Super has the right idea, but it doesn't work at this point: strategy's place in battle

[HybridSaiyan]

Point of the matter is, base goku can effortlessly shatter all of the bones in Krillins body without even trying. Where's the logic that a Krillin barrage of ki blasts forced Goku to turn SSJ? This is after Goku had been training for 7 years in other word, then continued training during the events of Super whereas Krillin had been living the chill life with Roshi and 18.

I'll tolerate the Gohan fight due to the fact Gohan's been slacking heavily however, it just feels like the Gohan and Goten training all over again.

[JulieYBM]

Super has been emphasizing tactics, strategy, sneak attacks, teamwork, unique abilities and so on in favor of raw power. Now, I find this commendable. Toei's writers, Toriyama, Toyotaro or whoever decides to implement these aspects in the stories they write is doing a fantastic thing; raw power being the only deciding factor in a fight limits the series way too much.

The problem is... it doesn't work at this point. The series has gone for far too long proving that raw strength is the only win that will eventually win you a fight (and it's not even a Z thing, contrary to popular belief, DB displayed the same mentality countless times too). Even if you get some sneak attacks in, it's still pretty much useless in the face of overwhelming strength. Even if you fight as a group, it's useless. The series has strutted this mentality that raw power is the most important thing, above everything else, that deviating from it and doing the exact opposite now just seems unbelievable and inconsistent with what was previously shown.

And the fanbase seems divided. You've got one side who thinks this is great and couldn't care less about powerlevel debates as long as characters can get to do cool stuff. And you've got the other side, who's so completely blinded by numbers that they can't accept anything other than their meticulously calculated outcome. Both sides are looking at things without understanding the other side, but I really can't say one is more correct than the other.

Consistency and variety are both needed in a series and it seems that you can't have both. Which one's more important to you?

Hi. Big Dragon Ball fan. Been with the franchise for nineteen years (if you want to call only watching the dub for ten or twelve years 'being a fan'). I also write fiction (both original and fan) in my spare time. I've watched hundreds of television series, comics and films. I have a variety of tastes for both consuming and creating. Allow me to share some views from those perspective.

Consistency is the dumbest excuse to do anything else. When you're wracking your brain day-after-day, night-after-night, struggling to produce a work you are creatively happy with, the last thing that should be on your mind is 'consistency'. Make something you're happy with, 'cause it sure isn't always going to be possible for someone else to make something you're happy with! This has always been how Toriyama Akira has operated and it is some pretty darn solid advice. When you've been creating a work for years and are still trying to add in new installments and try new things some silly thing like 'consistency' is not going to help. It's going to hinder. Hinder, hinder, hinder!

"Hey, let's do a new kind of tournament where instead of eight people fighting one-on-one it's EIGHTY people fighting all at once!"
"Awesome!"
"Hey, let's give Kuririn and the other humans something to do in this arc. I love their characters!"
"Huh?"
"They can use strategy and techniques to--"
"But that doesn't fit in with how things worked in the earlier story arcs!"
"Eh, whatever. This is what I feel like doing now--"
"NO!!! THE BATTLE POWERS WON'T MAKE ANY SENSE!!"
"We stopped using those for a reas--"
"BESIDES TENSHINHAN IS THE ONLY HUMAN WHO MIGHT EVER BE ABLE TO--"
"Then you make the fucking cartoon by yourself."

Why the hell is anyone attracted to art? It's because we like the experience of consuming the work, of course, but why? It's the characters, the color, the dialogue, the sounds, and the animation...but what do those things represent? The ideas and feelings of their creators. What we are doing is sharing in and learning about the person who creates them. We are experiencing a human connection. That connection is at it's more powerful and fruitful when the work represents the powerful feelings are its creators. If you start making up silly restrictions you are going to get a soulless creation. What the heck is the point of spending your time consuming something its creators have no passion for?

[VegettoEX]

Point of the matter is, base goku can effortlessly shatter all of the bones in Krillins body without even trying. Where's the logic that a Krillin barrage of ki blasts forced Goku to turn SSJ? This is after Goku had been training for 7 years in other word, then continued training during the events of Super whereas Krillin had been living the chill life with Roshi and 18.

Goku's very existence should destroy everything he comes in direct contact with, save some of these new gods.

That's not interesting and I don't want to watch that show.

(OK, it might be interesting, for... like... an episode. A la the random teleportation episode.)

[ChaosLordBrandon]

Point of the matter is, base goku can effortlessly shatter all of the bones in Krillins body without even trying. Where's the logic that a Krillin barrage of ki blasts forced Goku to turn SSJ? This is after Goku had been training for 7 years in other word, then continued training during the events of Super whereas Krillin had been living the chill life with Roshi and 18.

Goku's very existence should destroy everything he comes in direct contact with, save some of these new gods.

That's not interesting and I don't want to watch that show.

(OK, it might be interesting, for... like... an episode. A la the random teleportation episode.)

that would get boring less than a couple of mintues.

And that show be canceled in like four episodes tops.

[GodVegetto91]

I'm merely arguing that i can not tolerate mere humans, such as krillin, approaching a level where they can more or less provide a slight degree of resistance against a heavily holding back Goku in his SSJ Blue state.

I 100% agree with you and was outraged by the scene but someone made a good point here.

If Beerus, prior to becoming a part of the central cast, can show enough restraint in his power to slap Bulma and not kill her instantly, then it's really not far-fetched at all for Goku being able drastically restrain his strength, even as a Super Saiyan Blue, against Krillin in a sparring match. Especially since Super Saiyan Blue is all about perfect ki control.

I think I can accept that explanation actually, the perfect Ki control. If Krillin is a joke during the battle royale when it comes to fighting but can outsmart and contribute with great team backup strategy instead it might just turn out great. Fingers crossed.

That was indeed a good argument i agree. However this automatically leads us to the next question as to why he even needed to turn SSJ Blue at all, if he was going to heavily hold back anyway. Some have made the argument that Goku only transformed in order to "prepare" Krillin for opponents on his level/god level. But what good would it be, if the actual power he uses in battle does not match that actual God Power? (I.e holding back)

[TheMikado]

This idea of catching opponents off guard if their is a HUGE power gap is a myth, that really isn't supported by what we have seen. We have seen fighters who are a tier or two below a fighter catch an opponent off guard, however Toriyama time and time again has shown if the power gap is too significant. There is almost nothing you can do.

You can't establish something for years in-universe and suddenly say oh nevermind that doesn't apply. Actually you can, but that doesn't make good writing.

In this case, it's not about catching them off-guard and... I dunno, killing them; all someone has to do is get a ring-out. I mean, see: Goku vs. Botamo.

I really, really, really don't see the issue here.

Ok, I will try to make this clear and simple. If an individual has a substantial power gap I would be willing to say a magnitude of 10-20x that of their own power level (I'm pulling these numbers out of nowhere, but Toriyama has consistent shown it needs to be a substantial magnitude of difference.) They can't even budge the opponent. It would be one thing if Botamo picked Goku up and threw him out of the ring. That's not what happened.

Toriyama himself has shown If the enemy is powerful enough they don't even have to be paying attention or using any stamina at all. I've referenced these instances. Just by them sheer existing, Krillin wasn't able to do anything to an enemy with a substantial power gap.

What I've been saying is that is the gap is significant enough there's no such thing as "catching them off guard".

Nappa was getting constantly hammered by Kurrin and Piccolo, despite being massively stronger and even if there was no real damage done, the blows still had all the impact. Freeza at 50% was knocked away by a Piccolo using scraps of Gohan and Kuririn's energy. Super Saiyan kid Trunks kicked Majin Boo hard enough to have a lengthy chat with Vegeta.

The Cell situation is an exception, not the rule.

Except this is not true. Remember Nappa was only around 4/5000 on the powerscale and everyone was 1200 without even powering up. Piccolo was like a 3500 to Nappa's 4000. That's more than close enough. Same with Frieza vs Piccolo, we have no idea how strong Piccolo actually because after Nail fusion. We've seen it in World's Martial Arts tournament already multiple times with the Z fighters. Remember Mr. Satan vs 18??

I really don't know what else to tell you, Toriyama established long ago that if the gap is significant you pretty much cannot do anything at all to the opponent. That's part of the established lore.. Why are we acting like this isn't a thing at all now? I really don't have a horse in this race, but I'm not going to act like years of themes, motifs, and other great troupes of the series didn't happen or don't exist to make this align.

The entire point of this thread is recognizing that the power inflation built into the narrative to the point where if the gap is significant you essentially have the equivalent effect as a mosquito has been driven home hard in Toriyama's works. That's how the narrative was written and this is an attempt to backtrack on that troupe.

So here is the point, if Krillin manages to effectively handle anyone stronger than Base Goku, without a specific plot device, then we have to use head canon to resolve it. Otherwise the effect of someone at that level against Krillin should be the same as vs Perfect Cell, or Mr. Satan vs 18, or SSJ3 Gotenks vs Copy Vegeta. This was not a one off, this is an established motif of the series. Pretending its not hasn't been for some time now is disingenuous.

[HybridSaiyan]

Point of the matter is, base goku can effortlessly shatter all of the bones in Krillins body without even trying. Where's the logic that a Krillin barrage of ki blasts forced Goku to turn SSJ? This is after Goku had been training for 7 years in other word, then continued training during the events of Super whereas Krillin had been living the chill life with Roshi and 18.

Goku's very existence should destroy everything he comes in direct contact with, save some of these new gods.

That's not interesting and I don't want to watch that show.

(OK, it might be interesting, for... like... an episode. A la the random teleportation episode.)

You're right, that would send me to sleep but that shouldn't give the excuse for Krillin to match the power Goku has, never mind drive him to turn SSJ. There was no telling if Goku was holding back or not anyway. No dialogue that even suggested such a thing. For all we know, Krillin could be around SSJ Goku in strength now. How awesome is that! Never even knew lifting them weights could boost your power level that much! Next thing Krillin needs to do to prepare is to do that shit on 100x gravity and shabam! He may be SSJ2 Tier.

[TheMikado]

Point of the matter is, base goku can effortlessly shatter all of the bones in Krillins body without even trying. Where's the logic that a Krillin barrage of ki blasts forced Goku to turn SSJ? This is after Goku had been training for 7 years in other word, then continued training during the events of Super whereas Krillin had been living the chill life with Roshi and 18.

Goku's very existence should destroy everything he comes in direct contact with, save some of these new gods.

That's not interesting and I don't want to watch that show.

(OK, it might be interesting, for... like... an episode. A la the random teleportation episode.)

that would get boring less than a couple of mintues.

And that show be canceled in like four episodes tops.

One Punch Man says hello.
In fact this is literally the perfect satirical response to what DBZ is doing now.
It pokes fun at how so determination and some routine training are enough to suddenly make you an unstoppable juggernaut. Its a critique of the thoughtless shonen power ups that plague the industry, and how making your characters so insanely powerful makes it difficult to keep coming up with adequate believable enemies for your protagonist to battle.

I've always looked at OPM as a sharp critique of Dragonball, the misuse of the RoSaT, and the endless stream of increasing more power enemies out of nowhere.

[GodVegetto91]

Point of the matter is, base goku can effortlessly shatter all of the bones in Krillins body without even trying. Where's the logic that a Krillin barrage of ki blasts forced Goku to turn SSJ? This is after Goku had been training for 7 years in other word, then continued training during the events of Super whereas Krillin had been living the chill life with Roshi and 18.

Goku's very existence should destroy everything he comes in direct contact with, save some of these new gods.

That's not interesting and I don't want to watch that show.

(OK, it might be interesting, for... like... an episode. A la the random teleportation episode.)

Well i do think it's interesting. Goku doesn't need to have a challenging, interesting fight against fodder like Krillin. That said, do i want him to stay unchallenged forever? Absolutely not. He's got plenty of challenge from the Gods and other tough foes such as the likes of Hit, Toppo and Jiren. These are all interesting fights and great! However i DO argue that i would like Goku to be completely untouchable against the likes of human fodder. Like you said, his mere existence should be enough to blow them away into the dust they belong.

This way, we are both satisfied. On one hand we have the respective powerscaling consistency fans such as me long for so much, and on the other hand, we have interesting and challenging fights for our beloving Goku! Everyone happy.

[HybridSaiyan]

Point of the matter is, base goku can effortlessly shatter all of the bones in Krillins body without even trying. Where's the logic that a Krillin barrage of ki blasts forced Goku to turn SSJ? This is after Goku had been training for 7 years in other word, then continued training during the events of Super whereas Krillin had been living the chill life with Roshi and 18.

Goku's very existence should destroy everything he comes in direct contact with, save some of these new gods.

That's not interesting and I don't want to watch that show.

(OK, it might be interesting, for... like... an episode. A la the random teleportation episode.)

Well i do think it's interesting. Goku doesn't need to have a challenging, interesting fight against fodder like Krillin. That said, do i want him to stay unchallenged forever? Absolutely not. He's got plenty of challenge from the Gods and other tough foes such as the likes of Hit, Toppo and Jiren. These are all interesting fights and great! However i DO argue that i would like Goku to be completely untouchable against the likes of human fodder. Like you said, his mere existence should be enough to blow them away into the dust they belong.

This way, we are both satisfied. On one hand we have the respective powerscaling consistency fans such as me long for so much, and on the other hand, we have interesting and challenging fights for our beloving Goku! Everyone happy.

I understand the reasoning behind it all, but in all seriousness. Did they have to make Goku go SSJ or even Blue? He could've done the same whilst being in base. That's mostly what I'm salty about. It comes off to me as fanservice, just to show Blue and spar with Krillin to bring back that nostalgic feeling of their fight in Dragon Ball. A few arcs back, Base Goku punched Krillin's face and he had to be hospitalized lmao. Would the same outcome have happened if this were in the Buu Saga? SSJ3 Goku beam struggling with Krillin?

[Draconic]

You know, until I see one of the weaker characters actually defeat a much more powerful opponent in one-on-one combat, knocking him out cold, I really don't see what's the problem.
Non-top tier characters have always had showings where trough sheer will and tactical capacity could stand up to foes way out of their league. They never won such a battle and certainly didn't fare well the moment the stronger character actually set out to defeat them, but they were always shown to be capable.

For every Tenshinhan vs Piccolo Daimao you had your Krillin vs Piccolo, Yamcha vs God, Yamcha vs Tenshinhan.
For every Cell vs Krillin you had your Piccolo/Krillin/Gohan vs Nappa, Goku/Piccolo vs Raditz, Krillin vs Recoome, Tenshinhan vs Cell or Super Buu, Piccolo vs Freeza (buying time for the Genki Dama).

Focusing on just one kind of strength showing, while ignoring the other, just as valid one, is missing the point entirely. Characters are shown in a different light depending on the situation. It's quite a simple formula actually: Character is built up as unbeatable, weaker opponent surprises him, character starts taking things seriously, weaker opponent loses, character of equal strength defeats/is a match for initial character.
Super really hasn't deviated from this. Beerus wrecks Goku, Vegeta surprises Beerus, Beerus wrecks Vegeta, Godku gives Beerus tough battle; Black defeats Vegeta, Trunks pushes him back, Trunks gets wrecked, Goku gives Black a tough battle; Goku is... well Goku, Krillin pushes him back, Goku wrecks Krillin.

The argument that you must have a "consistent" power scaling is flawed because as of now there really hasn't been a weak character defeating someone he should have no right too. There is stuff like Krillin and Trunks holding off stronger people but they never really win. Even Trunks' Genki Sword moment is not achieved by himself since he takes energy from everybody.
There's this idiotic mindset that if you are stronger than someone the opponent should just like explode or get his whole body put out of comission if he gets punched. That certainly isn't entertaining, interesting in the least or well written. Sure, that's possible to happen in certain situations, but it's not the norm, but that's going back to the earlier argument: characters are portrayed in one way this episode/chapter and another way the next. It's for drama, not supposed to be dissected the way it is.

Even so, the way it's portrayed isn't really the best. There is room for improvement, but really, the whole ordeal is at worst presented poorly and at best fixing a problem that plagued the series for a long time. In itself not only is it the right idea, but makes for much more interesting outcomes and more entertaining battles. It's not like Tenshinhan will beat Toppo hand to hand, but getting a Kikoho in to push him away or a Dodonpa to distract him will make things more dynamic.

[MathSSJ]

Except this is not true. Remember Nappa was only around 4/5000 on the powerscale and everyone was 1200 without even powering up. Piccolo was like a 3500 to Nappa's 4000. That's more than close enough. Same with Frieza vs Piccolo, we have no idea how strong Piccolo actually because after Nail fusion. We've seen it in World's Martial Arts tournament already multiple times with the Z fighters. Remember Mr. Satan vs 18??

I really don't know what else to tell you, Toriyama established long ago that if the gap is significant you pretty much cannot do anything at all to the opponent. That's part of the established lore.. Why are we acting like this isn't a thing at all now? I really don't have a horse in this race, but I'm not going to act like years of themes, motifs, and other great troupes of the series didn't happen or don't exist to make this align.

The entire point of this thread is recognizing that the power inflation built into the narrative to the point where if the gap is significant you essentially have the equivalent effect as a mosquito has been driven home hard in Toriyama's works. That's how the narrative was written and this is an attempt to backtrack on that troupe.

So here is the point, if Krillin manages to effectively handle anyone stronger than Base Goku, without a specific plot device, then we have to use head canon to resolve it. Otherwise the effect of someone at that level against Krillin should be the same as vs Perfect Cell, or Mr. Satan vs 18, or SSJ3 Gotenks vs Copy Vegeta. This was not a one off, this is an established motif of the series. Pretending its not hasn't been for some time now is disingenuous.

Piccolo was established at being 3500 and Nappa at 4000, while Piccolo couldn't do jack squat against Nappa besides minor stunning. Besides, Nappa's Battle Power wasn't ever stated in the manga.

We know how strong Piccolo is: roughly at the level or slightly above Freeza's second form but below Freeza's third since he got demolished by it. This isn't rocket science. Mind you, that's also a Piccolo with minimal energy left and after getting some scrap Ki from Gohan and Kuririn, who are so far below him they might as well be nothing. Why did you ignore the Boo example as well?

There is so much obnoxious BS power gains in the series that someone that cares about the lore or consistency in how that shit is gained I can't see why anyone would be bothered. Care to explain to me how Piccolo went from 3.5k to Nail's level in less then a week? Why do the earthlings had better gains in less time then Goku while using the same training methods? Why are hybrid saiyans ridiculous power ups ok when then go directly against the primary theme of the series?

[SansrivaaL]

True that there is no problem beating them in a tactical kind of way, thats why this tourny has rules to begin with, but what kind of purpose did Krillin's ki wave forcing Goku to turn SSJ and a tired Krillin KHH V SSJB KHH and he actually pushed it back have any meaning in a tactical or team type kind of way? it does not! it has no meaning besides raw power, Krillin had enough power in his ki wave to force Goku into SSJ, he had enough ki in his KHH to have Goku put effort in his SSJB KHH, THATS THE PROBLEM! if they wanted to make a point of raw power isnt everything then they shouldnt have showed Krillin can overpower base Goku to the point of going SSJ let alone SSJB KHH, it has no meaning!

If Goku merely wanted to test Krillin's resolve and if what he does in the face of an overwhelming opponent, they coulda handled it like how Gildarts treated Natsu, like how Saitama Treated Genos in their training match.
Have Goku walk to Krillin and have him tremble in fear infront of SSJB (which he should be) and just have him stand his ground, not collapse and then Goku turns back to base and tells Krillin "thats enough" but no, instead we get a Krillin that got so caught up in the moment that he got cocky and told Goku "HEY YOU CAN HAVE GOHAN HELP YOU IF YOU WANT" and got pissed when Goku called that it was done, he's implying that him and 18 working together actually has a chance against Goku? the writters done fcked up with how they're supposed to handle their fight and interactions, and God knows what Goku even learned from those 2, its obviously not teamwork,tricky moves, strategy since he already knew that in the previews episode, he learned nothing from those 2!

[VegettoEX]

I didn't read that as cockiness: I read that as showcasing the exact resolve necessary, and expressing aloud the limits and depths he's willing to go to in order to meet this challenge.

And it's all wrapped up with Goku learning a lesson because of it.

Man, this episode was great. Let's go talk about it in the actual episode discussion thread, though!

[pacz360]

Point of the matter is, base goku can effortlessly shatter all of the bones in Krillins body without even trying. Where's the logic that a Krillin barrage of ki blasts forced Goku to turn SSJ? This is after Goku had been training for 7 years in other word, then continued training during the events of Super whereas Krillin had been living the chill life with Roshi and 18.

Goku's very existence should destroy everything he comes in direct contact with, save some of these new gods.

That's not interesting and I don't want to watch that show.

(OK, it might be interesting, for... like... an episode. A la the random teleportation episode.)

That's pretty much every character In fiction if were being honest here.

[TheMikado]

Except this is not true. Remember Nappa was only around 4/5000 on the powerscale and everyone was 1200 without even powering up. Piccolo was like a 3500 to Nappa's 4000. That's more than close enough. Same with Frieza vs Piccolo, we have no idea how strong Piccolo actually because after Nail fusion. We've seen it in World's Martial Arts tournament already multiple times with the Z fighters. Remember Mr. Satan vs 18??

I really don't know what else to tell you, Toriyama established long ago that if the gap is significant you pretty much cannot do anything at all to the opponent. That's part of the established lore.. Why are we acting like this isn't a thing at all now? I really don't have a horse in this race, but I'm not going to act like years of themes, motifs, and other great troupes of the series didn't happen or don't exist to make this align.

The entire point of this thread is recognizing that the power inflation built into the narrative to the point where if the gap is significant you essentially have the equivalent effect as a mosquito has been driven home hard in Toriyama's works. That's how the narrative was written and this is an attempt to backtrack on that troupe.

So here is the point, if Krillin manages to effectively handle anyone stronger than Base Goku, without a specific plot device, then we have to use head canon to resolve it. Otherwise the effect of someone at that level against Krillin should be the same as vs Perfect Cell, or Mr. Satan vs 18, or SSJ3 Gotenks vs Copy Vegeta. This was not a one off, this is an established motif of the series. Pretending its not hasn't been for some time now is disingenuous.

Piccolo was established at being 3500 and Nappa at 4000, while Piccolo couldn't do jack squat against Nappa besides minor stunning. Besides, Nappa's Battle Power wasn't ever stated in the manga.

We know how strong Piccolo is: roughly at the level or slightly above Freeza's second form but below Freeza's third since he got demolished by it. This isn't rocket science. Mind you, that's also a Piccolo with minimal energy left and after getting some scrap Ki from Gohan and Kuririn, who are so far below him they might as well be nothing. Why did you ignore the Boo example as well?

There is so much obnoxious BS power gains in the series that someone that cares about the lore or consistency in how that shit is gained I can't see why anyone would be bothered. Care to explain to me how Piccolo went from 3.5k to Nail's level in less then a week? Why do the earthlings had better gains in less time then Goku while using the same training methods? Why are hybrid saiyans ridiculous power ups ok when then go directly against the primary theme of the series?

To your points, Piccolo was around 1 million as that's the power level of Frieza's 2nd form. I have no idea what Frieza's power level was and don't care about the specifics, merely 50% was likely around 6 million or something stupid like that. Anyway the point is Piccolo got powered up to be within a certain range of Frieza. As far as Piccolo vs Nappa, I'm not sure how that disproves my point? Piccolo was close enough in power to Nappa that his attacks actually have a physical reaction to Nappa, even if he exceeds Piccolo's power. Your examples are proving my point, not disproving it. I'm not even ignoring the Boo example, we know Trunks and Goten are fairly close to the adults in SSJ forms from their sparring. We know Buu is supposedly weaker than SSJ3 and that SSJ2 is only a 2x multiplier over SSJ. The multiplier gap between Buu and SSJ Trunks is likely much less than 20x or even 10x.

Look, I'm not pretending the power-ups and reasons aren't BS. They absolutely are. However they are part of the lore and plot and at least give us an explanation as to why things like Piccolo fighting a power level around 1 million makes some sense. Imagine the nail fusion didn't happen and last known fighting power of Piccolo was 3500.. and he's doing ok against a 1 million level Frieza? The only conclusion you can draw is that Frieza really isn't that much stronger in this form than say Vegeta or Nappa. I'm not advocating keeping specific numbers, I am simply saying it lets us know where characters stand in relation to each other and how dire a situation they are in. All we really know is that Piccolo go some supposed huge power boosts through both Kai Training and Nail fusion and its still not enough. I don't have anything more to contribute on this really except this prediction.

Krillin will perform decently against foes which give SSJ Gokua and possibly SSB some difficulty. When the time comes, this scene will be used as a reference point by the writers to show how strong Krillin was prior to the tournament. They will justify later BS with this present BS but that's really par for the course now, we don't even get attempts to create plot mechanisms for their power ups now.

[DragonBallFoodie]

I think that for the most part, the fights have almost always used a fair amount of strategy:
- Goku threw a frog into the fight with Vegeta and Capt Ginyu, which stopped Ginyu's mind-swap
- while Goku was fighting Freeza, he coordinated a plan to save the Namekians with Kame on Earth
- Goku teleported Cell away from Earth
- and recently Goku combined his Kaio-ken with his Super Saiyan Blue to create a new mode and Trunks used a Mafuba to seal Zamasu away.

The only times I know where strategy wasn't effective was when the concept of fusion (and thus Goku and Vegeta combining) was needed against an opponent who was too powerful (Buu, Merged Zamasu).


Bringing in Krillin, Tien and Roshi sound comparably odd, but I think we may see surprises from them. Krillin has got some decent time to build himself up, while I expect Tien and Roshi should still be strong from their DB days (particularly Roshi, who is a sensei).

18 and 17 were meant to be on match with a Super Saiyan (they did beat Vegeta senseless), but I am curious as to how they can build themselves up.


Anyway we shall have to see how the fights take place.