Anyone consider or want GT as canon?

[TheZFighter]

I've given Dragon Ball GT more than a fair chance ever since it first broadcast in the UK, but I just find it so painfully awful to watch I can never get through more than the first few episodes. I'm glad it generally isn't considered "canon" as that might be enough to completely spoil the series for me.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

I've given Dragon Ball GT more than a fair chance ever since it first broadcast in the UK, but I just find it so painfully awful to watch I can never get through more than the first few episodes. I'm glad it generally isn't considered "canon" as that might be enough to completely spoil the series for me.

Why would GT being Canon make the original series any less enjoyable? It's not like you would be required to watch GT. It seems to me like the real question behind "is this canon" is "do I have to like and accept this" or even sometimes "can I disregard people who talk about this?" (The latter is mainly the sense I get from YouTube comments. I saw one thread about Broly where someone tried to end the discussion by saying "Broly isn't real")

[TheZFighter]

Why would GT being Canon make the original series any less enjoyable? It's not like you would be required to watch GT. It seems to me like the real question behind "is this canon" is "do I have to like and accept this" or even sometimes "can I disregard people who talk about this?" (The latter is mainly the sense I get from YouTube comments. I saw one thread about Broly where someone tried to end the discussion by saying "Broly isn't real")

Have you heard of "jumping the shark?"

I've never tried to disregard people who talk about GT but I don't pretend to enjoy any of it.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

Why would GT being Canon make the original series any less enjoyable? It's not like you would be required to watch GT. It seems to me like the real question behind "is this canon" is "do I have to like and accept this" or even sometimes "can I disregard people who talk about this?" (The latter is mainly the sense I get from YouTube comments. I saw one thread about Broly where someone tried to end the discussion by saying "Broly isn't real")

Have you heard of "jumping the shark?"

I've never tried to disregard people who talk about GT but I don't pretend to enjoy any of it.

The part about insulting people was not aimed at you, just the general fandom who takes "canon" too seriously. You did say GT being canon would ruin the series though, which still doesn't make much sense.

[Hellspawn28]

People mention Xenoverse a while back in this thread, with the idea of time travel that Xenoverse could be canon in it's own universe. There is likely millions of alternate timelines that exist in Universe 7 because of time travel. Mess up one thing, a new time line is made.

[TheMikado]

Honestly up until this past weeks episode, the Akira interview, and subsequent leaks I would have be arguing that GT deserves to be canon, and it still does. The reality as I'm an looking at the complete BS that is Super and what it's doing to established rules of the DB universe and realized GT is honestly too good and faithful to the proceeding works then the series deserves to have. Even drawing on previously established lore to create SSJ4 was completely inspired.

Watching Akira revive Gokus Kaioken with SSB to take on Hit
The rumored return of Future Trunks
The general jobbing and mischaracterization of everyone in super so much that they are all parodies in themselves.
I'm just tired of fighting the poor story writing and is this is what fans want so be it.

So no I want GT to forever be know as the series NOT written by Toriyama and I guarantee by the end of the next 5 years his works, particularly Super. Will be exposed as poor story writing in general. This is not to say he did not have excellent stories in some parts of the Dragonball series. But continuous upping the anti to now God levels is a fanboys wet dream which Akira himself admitted wasn't even his idea and it shows all over in his work.its really sad that his likely final work will burn down the house he painstakingly developed over decades.

[Zephyr]

People mention Xenoverse a while back in this thread, with the idea of time travel that Xenoverse could be canon in it's own universe. There is likely millions of alternate timelines that exist in Universe 7 because of time travel. Mess up one thing, a new time line is made.

Yep, that's exactly my rationale. That game literally opened the door for essentially anything and everything to be canon (barring the live action movies) to a singular super-continuity.

[TheZFighter]

The part about insulting people was not aimed at you, just the general fandom who takes "canon" too seriously. You did say GT being canon would ruin the series though, which still doesn't make much sense.

As I previously asked, have you heard of the term "jumping the shark," the point where a series starts to decline in quality? Then it should make more sense.

[Zephyr]

The part about insulting people was not aimed at you, just the general fandom who takes "canon" too seriously. You did say GT being canon would ruin the series though, which still doesn't make much sense.

As I previously asked, have you heard of the term "jumping the shark," the point where a series starts to decline in quality? Then it should make more sense.

Dragon Ball started Jumping the Shark when Future Trunks first showed up.

[Soppa Saia People]

The part about insulting people was not aimed at you, just the general fandom who takes "canon" too seriously. You did say GT being canon would ruin the series though, which still doesn't make much sense.

As I previously asked, have you heard of the term "jumping the shark," the point where a series starts to decline in quality? Then it should make more sense.

Just because something jumped the shark doesn't mean the old stuff isn't enjoyable, case in point being the Simpsons.

[Lord Beerus]

The part about insulting people was not aimed at you, just the general fandom who takes "canon" too seriously. You did say GT being canon would ruin the series though, which still doesn't make much sense.

As I previously asked, have you heard of the term "jumping the shark," the point where a series starts to decline in quality? Then it should make more sense.

Dragon Ball started Jumping the Shark when Future Trunks first showed up.

Dragon Ball jumped the shark way before that. I'd say the moment that is was revealed that Goku was an alien is when Dragon Ball changed forever. That's when Dragon Ball practically ended to any kind of homages to Journey Of The West or other wuxia tales and focused more on "who can power up or transform the quickest".

[Kuririn Fan]

The part about insulting people was not aimed at you, just the general fandom who takes "canon" too seriously. You did say GT being canon would ruin the series though, which still doesn't make much sense.

As I previously asked, have you heard of the term "jumping the shark," the point where a series starts to decline in quality? Then it should make more sense.

If you look at it that way, GT is only 12.5% of db+z+gt, so majority is still great and that can't be taken away.

[Kuririn Fan]

Dragon Ball jumped the shark way before that. I'd say the moment that is was revealed that Goku was an alien is when Dragon Ball changed forever. That's when Dragon Ball practically ended to any kind of homages to Journey Of The West or other wuxia tales and focused more on "who can power up or transform the quickest".

No, that began with Freeza, Saiyan arc was amazing and very og Dragon Ball-ish.

[Lord Beerus]

Dragon Ball jumped the shark way before that. I'd say the moment that is was revealed that Goku was an alien is when Dragon Ball changed forever. That's when Dragon Ball practically ended to any kind of homages to Journey Of The West or other wuxia tales and focused more on "who can power up or transform the quickest".

No, that began with Freeza, Saiyan arc was amazing and very og Dragon Ball-ish.

The Saiyan arc was responsible for introducing the dreaded "Battle Powers" and "multiplier forms/techniques". The Freeza arc just abused those concepts while also introducing the ridiculous "Zenkai" plot device/power up. At that stage, power levels inflated like crazy from the low thousands to the ten of millions. And it just kept escalating.

[Kuririn Fan]

Dragon Ball jumped the shark way before that. I'd say the moment that is was revealed that Goku was an alien is when Dragon Ball changed forever. That's when Dragon Ball practically ended to any kind of homages to Journey Of The West or other wuxia tales and focused more on "who can power up or transform the quickest".

No, that began with Freeza, Saiyan arc was amazing and very og Dragon Ball-ish.

The Saiyan arc was responsible for introducing the dreaded "Battle Powers" and "multiplier forms/techniques". The Freeza arc just abused those concepts while also introducing the ridiculous "Zenkai" plot device/power up. At that stage, power levels inflated like crazy from the low thousands to the ten of millions. And it just kept escalating.

Yes, but teamwork and strategy were still very important and decisive.

[Lord Beerus]

Yes, but teamwork and strategy were still very important and decisive.

I won't deny that, but the Saiyan arc was responsible for introducing several tropes that the franchise would later use and abuse like nothing before. It's still my favourite arc in all of Dragon Ball.

[Luke Groundwalker]

"Official Product" and "Canon" don't mean the same thing. Of course, "Canon" as it relates to Dragonball doesn't mean anything in the first place. "Canon" was originally used by the Catholic Church to establish which texts were inspired by the Holy Spirit and which were not. Something you kind of had to know. But what even is the point of selecting parts of a comic book/cartoon and calling them "canon"? As much a I dislike GT, no one is literally going to Hell for supporting it.

Well let's look at the definition of canon according to Google:

can·on1
ˈkanən/
noun
1.
a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged.
"the appointment violated the canons of fair play and equal opportunity"
synonyms: principle, rule, law, tenet, precept; More
2.
a collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine.
"the formation of the biblical canon"

(our usage bolded)

In this very context, Dragonball GT is just as valid as any other Dragonball product out there, since everyone involved in the development of the franchise accept and treat Dragonball GT as a genuine product. There has never been comments made that specifically outlined what is "canon" or what isn't by any means, with the closest to a canonical compilation is the various guidebooks the series has which continue to acknowledge Dragonball GT as being part of the franchise officially. Even Dragonball GT received it's own series of guidebooks as well.

That isn't to say the claim of Dragonball GT is a "strong" one as there's no real evidence to suggest there's even such a thing as a Dragonball canon. But it's definitely stronger than the massive amount of fans that tout the claim that Dragonball GT is the uncanonical bastard child of the series because of things Toriyama never said. Why? Because TOEI, Bird Studio, Shueisha, and even Toriyama himself actively promote, develop, and sell the Dragonball GT brand.

[Zephyr]

Dragon Ball jumped the shark way before that. I'd say the moment that is was revealed that Goku was an alien is when Dragon Ball changed forever. That's when Dragon Ball practically ended to any kind of homages to Journey Of The West or other wuxia tales and focused more on "who can power up or transform the quickest".

I think that the Saiyan and Namek arcs are both pretty solid (though of course not perfect), in spite of this. I think Cell and Buu are when Toriyama's writing really begins to get more difficult to make sense out of, and the quality begins to suffer. Ensemble cast was still in full effect for a great deal of the Saiyan arc, Vegeta is at his absolute finest on Namek, and the Freeza arc is just a really solid end point.

Yes, but teamwork and strategy were still very important and decisive.

I won't deny that, but the Saiyan arc was responsible for introducing several tropes that the franchise would later use and abuse like nothing before. It's still my favourite arc in all of Dragon Ball.

And the Red Ribbon Army arc introduced Tao Pai Pai, whose fight with Goku became rehashed into oblivion.

Just because an arc is the first one to do something that was later poorly abused, it does not follow that said first arc poorly abused it as well.

[Cetra]

"Official Product" and "Canon" don't mean the same thing. Of course, "Canon" as it relates to Dragonball doesn't mean anything in the first place. "Canon" was originally used by the Catholic Church to establish which texts were inspired by the Holy Spirit and which were not. Something you kind of had to know. But what even is the point of selecting parts of a comic book/cartoon and calling them "canon"? As much a I dislike GT, no one is literally going to Hell for supporting it.

Well let's look at the definition of canon according to Google:

can·on1
ˈkanən/
noun
1.
a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged.
"the appointment violated the canons of fair play and equal opportunity"
synonyms: principle, rule, law, tenet, precept; More
2.
a collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine.
"the formation of the biblical canon"

(our usage bolded)

In this very context, Dragonball GT is just as valid as any other Dragonball product out there, since everyone involved in the development of the franchise accept and treat Dragonball GT as a genuine product. There has never been comments made that specifically outlined what is "canon" or what isn't by any means, with the closest to a canonical compilation is the various guidebooks the series has which continue to acknowledge Dragonball GT as being part of the franchise officially. Even Dragonball GT received it's own series of guidebooks as well.

That isn't to say the claim of Dragonball GT is a "strong" one as there's no real evidence to suggest there's even such a thing as a Dragonball canon. But it's definitely stronger than the massive amount of fans that tout the claim that Dragonball GT is the uncanonical bastard child of the series because of things Toriyama never said. Why? Because TOEI, Bird Studio, Shueisha, and even Toriyama himself actively promote, develop, and sell the Dragonball GT brand.

As mentioned, no one with some sanity claims it is no part of the franchise. But it has been established in fictional stuff that the question about "canonicity" is what is actually counted in a certain relation.

[Mewzard]

Maybe the use of Continuity over Canon would make things less confusing as to what people mean (though humans are creatures of habit, so that's unlikely to change).