued. I'm not saying they didn't. What I'm saying is that because Toriyama didn't elaborate further then it is anyone's guess. But it would make sense for this to be the case seeing as the younger Kaioshin has never met Beerus.

If you want to believe that Toriyama in 1994-1995 thought of the things he said in the 2009 interview all along or that those static multipliers in SEG hold any value in the interpretation of the story, or that the manga is flawless and never retconned anything it is your prerogative. You may also believe in Santa Claus too.

Again, I never said he was flawless. I do think that he could be more accurate closer to when he was writing the manga though. But that is neither here nor there. You're the one with the issue of the material because you can't accept things the way they are. Even with the flaws. Because they don't agree with your view. Instead of complaining about the guys failings you should probably be constructing a better argument. Because I've yet to see a decent argument supporting Pure Boo's strength on this forum. It's always the same spiel that is either illogical or completely making guesswork to try and avoid the obvious of answers. Which is kind of funny when you're the one complaining that nobody is taking the "obvious" answer to what "troublesome" meant as you're fine to ignore another obvious statement if it is detrimental to your argument but you are perfectly fine on calling people out on not taking the obvious answer to one that helps your opinion. Despite the fact that troublesome is a word used in many situations and couldn't be any more vague than it already is.

And no it is certainly not just me who supports what I am saying. It is the entire anime too! And you from all people dares to talk about fans that want to believe something so much. Someone who thinks that the entire anime was wrong, kept being wrong and continues to be wrong. And, yet, despite ignoring the anime because to you is contradictory, you admit that you make use of another contradictory non-manga piece of information, alongside third party 2009 multipliers from a retconned databook. Someone who picks and choose and twists the new lore (see Vegeta saying Goku is no.1) trying to support your headcanons which are otherwise constantly collapsing.

You say "retconned" but never is it ever said that this databook is retconned. Furthermore I choose to except the multipliers because they generally work. Despite people like you who complain and whine when their own view is not adhered to. And here is another prime example of a generally bad argument. Because people like you keep bringing up the Goku is no.1 point. I assume you mean when he says it in Chou? Because he never says that Goku is no. 1 in the Dragon Ball manga. But to get to the point if you want to argue about this statement it is already a fallacy. Goku defeats Boo via a Genki Dama which was formed by all of Earth's inhabitants plus a few additional friends. So Goku is no. 1 because he beat Boo? Then I guess if Kuririn could form a Genki Dama and was the one who took out Boo with it he would also be no. 1? This is why this statement has literally no bearing on strength. You could even say that Vegeta has his own rating system where it is just the two of them and he is saying Goku is no. 1 out of the two of them. This is the point I was talking about earlier. It is a really weak argument to say Goku is superior to everyone else just because he managed to defeat the enemy with the aid of everyone else.

Or ... maybe Enma travelled snakeway to tell Kaio hello. Or maybe to deliver him milk. Or a newspaper. Or, wait, to tell him a new joke. Or better to read him your post. Clutching at straws is always funny after all. And perhaps that was too the intention of all the others who tried to traverse snakeway but failed.

So when you're wrong you say that people are clutching straws? Good job. How about you go away and think up something else? Because it is you clutching at straws now. This is the problem with you guys who want to support Pure Boo over Evil Boo. When someone proves you incorrect all you can say is "you're clutching at straws" you're not decent enough to say that you stand corrected. You pretty much highlighted me saying "I stand corrected" earlier. So I see how it is. If I'm wrong then its a win for every Pure Boo supporter everywhere but when its yourselves I must be clutching at straws. Furthermore I never actually gave a definitive answer as to what Enma was doing. I merely suggested some things. The thing with this dialogue is that while he did cross it, it doesn't say why or for whom. So unless you can prove that he crossed it to train with the current Kaio it is up in the air. I hate using this because it gets thrown around a lot but the burden of proof is on you to prove that it was this Kaio he was going to see. Because otherwise we can make up whatever reason we want until Toriyama comes along and says differently. He could have done it for a bet against one of his employees. He could have done it to get away from his job for a while. He could have done it for a little exercise. I could say anything within reason and it could be an acceptable reason.

A post-manga map...

This should matter why? You're the one with the issue with it. Everybody else is fine with accepting it. Flaws and all. But you can't can you because you want to be right about this. Correct?

So what you are essentially saying is that: “The Kaioshins planet is different from the Mortal World, hence it must be like the Mortal World!”

I'm saying that it is big leap because you're happy to just make up whatever you want to suit your own opinion. You may look over the threads we have made. Whenever there is something uncertain I will always put that the vagueness of that something could mean numerous things. Like the "troublesome" quote or like Enma crossing Snakeway. And any assumptions I make are clear and I try to avoid using them in my own view of the manga to not just spout crazy rubbish. I will even try to support both sides of the argument if you check by saying things like "Even if time did move differently there." Something you omitted. But through all of this I have never gone "Well I assume that time moves differently here, so that must mean Goku is more powerful there and therefore Boo is more powerful too." This is pretty much what you have done. You didn't even say that it was your assumption actually. You literally said "you can say that the conditions on Kaioshin’s planet are somewhere in-between those of afterlife and those of the mortal world. In other words contrary to the Other World where time doesn't flow, time may flow on Kaioshin’s planet but still slower than in the mortal world." This is honestly one giant ass pull just to make your opinion fit. Rather than rely on actual facts from the story.

To me it is more than clear that the afterlife deities and beings weren’t meant to have finite lifespans when the manga was written – especially in the Saiyan arc and all the way up until almost the end of the Buu arc. That is why Enma has lived for over 100 million years. And nowhere in the manga is it mentioned that Kaio would die or be replaced either. Heck Kaio actually died by Cell’s explosion and continued to be a Kaio! And you are still telling me that Toriyama meant to have him age, die and replaced while writing that part of the manga! And what about Enma Daio referring to Dabra when he died that he never thought Dabra would ever die. Even the very distinction that is made about “mere mortals” and “mortal world/plane” suggests that mortals are beings subjected to death as opposed to beings (like those in the afterlife) that have eternal life (and only die if killed).

To you assumptions must mean that your opinion is correct. All I've seen from you these past few posts is assumptions based around vague points and even re-writing the physics of the Dragon Ball world to suit your opinion. Like your assumption that time moves differently on the Kaioshin world and that it must mean Goku is powered up by it. We literally get dialogue pertaining to the mightiest of the deities having large lifespans. Kami was also considered a deity but it was shown that he doesn't have an infinite lifepan either. You can say what you want about what Akira Toriyama did or didn't want but the fact of the matter is that he has placed a cap on their lifespans. Frankly I don't see why you're complaining about this when it was decided in the very chapters we're on about. So you agree with the current chapters only up until lifespans are involved and then it's unacceptable because the beginning of the manga made you feel another way. This all really stems from the very opinion we are arguing about really. If it weren't for the fact that you're trying to support your claims then you wouldn't care at all about their lifespans. As for the Dabra statement it is another vague statement. You could say that Enma meant that he never imagined Dabra would die from being killed. Or you could take it that he never fought Dabra would die period. But why should that change anything? I imagine it is possible for their to be races that do have an infinite lifespan. And again you're making assumptions about how the after life works. Nobody is specifically said to have eternal life. Enma could have a maximum lifespan. When I said he could be immortal I said it because it is a possibility. Not a certainty. Especially with every other deity having a lifespan so far. Though Whis also asked if Goku would take over for Beerus when he dies. I can't imagine anybody killing Beerus but it certainly is a possibility now that we've seen another God of Destruction. But maybe he also has an infinite lifespan? Or maybe he will die soon of natural causes? Or maybe Whis knows that Beerus is going to die by someone soon?

The first and only mention of finite lifespan is by Elder Kaioshin which could well be due to the fusion with someone with finite lifespan. Even then it doesn't change anything. It could well be the first time this was ever thought by Toriyama. This is chapter 501, 25 whole chapters from when Goku spoke about time flow and 22 chapters from when he went to the Kaioshins realm in chapter 478. And even if they were meant to age and die (which they didn't but anyway) what is to say that their long lifespans are not exactly due to the time flowing differently (or not at all) in their realm.

You say this could well be due to fusion but as I have already told you he references the young Kaioshin's lifespan when he says that it would be best for his life to be given. So it isn't fusion which granted him a finite life. They already have these. And again need I remind you that beings age at different rates so you're obviously not going to see much of a feature change with beings that can live for millions of years. Looking at another fantasy story Elves in certain stories are hundreds of years old and you don't notice a change in their appearance. Why would the young Kaioshin all of a sudden change after 5 years? That would be equivalent to a couple of minutes to him surely? Furthermore the young Kaioshin had been searching for Babidi's ship and Boo's egg. The ship had been moved there, if you're just going by the manga dialogue, within the past 300 years.

Dead Goku didn't age physically after all. He even stated he won't age in the afterlife when he wished to remain dead at the end of the Cell arc. And Goku despite being given Elder Kaioshins’ remaining 1000-year lifetime he would still die in 40 in the mortal world.

A dead Goku doesn't age because he is dead. If it were his environment then Kaio's world would be the ideal place to train indefinitely if it was just a matter of living there in other world. Furthermore we are still told that the Kaio age and die by the databooks even if there are contradictions to their actual lifespan. So if Kaio's world is in the Other World and he still ages and dies then of course time still moves for living beings. Also, lifespan does not equate to an actual life. Where are you getting this idea from? Just because the Rou Kaioshin gave up his life does not mean that the total lifespan he had left would be Goku's. That would suggest that the transferring of Elder Kaioshin's lifespan would somehow alter the genetic make-up of Goku to make him age differently.

Furthermore you are making the assumption that Goku’s dead body in afterlife is physically different from the one we have seen on his return day on Earth. That is a baseless assumption as we have seen that both when Goku left the other world to come to the Earth as well as when he left Earth to go back to the other World his body was the same and unmodified.

You say I made a baseless assumption when you didn't even read what my assumption was. I said that Goku not ageing was a direct result of him being dead and not the environment he was in. So of course his body was the same.

Enma Daio didn’t give Goku a special “mortal-life body” to go to Earth, neither did he give Goku a new “afterlife body” when he returned from Earth to the Other World either. Goku had the same body all along. And with that same body he could do SSJ3 in afterlife without problem but on Earth he had trouble to sustain/achieve the maximum power of SSJ3. And the reason stated in the *manga* is the time flow. It is THAT clear! Why this is even up for debate is beyond me.

There is a difference here. Goku is DEAD! That is the reason why his body can sustain SSJ3 differently than normal. Again if you check the English translation of the manga it states that in the afterlife "time doesn't mean much" which means time is there it just doesn't mean much to dead people because the dead don't age. So when Goku says that time flows in the mortal realm he is specifically on about the trait inherent in dead people. Just like how Dead Goku is effected by time on Earth an alive Goku in the after life won't receive the benefit of being dead while he is alive.

The attitude of “my headcanon is holier than yours” at its worst! Just because you say it repeatedly doesn't make it true! It is still your headcanon. A baseless one too as I will show to you below.

Says the guy who is just making up assumptions and then purely assigning them to be facts to back up your "headcanon"? It is a simple fact the manga has REPEATEDLY shown that characters can't go beyond their limit of Ki without putting it into some sort of attack.

For some reason you believe that Goku’s body has a fixed, unchangeable upper limit of power it can sustain in relation to his normal base maximum. And this is method dependent too. As if given a method their is a maximum multiplier your body can sustain and this is unchangeable.

Because as I've said repeatedly without a technique to due so it is impossible yet you keep ignoring this fact and keep going on about it. Goku was powering up when Vegeta was fending Boo off to buy him some time. Unless you know something I don't and Goku had some secret technique like a Super Kaioken specifically developed to enhance the power of his SSJ3 form then there is no way for him to go beyond the SSJ3 limit. Unless he was charging a Kamehameha and putting the Ki into the attack so he could have an attack surpassing the limits of his body. Was he doing that too? No, he wasn't. Or he received a rage boost to increase his power further? No? Then there is literally no other option for him to enhance his power.

1. Goku pushing his Kaioken limit upwards through increase of his base. His body limit was Kaiokenx4 in the Saiyan arc, then x10 after his spaceship training and then up to x20 against Freeza. Then Kaioken was abandoned in favour of the SSJ but the point is that he kept increasing that multiplier that was previously his limit. Same method, upper multiplier limit pushed higher and higher.

Again, a technique. This is supposed to allow him to go beyond the limits of his 100% just like how when he fired his Kamehameha against Raditz it doubled his battle power reading. This is the ONLY way for him to do it.

2. In BoGs Vegeta while having a base about as equal as Goku (if not slightly lower) he reached a level higher than the supposedly maximum limit of Super Saiyan’s linage (400*[normal base]).

An assumption. Because we don't know if Vegeta was stronger than Goku in equal forms at this time. It is your opinion that he is equal or lower.

That proves that it is possible to exceed a multiplier body limits using the same power-up method.

Give me proof that Vegeta is equal or weaker than Goku? Because otherwise this isn't proof. Vegeta could be stronger than Goku in base with Goku being superior only because he has SSJ3.

Ki attacks have nothing to do with how much Ki your body can hold. The reason Ki attacks are (usually) more powerful than one’s battle power level is that they are techniques allowing you to concentrate/focus all or part of the energy of your entire body into a single point. This was established back in chapter 14 of the manga and repeated multiple times throughout the series, eg. by Radditz.

That is literally what I'm saying. Or are you going to be pedantic and just pick at my wording? What I'm saying is that the only way they can surpass the 100% Ki they have in their body is via techniques, transformations or rage boosts. These are effectively the only three. But your assertion is that Goku had found a magical fourth way to amplify the Ki in his body past its current limits? Again, I require proof. Because this is all baseless assumption otherwise.

Furthermore it was shown that it IS possible to concentrate your energy internally just as powerfully too. Goku’s best move in the Piccolo Daimao arc was not the Kamehemeha but the “Oozaru fist” where he even says I have all my power in that punch. He defeated Piccolo with it and when he tried it again against Popo, Popo had to dodge it. Additionally Piccolo chose to kick 50% Freeza and knocked him well away. Given their power difference it was an amplied attack too. Also if your logic were correct you would have to wonder why Piccolo didn’t he use a ki blast if that was going to be more powerful than a kick…

Again, I require proof that Goku increased his power passed his 100% here. Both Piccolo and Goku had taken a fair amount of damage and lost enormous amounts of Ki. Can you prove that this punch wasn't just Goku willing all of his strength, or what was remaining, to defeat Piccolo? Unless you can provide proof then it means nothing. And proof that Piccolo's attack was an "amplified" attack? I was always under the impression that Freeza was caught off guard and that was why Piccolo's kick worked here. And the recent movie seems to agree with me that if you let your guard down you can be damaged or knocked away by someone weaker. Unless you want me to believe that Piccolo managed to pull off an "amplified attack" that is probably over 50x his battle power at this point? If that is the case Goku would not need 100% of his power to beat Boo if he could deal "amplified attacks" whenever he wants as if Piccolo can deal an "amplified attack" that is like 50x more powerful than a regular one then Goku should be able to do the equivalent. SSJ Trunks also kicked Boo who, if you were to use the SSJ multipliers(Just to provide and example) would mean he hit Boo with an "amplified attack" of around 8x.

Why aren't the characters not using these all the time? Why didn't Goku use this against Vegeta in his first fight? Why didn't he use it against Raditz? Raditz would be dead easily if they did this and Goku would not have to die. Why didn't Goku go "I know! One of us will hold him and the other will do an amplified attack! We don't need a ridiculously long charging beam that would kill both of us!" So yeah, this is a pretty weak argument unless you can rectify all the times they had a chance to use such a technique and didn't. And why it was decided that now, in the final fight of the manga, Goku was going to pull off an "amplified attack" to defeat Boo. As for why the kick over the Ki attack I would imagine it has more of a chance of catching Freeza off-guard and would actually knock him away from Goku to give Goku time. Frankly if someone shot a Ki blast at me I would probably hear it buzzing/whooshing through the air. Vegeta heard Kuririn's Kienzan and didn't hear Yajirobe's sword.

Besides Goku against Ginyu and Piccolo against Gero described that they can use their power in bursts and this would result into much more powerful and faster attacks momentarily than normally.

Goku was specifically on about Kaioken when he said this. And Piccolo said that they amplify their Ki at a moments notice so that's why the amount Dr. Gero took wasn't much. But you should know this as characters rarely stand around at 100% when they are in a battle arena. A prime example is Goku coming to fight Vegeta and Nappa. He had his battle power at 5,000. When he went to fight he amplified it to 8,000+ to fight. Or when he was fighting against the Ginyu force. He was reading at 5,000 and then pushing it up to conserve energy and to fool his enemies. This has nothing to do with going beyond their limits or anything.

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P14.3
Context: After Gero stealing all Piccolo’s energy and adding to his own wonders how (a healed) Piccolo can beat him up and be so much stronger than himself.
Piccolo: “Commit this to memory: when we fight, we amplify what you guys call ‘energy’, causing it to explode. That’s why the energy you stole from me earlier doesn’t matter…”

I take that what Gero sensed as 'energy' was the same thing the scouter power levels had been (perhaps different scale but that is irrelevant). So again amplified attacks using hand in hand combat by using their power in bursts. When Goku said this to Ginyu, Ginyu didn't even know what it was. Neither was Gero when he was told so by Piccolo. So clearly a fighting technique.

Again, you're misinterpreting. We already know what this is about. Piccolo is explaining to Dr. Gero that they aren't at their maximum before they fight. When they do fight they amplify their Ki to the appropriate level. In fact nowhere in the statement you posted said anything about using their power in bursts. That was only Goku's statement which is a correct one because he uses Kaioken in bursts. You're reaching incredibly here to assume this is on about something you just happened to assume exists. If the statement above were what you suggest then of course it would matter about the energy Dr. Gero absorbed because if Dr. Gero absorbed too much Piccolo would not be able to fight with the method you're assuming exists. As it stands, from what we know about suppressing Ki, the line above would be akin to this:

Piccolo(Suppressed): 10 Real Energy: 100
Dr. Gero: 50
Piccolo(Energy Absorbed): 10-9 = 1
Piccolo(Unsuppressed): 91

Even if we assume that the body limit was even a thing (which is non-sense but anyway)

Based on what? Can you show me a character just powering up past 100% without some sort of transformation, technique or rage boost?

we still never saw SSJ3 Goku at his 100% in the manga. Second, the problem was like Ki inflow and outflow in a tank where the outflow is comparable to the inflow reducing the net inflow. Or like trying to charge a phone while keep playing games draning the battery. In other words the drainage reduces the net rate of increase. But that rate of increase or change of energy is actually your available power (power=energy/time).

This is actually not a half bad answer from you for a change. It's at least logical. But I never said that Goku had reached 100% before this point in the manga. And I don't think he ever reached 100% because he never got the opportunity. While you say that the dialogue he said before he transformed must mean he is at 100% we know that can't be the case because Goku and Vegeta confirm it later by stating Goku has been trying to gather his Ki with all his might but has been unable to reach his limit. Then when he finally nearly reaches 100% his Ki starts falling off and then he reverts. Effectively Goku just underestimated the drainage of the transformation. That is not to say that he couldn't have beaten Boo at 100% he still thinks that he could. But going from this logic he didn't know that the SSJ3 form was so detrimental to a living body. And by extension he would have probably assumed that he could have thought Evil Boo at 100% but thought his 100% was not enough to beat Evil Boo. Even if you assume that he has some sort of magical "amplified attack" that he could whip out like you're saying he was going to to against Pure Boo the fact that he felt he could not accomplish it against Evil Boo shows that even with him perceiving his maximum output and and him using whatever he had in his arsenal to defeat Boo it still wouldn't bee enough against him. Yet he believed that he had a chance by himself against Pure Boo. Do you see?

Earth
SSJ3 power gathering/input=15
SSJ3 power drain/loss=12
Net power output=15-12=3

AfterLife
SSJ3 power gathering/input=15
SSJ3 power drain/loss=0
Net power output=15-0=15

Kaioshin World
SSJ3 power gathering/input=15
SSJ3 power drain/loss=6
Net power output=15-6=9

The issue with looking at it this way, even though I'll give you credit that it's way more thought out than some of the other stuff, is that Goku said he had nearly gathered 100% but then it had begun to fall off. So these numbers do not work. Nearly is not 60% as you have put his "Net Power Output" as here. I would say 90% is closer to nearly gathered 100% than this. This net power output would not explain how people can sense someone's 100% either. Characters can feel when someones Ki is at 100% yet here you're effectively saying that their output is variant on the Environment effectively meaning that these characters can never reach 100% unless time isn't involved. Yet contrary to this we have characters who are at maximum power despite Ki drain and time flowing normally. The characters themselves would also note that their maximum is different in a different environment. Yet we don't have any such point explained by the characters. You would think if their battlepower varied in the environments it would be a big factor. Enough for them to say "What? I'm not as strong here?!" or "I'm a little stronger here! I thought I'd be weaker!"

So in the above example we even assume that Goku's body does have a limit as SSJ3. This is to output 15 Ki units per second and it can be achieved in the afterlife due to no time flow. But on earth due to the drainage it could output only 3 Ki units per second and in the Kaioshin's World where the drainage is halved he can output 9 units per second. That makes him 3x stronger than he be on Earth.

No observation such as what you provided is ever made though. And like I said if it were the case you were saying we would get a clarification by the characters who would be effected by these things that they are stronger/weaker. And their 100% has always been shown/stated to be their capacity. Yet here you're suggesting that the capacity doesn't exist only a variance between loss and input? The other issue here is that a Base Saiyan does not suffer from "power drain" if the numbers you're providing are what you actually think and I'm going to say that Base Goku is like 15x weaker then for arguments sake just to demonstrate something, then Goku would be 1/3rd of SSJ3 on Earth. Purely because he isn't negatively effected by any sort of Power Drain. Or if we're going by SSJ and SSJ2 then they would be superior to SSJ3 considering their train is significantly less. Going by your Earth example again if SSJ2 Goku had an input of half of SSJ3 so 7.5 and a power loss of 3 then its output would be 4.5. And SSJ2 and SSJ don't have that heavy a power drain as we know. Because SSJ3's power drain on Earth was so immense that only a couple of minutes fighting Boo, if that, caused Goku to lose 6-10 hours of his time on Earth. In comparison a much more lengthy fight against Vegeta as a SSJ2 produced no discernible negative effects.

[Deathbringer]

The most recent thing that stands out to me as a straight up plot hole is probably in Battle of Gods after Bulma gets slapped by Beerus and Vegeta gets so angry that he surpasses Goku's strength, although I think the scene is great it doesn't make sense when I actually started thinking about it. Goku was SSJ3 when he fought Beerus on Kaio's planet and he couldn't lay a finger on him, this means that Vegeta was able to SURPASS SSJ3 just by getting angry, I remember SSJ3 being a monstrously strong power when it was introduced (I mean SSJ3 itself doesn't make sense to me either (If I'm being honest SSJG & SSJGSSJ made more logical sense to me) but that's another story...) but if Vegeta can reach that level of power by just getting angry then that means the training Goku is doing is a waste of time since getting stronger through anger is more effective.

Also in the original story whenever anyone becomes stronger than previously thought possible it can sometimes feel like a plothole, especially when someone reaches their "full potential" but then later on just surpasses it like its nothing, it happens more than a few times, even though "reaching full potential" usually implies that they can't possibly get any stronger. None of this ruins the series for me because Dragon Ball is at its most entertaining when the viewer/reader has full suspension of disbelief, and most plotholes can just be explained to stop them having that much of a damaging effect on the story (like maybe getting angry really is the most effective way to get stronger, there, now you have some new logic for the way anger works in Dragon Ball, and looking at Teen Gohan it fits into the world for the most part)

Any plot holes that DBSuper has in its retellings of Battle of Gods and Resurrection F can just be explained by having the movies be part of the "Toriyama Canon" whereas Super is part of the "Toei Canon", there, done. The movies were better told and animated anyway. Of course the new Universe 6 Tournament story arc would be part of the "Toriyama Canon" because it's the only medium that the story has been told through thus far, maybe we'll get a movie of it soon who knows.

[Darkprince410]

The most recent thing that stands out to me as a straight up plot hole is probably in Battle of Gods after Bulma gets slapped by Beerus and Vegeta gets so angry that he surpasses Goku's strength, although I think the scene is great it doesn't make sense when I actually started thinking about it. Goku was SSJ3 when he fought Beerus on Kaio's planet and he couldn't lay a finger on him, this means that Vegeta was able to SURPASS SSJ3 just by getting angry, I remember SSJ3 being a monstrously strong power when it was introduced (I mean SSJ3 itself doesn't make sense to me either (If I'm being honest SSJG & SSJGSSJ made more logical sense to me) but that's another story...) but if Vegeta can reach that level of power by just getting angry then that means the training Goku is doing is a waste of time since getting stronger through anger is more effective.

The majority of Gohan's rage boosts, with the exception of his during the Cell Games, have only been temporary in nature, and since he's really the only one that's had any kind of legitimate boost from growing angry, we can infer from him that rage boosts are just temporary in nature, so despite Vegeta passing up Goku with the rage boost he got, he doesn't retain that power once all is said and done (i.e. after his Galic Ho)

[Hitiro]

The most recent thing that stands out to me as a straight up plot hole is probably in Battle of Gods after Bulma gets slapped by Beerus and Vegeta gets so angry that he surpasses Goku's strength, although I think the scene is great it doesn't make sense when I actually started thinking about it. Goku was SSJ3 when he fought Beerus on Kaio's planet and he couldn't lay a finger on him, this means that Vegeta was able to SURPASS SSJ3 just by getting angry, I remember SSJ3 being a monstrously strong power when it was introduced (I mean SSJ3 itself doesn't make sense to me either (If I'm being honest SSJG & SSJGSSJ made more logical sense to me) but that's another story...) but if Vegeta can reach that level of power by just getting angry then that means the training Goku is doing is a waste of time since getting stronger through anger is more effective.

Also in the original story whenever anyone becomes stronger than previously thought possible it can sometimes feel like a plothole, especially when someone reaches their "full potential" but then later on just surpasses it like its nothing, it happens more than a few times, even though "reaching full potential" usually implies that they can't possibly get any stronger. None of this ruins the series for me because Dragon Ball is at its most entertaining when the viewer/reader has full suspension of disbelief, and most plotholes can just be explained to stop them having that much of a damaging effect on the story (like maybe getting angry really is the most effective way to get stronger, there, now you have some new logic for the way anger works in Dragon Ball, and looking at Teen Gohan it fits into the world for the most part)

Any plot holes that DBSuper has in its retellings of Battle of Gods and Resurrection F can just be explained by having the movies be part of the "Toriyama Canon" whereas Super is part of the "Toei Canon", there, done. The movies were better told and animated anyway. Of course the new Universe 6 Tournament story arc would be part of the "Toriyama Canon" because it's the only medium that the story has been told through thus far, maybe we'll get a movie of it soon who knows.

As Darkprince410 has mentioned all of the rage boosts up until Vegeta's were temporary. I would say that even the Cell Games one was, in my opinion, Gohan was just perpetually angry at this point rather than having an out of control burst of rage. Gohan's battle power has varied throughout the series. His initial Battle Power boost from rage shot him up to 1,307. It is unclear where is base battle power lied because Raditz also picked his battle power up as 710 before his actual rage boost. Though I guess the 710 could have been a slight anger boost? We also have him do a proper one against Freeza. At the time Gohan's battle power was in the 10's of thousands. So for him to match Freeza's second and third form with that his battle power would have had to have shot up to over 100x what it was. So a rage boost can vary from around 1.8x(Assuming that Gohan's 710 was his base battle power.) to the minimum of 100x. So there is plenty of leeway for a SSJ or SSJ2 Vegeta to receive enough of a boost to surpass SSJ3 if you follow the guidebooks multipliers. Even if you don't and assume that the SSJ power increases are more or less than what is shown in the guidebooks a 100x boost to your battle power would be an insane amount. And frankly I don't think there is that much of a difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3 given that Majin Vegeta could still do damage to Fat Boo and Pure Boo. In comparison Base Gotenks against Evil Boo, with all the blows he landed, didn't lay a scratch on Evil Boo.