Is there anyone that stopped or decide not to watch Super?

[ABED]

And my limit was that they make Goku, who's a grandfather, don't have the common sense that a pregnancy for a woman at Bulma's age is dangerous.

That's not common sense. Bulma's in her 40s around the time of Super, I think.

[Ki Breaker]

Have I ever replied to this?

Super has lost me, one week without super got me to realize it's not worth the time..
It's frankly a boring anime, not bad just way too boring for me to be interested again after I learnt to go on without it..
My forum activity has reduced as a result as well..

I might still continue to watch it for some time till it completely collapses but it's not getting the level of attention or excitement it used to

[King-K9]

I stopped after last week's episode. I just couldn't take it anymore.

-2 shitty movie remakes

Characters

-Every character being irrelevant besides Goku and Vegeta (and Trunks for one arc)
-Piccolo being demoted to nothing more than a joke
-Gohan being a bitch for 4 arcs
-Chichi thinking that studying is more important than saving the world
- Every other character being non existent
-Power scaling being atrocious (Trunks having plot armor)
-All of the Universe 6 fighters being boring besides Cabba
-Vegeta regressing from his character development in the Buu Saga
-EVERYTHING ABOUT GOKU!

Retcons

-Changing they way Beerus acted in battle of gods
-Trunks's hair
- Super saiyan blue having stamina issues
- Super saiyan God not being absorbed in the manga
-Vegito having a time limit (Seriously, fuck the writers of Super for that)
-Changing the way time travel works in the Manga

I honestly should have dropped this show midway through the ROF arc.

[NintendoBlaze53]

I stopped after last week's episode. I just couldn't take it anymore.
-Every character being irrelevant besides Goku and Vegeta (and Trunks for one arc)
-Piccolo being demoted to nothing more than a joke
-Gohan being a bitch
-Chichi thinking that studying is more important than saving the world
- Every other character being non existent
-Power scaling being atrocious (Trunks having plot armor)

All these things happened in DBZ, and especially so in the Buu Arc. Super is just continuing the trend.

-Vegeta regressing from his character development in the Buu Saga

Could you explain this more? Cause I think Vegeta showing how much he cares for Bulma and Trunks is continuing his character development. Hell he's barely shown any interest in defeating Goku. How has he regressed back to pre-Buu Saga?

Retcons
-Changing they way Beerus acted in battle of gods
-Trunks's hair
- Super saiyan blue having stamina issues
- Super saiyan God not being absorbed in the manga
-Vegito having a time limit (Seriously, fuck the writers of Super for that)

NONE of these are retcons. A retcon is a plot point or development that directly contradicts prior information. Beerus being changed lasted only 1 arc and was an adaption change. Trunks's hair is not a plot point and I will never understand how people complain about it. Bulma's hair has been wrong since the beginning of the anime and people don't harp on that. It was never stated Blue DIDN'T have stamina issues, this was new information that was expanding, not contradicting. Manga is different to anime completely for Super. Vegetto not having a time limit does contradict, but the reason given is good enough. Old Kai had only seen Potara used once and it was permanent for him, he only said what he knew back in the Buu Arc. Super just expanded on what he said.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I still haven't stopped, but I'm seriously thinking about taking a long break, then maybe just following along with the dub. I find myself with less and less time nowadays, and since reading the subtitles increasingly gives me headaches, combined with the fact that I still can't muster much interest in the narrative itself... I don't know, I just don't care enough anymore. It's not like a burnout or anything, I still have plenty of interest in old material, but the new stuff just doesn't do it for me. Maybe I'll watch by arc or binge the home release once it starts, something like that.

[Gaffer Tape]

NONE of these are retcons. A retcon is a plot point or development that directly contradicts prior information.

This is not correct. A retcon is simply short for "retroactive continuity." It is any change that retroactively affects elements from earlier in the story. For example: Goku is rewritten to be an alien. Prior to Raditz, Goku was never written as an alien. From the moment Raditz shows up, we are to accept that, from now on, Goku has always been an alien. This is not simply a new addition to Goku, like, say, Super Saiyan. It is a new addition to Goku that alters who he is in every piece of the story prior to this moment. That is retroactive continuity. The only contradiction is an out-of-universe one: we are told to accept the lie that it has always been this way. But in-universe, there is nothing that explicitly contradicts the idea that Goku could have been an alien all this time.

[Bansho64]

I haven't watched a full episode in a long time tbh. I get bored usually. I ain't a big fan tbh. I read the manga instead, since I like it a lot more than the anime. I usually just read summaries for the anime. Tbh, I've probably read more summaries of the show than I have actually watching it. Even when I tried watching the whole thing up to the Trunks arc awhile back, I usually got bored and pulled out my phone or wanted to watch something else.

[Metalwario64]

Could you explain this more? Cause I think Vegeta showing how much he cares for Bulma and Trunks is continuing his character development. Hell he's barely shown any interest in defeating Goku. How has he regressed back to pre-Buu Saga?

I actually think Vegeta's the best part of Super. At first he seemed to have regressed, with obsessing over Kakarrot once more, but as time has gone on, he's started progressing and has chilled out a decent amount. His caring about Bulma's current pregnancy was great.

It's a shame that Goku has had his negative traits continuously exaggerated as the series progressed. I've been rewatching the BoG arc with my father in Japanese, and Goku feels much more in line with Z Goku, and he even cares about Beerus destroying the world. Current Super Goku probably couldn't care less as long as he can fight other strong dudes in the universe.

That makes me think that all of this was a direct result of Toriyama's "disappointment" with Super. I believe he saw Goku having an ounce of heroism as a huge flaw (even though it didn't compare to what Toei had done 2 decades ago with the older films), and wanted them to greatly exaggerate his selfishness and stupidity. It's far removed even from how Toriyama wrote the character. I remember being annoyed with some other user a few years ago who suggested that if Earth was destroyed, that Goku would be upset at first, but would quickly move on because he only really cares about fighting. I definitely disagree with that in the original series. He does selfish things, and fighting is his favorite thing to do, but he also does genuinely care about his friends and family. I mean, he sacrificed his life for them in the Cell arc, and even told Gohan to tell Chi-Chi that he was sorry for being so selfish. Unfortunately, I agree with that assessment in regards to Super's portrayal of Goku.

Even though he never goes out of his way to help people, he doesn't like to see them killed or hurt (just look at his reaction to Vegeta killing innocents at the tournament). In Super, if he saw someone doing that he'd probably grin and start squealing about how he's so excited to fight a strong opponent who's willing to go all out. In the Buu arc, a big thing early on was that he wanted the next generation of kids to be able to take care of the world, and only stepped in after they messed everything up. In Super, he would never have done that because the only thing on his mind is fighting. He was always very flawed, which was part of his appeal. As of late in Super, I can't see a single appealing thing about him.

[Soppa Saia People]

I already responded to this, but I haven't watch a full episode since 2015. I did watch a couple reviews and read the episode threads, so there's that /:

[DHM211]

I stopped watching around episode 3, binge watched episodes 28 - 38, and have been watching it on a weekly basis since.

[MozillaVulpix]

Nope. Even if I wanted to, I basically can't at this point, because I've become known for reviewing the episodes week-by-week. I think that has helped me get motivated to watch the episodes as soon as possible. Then again, I've never really gotten to a point where I was tempted to stop watching. Maybe some of the slice-of-life episodes about characters I didn't really care about, but that's about it.

The movie retelling were at least a little bit interesting because back when they were being aired, we didn't know if they were going to change anything. I remember there were a few people who thought that when they got to the retelling of RF, they were going to 'fix' the story entirely, which...didn't really end up happening at all. Unless you're a fan of Tagoma and Ginyu.

[mfwlegend3]

Even if I wanted to, I basically can't at this point, because I've become known for reviewing the episodes week-by-week.

Just because you're known for reviewing episodes, it doesn't mean you're obligated to. Just look at Hail Zeon.

[rereboy]

NONE of these are retcons. A retcon is a plot point or development that directly contradicts prior information.

This is not correct. A retcon is simply short for "retroactive continuity." It is any change that retroactively affects elements from earlier in the story. For example: Goku is rewritten to be an alien. Prior to Raditz, Goku was never written as an alien. From the moment Raditz shows up, we are to accept that, from now on, Goku has always been an alien.

I don't agree. Reveals are not retcons. Just because we only find out important stuff about a character long after the start of the series, it doesn't automatically mean it's a retcon. Otherwise, any big and important reveal would be a retcon. A retcon has to implicitly mean a contradiction regarding what came before. Goku's alien nature doesn't contradict anything that came before and is a possibility that even the characters wonder about him in the very first arc of Dragon Ball. The author having decided to do or include that reveal from the start or not is irrelevant if there is no contradiction.

[KorgDTR2000]

I have zero interest in it.

To me, Dragon Ball is the original 42 volumes of the manga. I enjoy some of the movies, and some of the filler, but the further away from those 42 volumes it drifts the less interest I have.

[Gaffer Tape]

I don't agree. Reveals are not retcons. Just because we only find out important stuff about a character long after the start of the series, it doesn't automatically mean it's a retcon. Otherwise, any big and important reveal would be a retcon. A retcon has to implicitly mean a contradiction regarding what came before. Goku's alien nature doesn't contradict anything that came before and is a possibility that even the characters wonder about him in the very first arc of Dragon Ball. The author having decided to do or include that reveal from the start or not is irrelevant if there is no contradiction.

Quite frankly, it doesn't matter if you agree or not. That's what the word means. I'm sorry to be so blunt because I'm all about debating opinions, but I can't really debate a fact. But you're right in saying reveals are not retcons. A true reveal from a creative standpoint would be if Toriyama had always known that Goku was an alien and was simply holding that information back. And that would not be a retcon. But Toriyama actually enacted a change in the story. That is a big difference. I don't know why everyone's so hung up on in-story contradictions. I mean, we already have a word for that. It's called a plot hole. And we also have a word for retroactive continuity additions. That's called a retcon. There is absolutely nothing in the word retcon that implies it has anything to do with contradictions, so it flummoxes me why people want to force that in there.

[ABED]

Quite frankly, it doesn't matter if you agree or not. That's what the word means. I'm sorry to be so blunt because I'm all about debating opinions, but I can't really debate a fact. But you're right in saying reveals are not retcons. A true reveal from a creative standpoint would be if Toriyama had always known that Goku was an alien and was simply holding that information back. And that would not be a retcon. But Toriyama actually enacted a change in the story. That is a big difference. I don't know why everyone's so hung up on in-story contradictions. I mean, we already have a word for that. It's called a plot hole. And we also have a word for retroactive continuity additions. That's called a retcon. There is absolutely nothing in the word retcon that implies it has anything to do with contradictions, so it flummoxes me why people want to force that in there.

But that's not a fact, and there's no real difference if a writer always knew the reveal or if he didn't. As long as it works in the story and doesn't contradict anything, then it's not a retcon. What's fundamentally different in story if Toriyama always knew Goku was an alien than if he made it up years down the road? There is none. A reveal that was created later is no less true than if one had been in the writer's head since the beginning. The reason retcon has a reason to exist is because there's a fundamental difference between a plot hole and saying something in-story has always been there even though the element was added after the fact. For instance, when Black Canary was created, there was just one, but later on (I believe it's when DC brought back the JSA into more modern continuity) they said the current Black Canary was the Golden Age BC's daughter.

[sintzu]

Quite frankly, it doesn't matter if you agree or not. That's what the word means. I'm sorry to be so blunt because I'm all about debating opinions, but I can't really debate a fact. But you're right in saying reveals are not retcons. A true reveal from a creative standpoint would be if Toriyama had always known that Goku was an alien and was simply holding that information back. And that would not be a retcon. But Toriyama actually enacted a change in the story. That is a big difference. I don't know why everyone's so hung up on in-story contradictions. I mean, we already have a word for that. It's called a plot hole. And we also have a word for retroactive continuity additions. That's called a retcon. There is absolutely nothing in the word retcon that implies it has anything to do with contradictions, so it flummoxes me why people want to force that in there.

But that's not a fact, and there's no real difference if a writer always knew the reveal or if he didn't. As long as it works in the story and doesn't contradict anything, then it's not a retcon. What's fundamentally different in story if Toriyama always knew Goku was an alien than if he made it up years down the road? There is none. A reveal that was created later is no less true than if one had been in the writer's head since the beginning. The reason retcon has a reason to exist is because there's a fundamental difference between a plot hole and saying something in-story has always been there even though the element was added after the fact. For instance, when Black Canary was created, there was just one, but later on (I believe it's when DC brought back the JSA into more modern continuity) they said the current Black Canary was the Golden Age BC's daughter.

I agree with you on this, regardless of something being planned or not, as long as it works within the contex of the story then it's not a retcon or a plot hole, it's simply story development. One Piece is 800+ chapters long, does that mean that everything that wasn't planned form day 1 is a retcon ? of course ot. no one will ever be able to plan that far ahead. there will always be changes made to that kind of story at some point while it's being written.

After watching Z then going back to DB, I always thought for years that the whole thing was always planned out from the start which shows how good of a story teller he is. Usually when someone writes like that you can tell they're just making it up as they go along but I never thought that once while watching the original story.

Goku's alien nature doesn't contradict anything that came before and is a possibility that even the characters wonder about him in the very first arc of Dragon Ball.

In the RRA arc the android that Goku fought at muscle tower scanned him and it said he was an alien. It was a joke of course but it worked out in the end.

[rereboy]

Quite frankly, it doesn't matter if you agree or not. That's what the word means. I'm sorry to be so blunt because I'm all about debating opinions, but I can't really debate a fact.

We weren't discussing if the Earth is round, you know?

There is an overlap in meaning regarding the terms "retcon" and "reveal", and that overlap, the boundaries between the terms, can absolutely be discussed/debated.

You even chose to use the term "true reveal" instead of just "reveal" because you realize that a retcon acts functionally as a reveal when it doesn't contradict anything that came before.

The difference between my position and yours is simply that you identify the intent of the author from the start of the series as the defining characteristic to call it either a "reveal" or a "retcon", while I prefer to identify whether or not it contradicts anything that came before, because, if it doesn't, the new information is not functionally different from a "reveal", and their difference, in that case, is basically theoretical instead of practical.

Thus, imo, the term is much better put to use regarding contradictions originated by the new information, and the term "plothole" doesn't serve the same purpose because, while it can also refer to contradictions (another overlap), it can also refer just to unexplained or improperly explained stuff in the series.

Finally, I'm not agaisnt your position and I'm not saying that you are wrong, obviously. I'm simply stating my opinion. However, to be blunt as you were, I do believe you are incorrect in talking about this like it's hard facts like the Earth being round. Language is fluid, dependent on interpretation, ever evolving as time goes by, and the overlaps in meaning guarantee that it's not that easy to determine the boundaries between terms.

[Gaffer Tape]

But that's not a fact, and there's no real difference if a writer always knew the reveal or if he didn't. As long as it works in the story and doesn't contradict anything, then it's not a retcon. What's fundamentally different in story if Toriyama always knew Goku was an alien than if he made it up years down the road? There is none. A reveal that was created later is no less true than if one had been in the writer's head since the beginning.

I agree with you on this, regardless of something being planned or not, as long as it works within the contex of the story then it's not a retcon or a plot hole, it's simply story development. One Piece is 800+ chapters long, does that mean that everything that wasn't planned form day 1 is a retcon ? of course ot. no one will ever be able to plan that far ahead. there will always be changes made to that kind of story at some point while it's being written.

After watching Z then going back to DB, I always thought for years that the whole thing was always planned out from the start which shows how good of a story teller he is. Usually when someone writes like that you can tell they're just making it up as they go along but I never thought that once while watching the original story.

See, it's stuff like this that really makes me shake my head. And I realize the problem: people keep taking the term "retcon" as if it is some kind of an insult or value judgment. It's not. Everyone gets defensive as if I just said, "Goku becoming an alien is bad writing," or, "It doesn't make any sense." All it means is that something was changed. It was. You can't deny that. Toriyama is the first to admit he was not writing Goku as an alien prior to that point in time. It doesn't matter if there's no contradiction in the story. It's a change. It changes the way Toriyama writes the character. It changes the way Toriyama perceives the character. It changes the very real fact that Goku is not an alien in any of those stories prior to Raditz. He's not. He never will be. We just pretend to believe he was. That's all a retcon is. I don't see what the big deal about this is or why people seem so intent on acting like it's some kind of mistake or something that has to be defended against. Storytelling evolves. That's a good thing. And we have a term readily available to describe when that happens. Don't try to muddy the issue by acting like it's something to be offended by.

You even chose to use the term "true reveal" instead of just "reveal" because you realize that a retcon acts functionally as a reveal when it doesn't contradict anything that came before.

No. I used the term "true reveal" because I wanted to distinguish between the out-of-universe and the in-universe. Because out-of-universe a retcon is ALWAYS a contradiction. As I said, Goku in the Red Ribbon Arc is not an alien. He wasn't in 1986. He isn't now. Nothing about that story has been altered. However, a later story introduces the plot point that he's always been an alien. That retroactively affects the fact that he is not an alien in those stories. That is a contradiction. It takes a fact and changes it. However, in-universe, through a lucky break, it does not directly contradict any information already presented in the story. Therefore, it makes it easier to accept this change as having always been a part of the universe.

In this case, I felt "reveal" was going to get too confusing without clarification. Because in-universe, Raditz telling Goku his origin is a reveal. It's information we accept that has always existed now being revealed to the characters. However, in real life, it is not a reveal. It is not information the author came up with only to hide from us until the time is right. He's not revealing anything to us. It's something he made up later and added to the story.

That the Tom Riddle diary in Harry Potter is said to be a horcrux is a true reveal. It's information the author was actually concealing and revealing to us. It's not a retcon because it was information that always existed in the author's mind and, therefore, in the world of the story. Goku becoming an alien is a retcon because, in real life, he literally does become an alien partway through life. We just delude ourselves otherwise for the sake of the story.

[Chuquita]

I'm at this point where while I'm still watching live, it's not the worst thing if the stream can't connect or freezes and I'll shrug it off and be forced to wait for subs.

I'm easily at my lowest point so far regarding interest in Super right now. I'm hoping having the rest of the writing team back can make things better, but I care so little about this tournament and so far don't care at all about any of the new characters introduced.
(Literally the opposite of how I felt about the Future Trunks arc; Future Trunks, Future Mai, Zamasu, Gokû Black, Gowasu -- I liked and got invested in all five!)
I'm only interested in the "Gokû learns a lesson about recklessness maybe?" in regards to this arc, and that might not even happen.
Also domestic Vegeta breaks my heart. I get that in order to align with EoZ it has to happen, but he's becoming so bland and seeing him drift away from Gokû even as Gokû tries multiple times to pull him back in is hard. In-universe I know what Vegeta's doing is the right thing for his family, but out of universe it's so boring!