Kienzan use ( bad writing )

[TheMikado]

Leaving the filler argument alone for a second, even if you want to argue that the Krillin vs Cell destructo disk should be considered, you still have the issue that it was due to their insane power gap. Meaning if the characters were strong enough to tank that attack then there's no way Krillin should be able to fight them at all.

[Simere]

Leaving the filler argument alone for a second, even if you want to argue that the Krillin vs Cell destructo disk should be considered, you still have the issue that it was due to their insane power gap. Meaning if the characters were strong enough to tank that attack then there's no way Krillin should be able to fight them at all.

There's no way Krillin should be able to fight them at all.

[Lionel]

Who says Krillin needs to engage using fisticuffs? The objective of the tournament is to knock as many opponents out of bounds as possible. If these characters were actually using their abilities to their fullest extent they could have made a huge distance between themselves and the ring with Piccolo's materialisation sorcery, then proceed to have Krillin carve it into pieces using his Kienzan barrage. A very large amount of the competition would fall into the abyss from that tactic alone. Anyone else left standing would be limited in their ability to manoeuvre.

[Cetra]

Toei writers, as any writer, can write what they want, but they are supposed to keep a coherency with the content they are producing the filler for ...

They are not. They are supposed to do their job and write something and that's it. How consistent it has to be is totally up to them and their own higher instances. Coherency by the end of the day is just something that makes it "more enjoyable for us because this way we can keep track of something". But that's exactly the good thing about fiction. It can be as incoherent as it wants to be, it still exists the way it does because it does not follow any rules of our universe in the first place. That is also why a story can still exist with plotholes. And whether you like it or not, giving a character a massive power boost is no inconsitency. It just is "the writer making it himself very convenient". I could tell you tons of examples of other things in the show and you would just use some fan explanation that has no value for the show itself and is still a true inconsistency so please lets keep it honest here.

So if Yamcha had trained with Kaio instead of Goku, he would have crushed Earth Vegeta with a finger. It was not bad writing, it was horrible and totally unbuyable.

Again, it does not matter what you buy. It is fiction and it happened in the show. The show - so those who make it - do(es) not care the slightest what you think and regard or disregard. Just as my thoughts do not count for it. I also do not like all the sloppy decisions that are in Dragon Ball. And I say they are nonsensical. But I will not waste my time acting like me saying "I do not believe that/I don't buy this/this did not happen" would have any meaning or change anything because it does not. Even the truly wonky things that are worth really being considered silly.

Kami's training has been always described as inconsistent too, Toriyama is not perfect, everyone knows power scaling is an issue in DB. But, in this case, I will use your words, he really can do all he wants, because DB is his son, that doesn't make it all good anyway. But Toei shouldn't.

Yes, they should. They have the license to work on the anime. They should not send every single word they ever write to Toriyama-san who is not the only person to work on Dragon Ball and he obviously never even bothered as much as the fans did because, even when criticising stuff like some portrayals of Gokuu in the anime, Toriyama-san himself very often also shows/showed his respect for those who also work on Dragon Ball by even saying really really intriguing and complimenting stuff like" they even know more about it than I do". And when the original inventor of a product says that you really should let go of disrespecting the work of those who have the right to work on it. He is fine with what they do. And when he does his own thing, he does his own thing. It is just that simple. He works on the official product, they work on the official product. We on the other hand are just some random people who don't have the right to do crap for Dragon Ball and whose words are useless in that regard.

And that was just an example, but we can have more, like the Garlic junior arc, which is a sequel to the first movie, which is incompatible with the series itself, as the rest of the movies. Some fillers cause problems, that's how it is, so most people leave them out of canon.

And as mentioned, coherency does not matter in the slightest. It might interrupt the flow a bit but that's really it. The normal show is full of stuff and people just throw in any magical theories that they count as fact to justify that and not call it an inconcistency. That is what almost the entirety of this forum and other platforms consist of. Total waste-of-time-arguments. Which is exactly what is going to happen here again because you will once more disagree and ignore the rights of Toei and that you and I can't do anything about it and I will repeat myself and so on. So instead of doing the same thing I know from the last 13 years on the internet about more than just Dragon Ball and about every forum user that thinks he has something new to respond while it actually is the same stuff everyone says, I will end it exactly here.

[Simere]

Who says Krillin needs to engage using fisticuffs? The objective of the tournament is to knock as many opponents out of bounds as possible. If these characters were actually using their abilities to their fullest extent they could have made a huge distance between themselves and the ring with Piccolo's materialisation sorcery, then proceed to have Krillin carve it into pieces using his Kienzan barrage. A very large amount of the competition would fall into the abyss from that tactic alone. Anyone else left standing would be limited in their ability to manoeuvre.

That just rounds back to the question of whether Krillin's Kienzan is capable of cutting through the ring.

Honestly, I hate strategic theorizing like this. Where the opposing side just sits there doing nothing and allows the strategy to go off without a hitch. Being on a materialized platform outside the ring is a massive vulnerability. I suppose you'll have #17/#18 act as barriers to protect it? And, like the Kienzan, that ability is endless? And it will keep enemy blasts out, but allow friendly blasts through? And if the opponent, in turn, blocks incoming blasts, you'll have Goku IT over to distract them? Or perhaps to evacuate?

Or do you bypass all that and say "No, It will happen too fast for anyone to react"?

In general, such extravagant multilayered planning is the domain of amateurs. I'm not saying all complicated strategies are bad, just most of them. Low level fighters, players, or armchair generals weave fanciful scenarios in which they'll prevail, only to fall apart immediately when faced with a competent opponent who knows how to respond. Unless we think these repeatedly stated fighting geniuses are actually idiots, then we have to assume the reason they don't do any of these convoluted tactics is because they won't work. Or that their chances of success aren't high enough to warrant the risk. Because, again, they just don't get to do these things for free. Attempting these tactics opens themselves up to be countered.

For decades we've heard "just Solar Flare into Destructo Disc, win every time". I, for one, am quite pleased to see it revealed as ineffective.

[Zagacious]

And as mentioned, coherency does not matter in the slightest. It might interrupt the flow a bit but that's really it. The normal show is full of stuff and people just throw in any magical theories that they count as fact to justify that and not call it an inconcistency. That is what almost the entirety of this forum and other platforms consist of. Total waste-of-time-arguments. Which is exactly what is going to happen here again because you will once more disagree and ignore the rights of Toei and that you and I can't do anything about it and I will repeat myself and so on. So instead of doing the same thing I know from the last 13 years on the internet about more than just Dragon Ball and about every forum user that thinks he has something new to respond while it actually is the same stuff everyone says, I will end it exactly here.

You're right about one thing, that's your opinion. Just saying it doesn't matter isn't an argument, you're just dismissing all plot holes and inconsistencies because it's fiction isn't an explanation either, fiction doesn't mean nothing has to make any sense, and it has a great impact on the flow of the story. Some inconsistencies have good explanations, and many don't, that doesn't just make them okay if they're all over the place it does indeed affect the overall quality and flow.

[JulianStyles]

Do you guys think that krillin and piccolo are so poor with thier ki control, that they are only able to go all out with their techniques and not limit the impact ?

I don't see any issue with them using techniques with just enough power to push rather than pierce.

So Krillin used the butter knife setting?

[GodKaio-Ken]

Leaving the filler argument alone for a second, even if you want to argue that the Krillin vs Cell destructo disk should be considered, you still have the issue that it was due to their insane power gap. Meaning if the characters were strong enough to tank that attack then there's no way Krillin should be able to fight them at all.

There's no way Krillin should be able to fight them at all.

Lol

Its actually true. Krillin, Tien, and Roshi really dont belong in this match. They can probably fight the fodder of other universe but it will take everything they have just to stay on the stage against a lot of fighters IMO.

[TheMikado]

Toei writers, as any writer, can write what they want, but they are supposed to keep a coherency with the content they are producing the filler for ...

They are not. They are supposed to do their job and write something and that's it. How consistent it has to be is totally up to them and their own higher instances. Coherency by the end of the day is just something that makes it "more enjoyable for us because this way we can keep track of something". But that's exactly the good thing about fiction. It can be as incoherent as it wants to be, it still exists the way it does because it does not follow any rules of our universe in the first place. That is also why a story can still exist with plotholes. And whether you like it or not, giving a character a massive power boost is no inconsitency. It just is "the writer making it himself very convenient". I could tell you tons of examples of other things in the show and you would just use some fan explanation that has no value for the show itself and is still a true inconsistency so please lets keep it honest here.

So if Yamcha had trained with Kaio instead of Goku, he would have crushed Earth Vegeta with a finger. It was not bad writing, it was horrible and totally unbuyable.

Again, it does not matter what you buy. It is fiction and it happened in the show. The show - so those who make it - do(es) not care the slightest what you think and regard or disregard. Just as my thoughts do not count for it. I also do not like all the sloppy decisions that are in Dragon Ball. And I say they are nonsensical. But I will not waste my time acting like me saying "I do not believe that/I don't buy this/this did not happen" would have any meaning or change anything because it does not. Even the truly wonky things that are worth really being considered silly.

Kami's training has been always described as inconsistent too, Toriyama is not perfect, everyone knows power scaling is an issue in DB. But, in this case, I will use your words, he really can do all he wants, because DB is his son, that doesn't make it all good anyway. But Toei shouldn't.

Yes, they should. They have the license to work on the anime. They should not send every single word they ever write to Toriyama-san who is not the only person to work on Dragon Ball and he obviously never even bothered as much as the fans did because, even when criticising stuff like some portrayals of Gokuu in the anime, Toriyama-san himself very often also shows/showed his respect for those who also work on Dragon Ball by even saying really really intriguing and complimenting stuff like" they even know more about it than I do". And when the original inventor of a product says that you really should let go of disrespecting the work of those who have the right to work on it. He is fine with what they do. And when he does his own thing, he does his own thing. It is just that simple. He works on the official product, they work on the official product. We on the other hand are just some random people who don't have the right to do crap for Dragon Ball and whose words are useless in that regard.

And that was just an example, but we can have more, like the Garlic junior arc, which is a sequel to the first movie, which is incompatible with the series itself, as the rest of the movies. Some fillers cause problems, that's how it is, so most people leave them out of canon.

And as mentioned, coherency does not matter in the slightest. It might interrupt the flow a bit but that's really it. The normal show is full of stuff and people just throw in any magical theories that they count as fact to justify that and not call it an inconcistency. That is what almost the entirety of this forum and other platforms consist of. Total waste-of-time-arguments. Which is exactly what is going to happen here again because you will once more disagree and ignore the rights of Toei and that you and I can't do anything about it and I will repeat myself and so on. So instead of doing the same thing I know from the last 13 years on the internet about more than just Dragon Ball and about every forum user that thinks he has something new to respond while it actually is the same stuff everyone says, I will end it exactly here.

Hmm so by this reasoning GT happened as well. Good to know.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Well one of the enemies he used it on was Botamo, who could just absorb it.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Toei writers, as any writer, can write what they want, but they are supposed to keep a coherency with the content they are producing the filler for ...

They are not. They are supposed to do their job and write something and that's it. How consistent it has to be is totally up to them and their own higher instances. Coherency by the end of the day is just something that makes it "more enjoyable for us because this way we can keep track of something". But that's exactly the good thing about fiction. It can be as incoherent as it wants to be, it still exists the way it does because it does not follow any rules of our universe in the first place. That is also why a story can still exist with plotholes. And whether you like it or not, giving a character a massive power boost is no inconsitency. It just is "the writer making it himself very convenient". I could tell you tons of examples of other things in the show and you would just use some fan explanation that has no value for the show itself and is still a true inconsistency so please lets keep it honest here.

So if Yamcha had trained with Kaio instead of Goku, he would have crushed Earth Vegeta with a finger. It was not bad writing, it was horrible and totally unbuyable.

Again, it does not matter what you buy. It is fiction and it happened in the show. The show - so those who make it - do(es) not care the slightest what you think and regard or disregard. Just as my thoughts do not count for it. I also do not like all the sloppy decisions that are in Dragon Ball. And I say they are nonsensical. But I will not waste my time acting like me saying "I do not believe that/I don't buy this/this did not happen" would have any meaning or change anything because it does not. Even the truly wonky things that are worth really being considered silly.

Kami's training has been always described as inconsistent too, Toriyama is not perfect, everyone knows power scaling is an issue in DB. But, in this case, I will use your words, he really can do all he wants, because DB is his son, that doesn't make it all good anyway. But Toei shouldn't.

Yes, they should. They have the license to work on the anime. They should not send every single word they ever write to Toriyama-san who is not the only person to work on Dragon Ball and he obviously never even bothered as much as the fans did because, even when criticising stuff like some portrayals of Gokuu in the anime, Toriyama-san himself very often also shows/showed his respect for those who also work on Dragon Ball by even saying really really intriguing and complimenting stuff like" they even know more about it than I do". And when the original inventor of a product says that you really should let go of disrespecting the work of those who have the right to work on it. He is fine with what they do. And when he does his own thing, he does his own thing. It is just that simple. He works on the official product, they work on the official product. We on the other hand are just some random people who don't have the right to do crap for Dragon Ball and whose words are useless in that regard.

And that was just an example, but we can have more, like the Garlic junior arc, which is a sequel to the first movie, which is incompatible with the series itself, as the rest of the movies. Some fillers cause problems, that's how it is, so most people leave them out of canon.

And as mentioned, coherency does not matter in the slightest. It might interrupt the flow a bit but that's really it. The normal show is full of stuff and people just throw in any magical theories that they count as fact to justify that and not call it an inconcistency. That is what almost the entirety of this forum and other platforms consist of. Total waste-of-time-arguments. Which is exactly what is going to happen here again because you will once more disagree and ignore the rights of Toei and that you and I can't do anything about it and I will repeat myself and so on. So instead of doing the same thing I know from the last 13 years on the internet about more than just Dragon Ball and about every forum user that thinks he has something new to respond while it actually is the same stuff everyone says, I will end it exactly here.

Hmm so by this reasoning GT happened as well. Good to know.

There is a difference between minor inconsistency and something that absolutely doesnt fit. GT (thankfully) doesnt fit at all within the timeline. That is a huge difference from minor flow issues.

[TheMikado]

Yeah let's just wait for the end of Super to call that one.
We now have two Gods of everything, entire universes and timelines being erased, and time rewinds. I mean we are currently in an arc where multiple universes will be completely erased from existence and the prize are Super Dragonballs. More importantly, they could make it fit if they want to, they are Toei products and can make both Super and GT connect pretty easily if they want and that's perfectly fine according to what was agreed upon above.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Yeah let's just wait for the end of Super to call that one.
We now have two Gods of everything, entire universes and timelines being erased, and time rewinds. I mean we are currently in an arc where multiple universes will be completely erased from existence and the prize are Super Dragonballs. More importantly, they could make it fit if they want to, they are Toei products and can make both Super and GT connect pretty easily if they want and that's perfectly fine according to what was agreed upon above.

The only way they can connect is if Super never really happens.

I really hope not. GT is basically the biggest piece of garbage ever created (Any anime not just DB) minus SSJ4.

[PeanutSaiyan]

Yeah let's just wait for the end of Super to call that one.
We now have two Gods of everything, entire universes and timelines being erased, and time rewinds. I mean we are currently in an arc where multiple universes will be completely erased from existence and the prize are Super Dragonballs. More importantly, they could make it fit if they want to, they are Toei products and can make both Super and GT connect pretty easily if they want and that's perfectly fine according to what was agreed upon above.

The only way they can connect is if Super never really happens.

I really hope not. GT is basically the biggest piece of garbage ever created (Any anime not just DB) minus SSJ4.

tbh they're both in the same "let's put out some garbage and capitalize on our fan's willingness to eat anything dragonball related" universe.

[TheMikado]

^ pretty much, but I will say it seems like there legitimate love and understanding for the series in GT. Even in the way they have Vegeta reflect on his life and tying SSJ4 to so many aspects of the lore. To tying the shadow dragons to the wishes as far back as the original DB. GTvwas really a love letter to the fans by people who loved the swri s as much as we did.

As far as making Super never happening, I've made this prediction before but I really think whoever wins is going to wish Goku never met Beerus. It literally solves the the Future Trunks arc ending, the two Zenos, and they could fudge the RoF arc to never happen. Like I've been saying I think they will do a series reboot following this arc. But that's just my opinion.

[Basako]

Toei writers, as any writer, can write what they want, but they are supposed to keep a coherency with the content they are producing the filler for ...

They are not. They are supposed to do their job and write something and that's it. How consistent it has to be is totally up to them and their own higher instances. Coherency by the end of the day is just something that makes it "more enjoyable for us because this way we can keep track of something". But that's exactly the good thing about fiction. It can be as incoherent as it wants to be, it still exists the way it does because it does not follow any rules of our universe in the first place. That is also why a story can still exist with plotholes. And whether you like it or not, giving a character a massive power boost is no inconsitency. It just is "the writer making it himself very convenient". I could tell you tons of examples of other things in the show and you would just use some fan explanation that has no value for the show itself and is still a true inconsistency so please lets keep it honest here.

So if Yamcha had trained with Kaio instead of Goku, he would have crushed Earth Vegeta with a finger. It was not bad writing, it was horrible and totally unbuyable.

Again, it does not matter what you buy. It is fiction and it happened in the show. The show - so those who make it - do(es) not care the slightest what you think and regard or disregard. Just as my thoughts do not count for it. I also do not like all the sloppy decisions that are in Dragon Ball. And I say they are nonsensical. But I will not waste my time acting like me saying "I do not believe that/I don't buy this/this did not happen" would have any meaning or change anything because it does not. Even the truly wonky things that are worth really being considered silly.

Kami's training has been always described as inconsistent too, Toriyama is not perfect, everyone knows power scaling is an issue in DB. But, in this case, I will use your words, he really can do all he wants, because DB is his son, that doesn't make it all good anyway. But Toei shouldn't.

Yes, they should. They have the license to work on the anime. They should not send every single word they ever write to Toriyama-san who is not the only person to work on Dragon Ball and he obviously never even bothered as much as the fans did because, even when criticising stuff like some portrayals of Gokuu in the anime, Toriyama-san himself very often also shows/showed his respect for those who also work on Dragon Ball by even saying really really intriguing and complimenting stuff like" they even know more about it than I do". And when the original inventor of a product says that you really should let go of disrespecting the work of those who have the right to work on it. He is fine with what they do. And when he does his own thing, he does his own thing. It is just that simple. He works on the official product, they work on the official product. We on the other hand are just some random people who don't have the right to do crap for Dragon Ball and whose words are useless in that regard.

And that was just an example, but we can have more, like the Garlic junior arc, which is a sequel to the first movie, which is incompatible with the series itself, as the rest of the movies. Some fillers cause problems, that's how it is, so most people leave them out of canon.

And as mentioned, coherency does not matter in the slightest. It might interrupt the flow a bit but that's really it. The normal show is full of stuff and people just throw in any magical theories that they count as fact to justify that and not call it an inconcistency. That is what almost the entirety of this forum and other platforms consist of. Total waste-of-time-arguments. Which is exactly what is going to happen here again because you will once more disagree and ignore the rights of Toei and that you and I can't do anything about it and I will repeat myself and so on. So instead of doing the same thing I know from the last 13 years on the internet about more than just Dragon Ball and about every forum user that thinks he has something new to respond while it actually is the same stuff everyone says, I will end it exactly here.

That fillers are not supposed to keep coherency with the rest? They're supposed to share the same continutlity, so yes they are, and it's not that difficult, they just have to put some thought on what they write and keep track of the original source and the things they add too. They also should be careful not to compromise what Toriyama may write in the future, like when they made up how the saiyans looked before Toriyama established it. That leather costumes they gave them, which have been debunked. Or when they took the liberty of imagining how was Hell, which they did with Freeza, Cell and others hanging there with freedom, bullying the workers in there. Then Paikuhan defeating easily super perfect Cell, without even taking out his heavy clothes, and was shown as even or a little inferior to Goku in the Otherworld tournament. That whole power scale is wrong, Goku wouldn't defeat super perfect Cell so soon.

If you don't want to argument, don't do it. The fact is that you were speaking like not cosidering fillers is something crazy, which is not, because they are inconsistent with the rest so many times. What is crazy is not noticing that, when there are so many examples.

Back to the Kiezan, I won't consider the encounter with Cell as a prove, because it's filler, by the way, you said fillers don't have to keep coherency, you should be the first one not taking that scene seriously. As The Mikado said, they wrote that to make Cell look invincible in his perfect form. In this chapter, we don't even know what has happened with his Kiezan, because the writers didn't show it, we just saw an explosion. It's debatable what the Kiezan can cut or not, what isn't is that Krilin pretended to cut someone with it, as he pretended in the filler too, and is a terrible choice on this tournament. If he thought it wasn't gonna work, why use it? If he thought it was or wasn't sure, then worse.

[Whatever]

Who says Krillin needs to engage using fisticuffs? The objective of the tournament is to knock as many opponents out of bounds as possible. If these characters were actually using their abilities to their fullest extent they could have made a huge distance between themselves and the ring with Piccolo's materialisation sorcery, then proceed to have Krillin carve it into pieces using his Kienzan barrage. A very large amount of the competition would fall into the abyss from that tactic alone. Anyone else left standing would be limited in their ability to manoeuvre.

Dude,3 gods of destruction fought in that stage and it was still standing after they were done with their sparring match,how is Krillin gonna cut it?
Heck they even improved it after that.

[Kogu 87]

Do you guys think that krillin and piccolo are so poor with thier ki control, that they are only able to go all out with their techniques and not limit the impact ?

I don't see any issue with them using techniques with just enough power to push rather than pierce.

So Krillin used the butter knife setting?

Yes, absolutely.
He had to tone it down from his usual planet slicing kienzan.

[Xeogran]

I really hope not. GT is basically the biggest piece of garbage ever created (Any anime not just DB) minus SSJ4.

...

How is such disrespect even tolerated on Kanzenshuu? That's not even any kind of what you can call critique, towards a product which was still fairly enjoyable no less. But no, hardcore canon nerds must ruin everything to people who just want to watch something and have fun.

Also you for real with that? You have series like Fairy Tail where every villain gets defeated with friendship power, despite their hype. In comparision, Baby, Super #17, Omega all had long fights with strategies involved. But yeah, let's insult it because it will make you look cool in everyone's eyes.

[Saturnine]

Guys, have you ever stopped for a second and thought that his attack was dodged, maybe?

Also, it's not like this attack can only be used with the intention to kill. It can be used as a distraction, to make enemies focus on dodging it (which is vital to their continued well-being), so that when they're preoccupied, an incapacitating blow can be struck by someone else.

How is such disrespect even tolerated on Kanzenshuu? That's not even any kind of what you can call critique, towards a product which was still fairly enjoyable no less. But no, hardcore canon nerds must ruin everything to people who just want to watch something and have fun.

Kinda hard to have fun if in literally every episode something utterly shits on all the precepts of the world established in the manga. It's like a 5-year-old was trying to write a scientific paper on string theory, only having perfunctorily browsed one book on it and understanding very little of it.

Also, I think there are better ways of expressing your opinion of a series, but you have to admit - it is pretty cathartic