The new arc will (may?) settle an old debate: Tenshinhan vs. Kuririn

[DBZ Macky]

2 to 3 months. Someone will be right.

Undoubtedly. In the meantime, let's try not to get banned?
Surely you would love to throw in a snarky "See, told ya!" here when Tenshinhan proves his superiority.
I sure would love to when Kuririn shows otherwise.

[Adrian Malacoda]

Re. "Gohan is considered an Earthling"

As far as I'm aware, he isn't. He's classified with the Saiyans, even though logically he's just as much Earthling as Saiyan. If you're referring to Daizenshuu #4 here... that's not Goku's son Gohan, but rather the elder ("Grandpa") Gohan.

The bit about Tenshinhan's alien heritage (underneath the "Earthlings" category) specifically points out that he is a descendant of descendants of aliens, making him quite unlike the half Saiyans who are directly descendant from aliens.

A descendent of aliens who uses unique techniques.
Tenshinhan uses techniques that are impossible to think of being those of an Earthling, such as growing arms from his back or splitting into four people. It's a small wonder then that Tenshinhan is a descendent of the Three-Eyed people, themselves the posterity of aliens, and that he has a unique physical composition as a throwback to his ancestors.

Despite this, he is still grouped under the Earthlings section and mentioned as one of the Earthlings' martial artists alongside Kuririn, Mr. Satan, etc. There are no statements referring to Kuririn as strongest "pure" Earthling, only strongest Earthling. There is in fact no distinction of this sort made in or out of universe. The Saiyan halfings and cyborgs are different enough from regular Earthlings to be classified differently; Tenshinhan is not.

[TheZFighter]

This has always been a pretty hot topic amongst those who are interested in the non-Saiyan characters in this story, and I for one would love to see it resolved.

Personally, and I must stress this is merely my personal preference, I sincerely hope that Tien does turn out to be the stronger of the two, as I think it would be fair reward for his dedication to a lifetime of training. Being realistic though, I know Krillin is a pretty popular character because he is Goku's little sidekick and is funny at times, so I'm not holding out much hope for Tien. We can dream though...

[DragonBallFoodie]

http://www.cbr.com/dragon-ball-z-15-thi ... t-krillin/

According to the link above, Toriyama has said that Krillin is the strongest human alive.

[VegettoEX]

The relevant quote from that article (with its translation unattributed) has already been noted and discussed with the original source material linked here on this very website.

[JulianStyles]

2 to 3 months. Someone will be right.

No, because in 3 months, even if Tenshinhan is said to be stronger than Kuririn then you can make the argument that he only just surpassed Kuririn at that time of the arc meaning he was still weaker than Kuririn at Freeza arc - RoF.

No it'll prove he always was because Tien has done more since the Android Arc. Just Krillin fans don't accept it because any of the feats haven't been strictly combat base. Or they can throw excuses like in ROF when Tien is clearly the better fighter. But they can say it's Freeza's soilders. Now we have both going one on one tournament style with opponents.

Also dialogues can prove it. In recruiting process. Krillin could say let's get Tien to he's stronger than me. Because that seems what it'll take to convince you people who keep using the strongest Earthling statement. When many outlets have Tien as a Decendant of Aliens. And the term Earthling is very broad. Garlic Jr is a Earthling for Christ sakes.

[Akyon]

I really hope this arc finishes this debate off for good. But I sure as hell doubt it can.

If Tien fights an opponent he can't beat, then Krillin fights said opponent and wins, the excuse of Tien softened him up and the opponent wasn't at full power like he was against Tien will be used to discredit Krillin.

Likewise; similar scenario, other way around with Krillin fighting an opponent, losing and Tien takes over and wins. Opponent not at full power, Tien is discredited.

Basically it'll never get resolved unless they fight one another and we aren't going to see that. Ever probably. The two barely interact with one another as it is let alone fight one another.

Then there's the argument about the feats;
Tien's Kikoho is literally designed to expell all his ki and life force all at once and managed to push Cell back with it doing absolutely no damage.
Krillin was the only character to do any semi-permanant damage to Frieza when he lopped his tail off because the Kienzan is literally designed to slice through things.

These two moves are designed to do two totally different things. No way Tien would have scratched Frieza and no way Krillin could knock back Cell.

Then there's the training argument;
Krillin doesn't train regularly anymore...but when he DOES occasionally train he's sparring against his wife who is considerably stronger than him. Better gains.
Tien trains all the time...but he trains against the weakest Z fighter in Chiaoutzu. Considerably lower gains.

So is it better to train all the time against an opponent you can easily crush in a fight or to occasionally train against someone who could easily crush you? That's the question.

[rereboy]

Sure we don't know who's stronger between them...

Yes... yes, we do.

Because we've been plainly told who the strongest Earthling is, over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

In the actual work we've been told once. On an indirect line about the two. With that line happening, in universe, 7 years before the actual end of the manga, during which, presumably, Krillin kept not training and Tenshinhan kept training.

Besides the actual work, we have some guides and such that simply repeat the meaning of the line and Toriyama echoing it a few times.

Now, given the existence of that line and the apparent will of the author, I fully admit that Krillin is stronger... But in no factual circumstance in the manga, besides that line, is Krillin treated (by the characters or by the plot) as stronger than Tenshinhan. And this is, at the very least, confusing, because the way the characters are handled after Namek and the interventions they have after Namek seem to favor Tenshinhan power-wise if we were to interpret from that, and coupled with the fact that Tenshinhan seemed to always have been stronger than Krillin before Namek, the line, despite being clear, seems to go against the interpretative flow of the manga. In other words, without that line, I HIGHLY doubt the majority would interpret Krillin as stronger. In fact, I'm pretty sure the vast majority would interpret Tenshinhan as stronger. And this is something that, unfortunately, I don't recall any other fan that recognizes Krillin as stronger, admit...

[RandomGuy96]

Everyone knows that the best way to get stronger is to give a midget Indian burns all day.

[DBZ Macky]

I don't recall any other fan that recognizes Krillin as stronger, admit...

But we do! I posted how I think that it's not their fault for more casual fans to assume Tenshinhan is stronger, since he oozes of confidence as compared to his midget friend who isn't aware of his own strength. I think Kaboom made a brilliant post before about how Tenshinhan feels stronger than Kuririn.
But, as he said, "feel" =/= fact.

[Helios518]

2 to 3 months. Someone will be right.

No, because in 3 months, even if Tenshinhan is said to be stronger than Kuririn then you can make the argument that he only just surpassed Kuririn at that time of the arc meaning he was still weaker than Kuririn at Freeza arc - RoF.

No it'll prove he always was because Tien has done more since the Android Arc. Just Krillin fans don't accept it because any of the feats haven't been strictly combat base. Or they can throw excuses like in ROF when Tien is clearly the better fighter. But they can say it's Freeza's soilders. Now we have both going one on one tournament style with opponents.

Also dialogues can prove it. In recruiting process. Krillin could say let's get Tien to he's stronger than me. Because that seems what it'll take to convince you people who keep using the strongest Earthling statement. When many outlets have Tien as a Decendant of Aliens. And the term Earthling is very broad. Garlic Jr is a Earthling for Christ sakes.

Not all characters have the same level of confidence, Tenshinhan clearly has more confidence than Kuririn.

You could still argue that even if Tenshinan suddenly said to be stronger than Kuririn, That he only just got stronger than him at that arc and wasn't stronger in Z. The only statement that would actually decide (change the argument) it is if Kuririn (or someone else) said Tenshinhan has always been stronger (not better at fighting) than him.

[JulianStyles]

Sure we don't know who's stronger between them...

Yes... yes, we do.

Because we've been plainly told who the strongest Earthling is, over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

In the actual work we've been told once. On an indirect line about the two. With that line happening, in universe, 7 years before the actual end of the manga, during which, presumably, Krillin kept not training and Tenshinhan kept training.

Besides the actual work, we have some guides and such that simply repeat the meaning of the line and Toriyama echoing it a few times.

Now, given the existence of that line and the apparent will of the author, I fully admit that Krillin is stronger... But in no factual circumstance in the manga, besides that line, is Krillin treated (by the characters or by the plot) as stronger than Tenshinhan. And this is, at the very least, confusing, because the way the characters are handled after Namek and the interventions they have after Namek seem to favor Tenshinhan power-wise if we were to interpret from that, and coupled with the fact that Tenshinhan seemed to always have been stronger than Krillin before Namek, the line, despite being clear, seems to go against the interpretative flow of the manga. In other words, without that line, I HIGHLY doubt the majority would interpret Krillin as stronger. In fact, I'm pretty sure the vast majority would interpret Tenshinhan as stronger. And this is something that, unfortunately, I don't recall any other fan that recognizes Krillin as stronger, admit...

Man I respect what you said so much. I don't even mind you feel Krillin is stronger. But you have the smarts to see the perspective of how people see Tien is. Because watching the series you would not determine its Krillin. I love it.

[JulianStyles]

I really hope this arc finishes this debate off for good. But I sure as hell doubt it can.

If Tien fights an opponent he can't beat, then Krillin fights said opponent and wins, the excuse of Tien softened him up and the opponent wasn't at full power like he was against Tien will be used to discredit Krillin.

Likewise; similar scenario, other way around with Krillin fighting an opponent, losing and Tien takes over and wins. Opponent not at full power, Tien is discredited.

Basically it'll never get resolved unless they fight one another and we aren't going to see that. Ever probably. The two barely interact with one another as it is let alone fight one another.

Then there's the argument about the feats;
Tien's Kikoho is literally designed to expell all his ki and life force all at once and managed to push Cell back with it doing absolutely no damage.
Krillin was the only character to do any semi-permanant damage to Frieza when he lopped his tail off because the Kienzan is literally designed to slice through things.

These two moves are designed to do two totally different things. No way Tien would have scratched Frieza and no way Krillin could knock back Cell.

Then there's the training argument;
Krillin doesn't train regularly anymore...but when he DOES occasionally train he's sparring against his wife who is considerably stronger than him. Better gains.
Tien trains all the time...but he trains against the weakest Z fighter in Chiaoutzu. Considerably lower gains.

So is it better to train all the time against an opponent you can easily crush in a fight or to occasionally train against someone who could easily crush you? That's the question.

I think this tournament will be more traditional tournament style. So every fighter will be fresh going into each fight. So if one loses and the other beats the same opponent. It'll be at full strength.

[JulianStyles]

I don't recall any other fan that recognizes Krillin as stronger, admit...

But we do! I posted how I think that it's not their fault for more casual fans to assume Tenshinhan is stronger, since he oozes of confidence as compared to his midget friend who isn't aware of his own strength. I think Kaboom made a brilliant post before about how Tenshinhan feels stronger than Kuririn.
But, as he said, "feel" =/= fact.

Love how your signature is a anti Tien showing. I'll be looking for you when this arc comes around.

Also ask yourself this. If you think Krillin is stronger. How much stronger that Tien is he? Because it can't be that much. So then you ask yourself who would win in a fight. The lazy,insecure,non dedicated, hesitant coward man. Or the dedicated to martial arts,confident, braver one?

[rereboy]

I don't recall any other fan that recognizes Krillin as stronger, admit...

But we do! I posted how I think that it's not their fault for more casual fans to assume Tenshinhan is stronger, since he oozes of confidence as compared to his midget friend who isn't aware of his own strength. I think Kaboom made a brilliant post before about how Tenshinhan feels stronger than Kuririn.
But, as he said, "feel" =/= fact.

It's not a matter of being casual. I'm the very opposite of casual when it comes to Dragon Ball and, no matter how many times I read the manga (which I have done many times), without that line, the logical interpretation is always that Tenshinhan is stronger. But, since the line, although indirect, ends up being clear, it can't be disregarded, and thus we have to admit that Krillin is stronger (at least at that moment in time), even though it goes against a consistent and otherwise unbroken interpretation flow that exists throughout the entire manga.

What I mentioned is simply that I don't recall seeing other fans that recognize Krillin as stronger sharing this viewpoint. I'm sure they exist but I don't think they are very common since I don't recall them, which is unfortunate, imo.

Imo, this whole issue is a flaw within the manga. Krillin should have felt stronger than Tenshinhan is more than just a throwaway, indirect line.

[Gog]

I don't recall any other fan that recognizes Krillin as stronger, admit...

But we do! I posted how I think that it's not their fault for more casual fans to assume Tenshinhan is stronger, since he oozes of confidence as compared to his midget friend who isn't aware of his own strength. I think Kaboom made a brilliant post before about how Tenshinhan feels stronger than Kuririn.
But, as he said, "feel" =/= fact.

Love how your signature is a anti Tien showing. I'll be looking for you when this arc comes around.

Also ask yourself this. If you think Krillin is stronger. How much stronger that Tien is he? Because it can't be that much. So then you ask yourself who would win in a fight. The lazy,insecure,non dedicated, hesitant coward man. Or the dedicated to martial arts,confident, braver one?

Krillins stronger get over it, god has admitted it, however whats to say that Tien still won't beat Krillin due to his superior skill and technique?

[Akyon]

Actually just one counter point to the Tien feeling stronger argument; The Nappa fight.

We know at this point Tenshinhan is undeniably stronger than Krillin, but the only good attack he gets off(a surprise attack at that) only blows Nappa's armour apart otherwise Nappa kicks him around greatly. Krillin is weaker but he manages to send Nappa flying at least twice; once with a smash to the back of the skull when Nappa was going for Tien, and once from a kick and an elbow attack to save Gohan from getting killed.

This is the only time I can think of that the two humans fought the exact same opponent. Krillin looks considerably better in this battle even though we know for a fact he isn't stronger than Tenshinhan at this moment in time.

With Krillin beginning to consider getting back into training and Tien not doing half as well as he could be due to using Chiaoutzu as a training partner(let's be real Chiaoutzu is the most useless fighter in the show including characters that are weaker than him), I really hope these two supposed friends just team up and use each other as sparring partners the way Goku and Vegeta do or Gohan and Piccolo do.
In doing so that might help shed some light on the true answer to this debate.

[emperior]

While Krillin clearly surpassed Tenshinan when he was on Namek, Tenshinan had time to catch up to Krillin during the 3 years of training for the cyborgs and also trained with King Kai while dead. He was able to hold down Semi-Perfect Cell and also caught Gotenks Buu by surprise. He also never stopped training while Krillin retired after Cell's death (and grew up his hair. When he does it means he no longer fights)

I think by now it shouldn't be hard to figure out Tenshinan SHOULD be stronger than Krillin considering few years of not training greatly hindered Gohan's power I can't see why the same shouldn't have happened to Krillin.
It's also true though that, unlike Tenshinan, Krillin watched a lot of shit happening on Namek, also watched Cell vs Vegeta and some of Cell vs Trunks and also attacked Perfect Cell and survived his attack (Satan too survived one so it could be meaningless) he also saw Majin Buu vs Majin Vegeta and if we go by Roshi's words in Super's RoF arc, watching incredible fighters fight counts as training.

I think Tenshinan and Krillin MIGHT be on par, but in my opinion Tenshinan should be stronger. We will see next arc though!

[VegettoEX]

Love how your signature is a anti Tien showing. I'll be looking for you when this arc comes around.

I don't understand the point of your constant pro-Kuririn-agenda-witch-hunt when your entire agenda is transparent from the start. Not exactly the best showing if you're trying to convince people of something.

[JulianStyles]

I don't recall any other fan that recognizes Krillin as stronger, admit...

But we do! I posted how I think that it's not their fault for more casual fans to assume Tenshinhan is stronger, since he oozes of confidence as compared to his midget friend who isn't aware of his own strength. I think Kaboom made a brilliant post before about how Tenshinhan feels stronger than Kuririn.
But, as he said, "feel" =/= fact.

It's not a matter of being casual. I'm the very opposite of casual when it comes to Dragon Ball and, no matter how many times I read the manga (which I have done many times), without that line, the logical interpretation is always that Tenshinhan is stronger. But, since the line, although indirect, ends up being clear, it can't be disregarded, and thus we have to admit that Krillin is stronger (at least at that moment in time), even though it goes against a consistent and otherwise unbroken interpretation flow that exists throughout the entire manga.

What I mentioned is simply that I don't recall seeing other fans that recognize Krillin as stronger sharing this viewpoint. I'm sure they exist but I don't think they are very common since I don't recall them, which is unfortunate, imo.

Imo, this whole issue is a flaw within the manga. Krillin should have felt stronger than Tenshinhan is more than just a throwaway, indirect line.

Here's something to think about. If the statement conflicts with evidence. Then the statement in its literal form must have a different meaning. The fact that Tien in many sources is said to be a Decendant of Aliens, the fact Akira Toriyama didn't say Tien was human when asked straight up. The fact that the Daizenshuu list Gohan and even Piccolo as Earthling. The fact that 17 and 18 are Earthlings. Then we need to say what exactly is meant by that statement. Because to me it means pure human. When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains however improbable must be the truth.