Dragon Ball Wikidiots

[Folken-sama]

Folken, you're really just pissing me off now.

"If you can't deal with someone else challenging your thoughts and opinions, this isn't the place for you."

If you use this definition, then the Budokai 3 "i-guide" is an OVA too.

Only if it contains new animation. Because in case you have forgotten, "OVA" relates to japanese animation. OVA is for Original Video A-NI-MA-TION.

According to Amazon's description, it looks more like an interactive DVD presenting the game, than a full new animation. More like the "Metal Gear Saga" bonus DVD which was not a "video game" but a "documentary".

Does this looks like animation to you ? http://www.iguides.net/dbz3/view.html

I can only see screencaps and material from the games, video interviews, texts. No animation. It's not an "anime".

't come back with "is it an hour long?"

This has nothing to do with it. You said the DBZ3 guide was the same thing as "Plan", so I ask you if there is 1 hour of animation, that's all.

I propose, here, that "Plan" is not an OVA.

No.

You don't understand.

An OVA is animation specifically created for the video market. "Plan" was first released on VHS in August 1993, and at that time the Playdia didn't even exist.

So "Plan" is an OVA. Even Toei and VegettoEX say so...So you have absolutely no right to contradict the people who made this animation.

It was always intended as a "visual" strategy guide

It is an OVA serving as a visual strategic guide.

Because what you fail to realise is that "Plan" is entirely new animation. It's not actual footage from the game, it's new animation specifically created for this video release.

, even though the system did not appear for a year and a half.

No because the VHS was released a year before the game and before the Playdia even existed, so Toei and Bandai made this OVA without thinking about a still non-existent console at that moment.
Then, it's when the Playdia was released that Bandai had the idea to recycle the OVA into a Digital Comics.

You can't make games when the console doesn't even exist.

What you fail to realize is that Toei can produce a 45 minutes long movie in only 3 months. Why would they need more than a year to produce a 1 hour long animation ?
You think they wouldn't have made the deadline ?

If you contest that it is an OVA

Toei, VegettoEX and me, we contest it, indeed. It will be difficult to prove all these people wrong just with your misconceptions about the animation lexicon...

If you contest that it is an OVA, then so is the Budokai 3 "i-Guide".

If you contest that it is "not an OVA"/"video game footage"/"visual guide"/"video game", then you are saying that DBZ isn't an anime, but a "visual guide" for the Budokai games.

Obviously it's not the case. So there's another reason why "Plan" is an OVA.

Besides, "strategic guide" doesn't exist. There's only 3 kind of animation : for TV, for the cinemas, for the video market. So Plan is an OVA and cannot be anything else.

Also, what you're saying makes absolutely no sense, because I have established that your I-guide is not new animation. Thus your comparison between an actual OVA and your interactive guide is nonsensical.

Please remain relevant.

[Olivier Hague]

IF it is an "Official" OVA then, why hasn't Funimation dubbed and released it yet?

Er... Where, in the definition of "OVA", did you see "is eventually dubbed and released by Funimation"? ^^;
And I can think of a pretty obvious reason: it's based on a game that wasn't released in the USA. So it would be pointless (or an extra on some DVD, if they were really nice).

Another example: lots of Japanese games based on Japanese comics and animated works were never released in the USA, right? More often than not, they weren't released because said Japanese comics/animated works weren't available in the USA either.
Does that mean these games weren't really "games"?
You can't change definitions around like that.

the reason why I don't accept it as an OVA is because it isn't an "Official" addition to the DBZ mythos.

And the movies are? Says who?
'Seems to me like you're being a bit subjective, here...

I just browsed Wiki, and it seems like they got Freeza's, Coola's, and Tullece's name correct (Instead of Freeza, Cooler, and Tullece).

Er... Who's to say which spellings are "correct" anyway?
I mean... I would argue that the "correct" spellings are actually "Freeza", "Tulece" and "Coora", myself...

I can watch the intro animation of a game that has not been released yet on the internet. So that animation should be considered an ONA (Original Net Animation - Gundam Seed C.E. 73 Stargazer is an example of ONA) because the original intention of that animation doesn't matter

Yes, it does. Who said otherwise?

you mean you can't make a game for a system that's not been released yet?

Haha. Welcome to several posts back.
No, it's just that you probably shouldn't assume that they produced that animation with the Playdia games in mind. Maybe they had no idea it would be recycled like that, back then. Who's to say?
I already explained why I think they probably didn't know. But if you have evidence that they knew, that's another matter altogether, naturally...

If you can't deal with someone else challenging your thoughts and opinions, this isn't the place for you.

Er... Well, he's providing valid arguments, isn't he? I would think that's a decent way of "dealing".
Not to mention he's not the one who called people "idiots", here...

If you use this definition, then the Budokai 3 "i-guide" is an OVA too.

No, because the animation was produced for the game, not for video.
Same thing for, say, "Top o Nerae 2!"/"Die Buster". They're OVAs, despite the fact they aired on TV before being released on video.

I propose, here, that "Plan" is not an OVA.

1) It fits with the definition of "OVA"
2) The Tôei says it is, and they're the ones who made the thing.
Compelling arguments, in my opinion.

[lost in thought]

Oh my dear Folken, how we're struggling to maintain a solid arguement against the i-Guide. I pitty you for continuing.

I am going to address a few things you've mentioned here, because a few of them are absurd.

No because the VHS was released a year before the game and before the Playdia even existed, so Toei and Bandai made this OVA without thinking about a still non-existent console at that moment.

So, by your understanding the console didn't exist, correct? If we go by that line of thought, then it should take just a few months for a console to be created and functional?

We should stop the presses, because in the last 10 years console developers have spent nearly 4 years making them. Starting as early as after release of their next console, they get schematics designed for improvement and functionality and moving headlong into design.

There have been final versions of Nintendo's Wii, and Sony's PS3 for quite a few months now, with developers making games for them. Even the XBox360 had stuff released over a month in advance of the actual console release.

Granted it isn't a year, but by your logic that would mean the PS3 and Wii don't exist. And no, you can't explain your way out of this with more semantics.

If you contest that it is "not an OVA"/"video game footage"/"visual guide"/"video game", then you are saying that DBZ isn't an anime, but a "visual guide" for the Budokai games.

No, because there is a difference here that goes beyond what you're stating that you convienently ignore to attempt to prove a floundering point. First, it's a televised program that only connects to the games via the story; other connects are done in the games via NEW ANIMATION. Even if they did recycle footage from the show it wouldn't make the show anything to the game because the show was televised and is indisputably a television series. While "Plan" isn't as cut and dry; to you maybe, but you've got a lot of skeptics to convince.

Now going back, you notice the words I used in the previous statement? They were "new" and "animation". So, if I am to stick to your arguement still, what praytell would you say that makes the i-Guide then if it features both tips on playing the game and new animation from the game that wasn't available anywhere else, and the videogame that the animaton is from was not going to be released for awhile after it? That's right, as NEW ANIMATION by your account, it would make it an OVA.

But, oh no, it's marketed as a visual strategy guide for the game, just like "Plan"; but... that would mean... oh no... it ISN'T an OVA, but a guide.
It does fit the description, but it's obviously something else entirely.

I rest my case.

Also, unless you're going to work your arguement through any further Folken, and stop using the same things over and over again as "proofs"; you aren't going to get anywhere. You want the skeptics to believe, and you've got to give us a good reason to believe with thought out reasoning as to why it is indisputable. Instead of what you have given us thus far which is full of holes and subjective. (PlayDia not even existing? Give me a break, it just didn't exist for the public at that time.)

[Olivier Hague]

So, by your understanding the console didn't exist, correct? If we go by that line of thought, then it should take just a few months for a console to be created and functional?

OK, simple question:
Do you really think the "Dragon Ball Z" Playdia games were in development for over a year?

it features both tips on playing the game and new animation from the game that wasn't available anywhere else

New animation from the game, indeed. It wasn't original animation.
See what I just did? "Original", as in "OVA".

it's marketed as a visual strategy guide for the game, just like "Plan"; but... that would mean... oh no... it ISN'T an OVA, but a guide.

Tôei still disagrees, and they made the thing in the first place. "Oh no."

[lost in thought]

So, by your understanding the console didn't exist, correct? If we go by that line of thought, then it should take just a few months for a console to be created and functional?

OK, simple question:
Do you really think the "Dragon Ball Z" Playdia games were in development for over a year?

Yes, yes I do. Because no matter how bad the game is, no matter how limited it is, it still takes some time to make. You can't just walk up to a computer and program an entire game in inside an hour.

It's whats known as reality in dev time.

it features both tips on playing the game and new animation from the game that wasn't available anywhere else[/qote]
New animation from the game, indeed. It wasn't original animation. See what I just did? "Original", as in "OVA".

Yeah, you just walked in on something. By technicality it is ORIGINAL since each fight wont be played exactly like a fight from the series, thereby making differences, and actions, unique to the game....

it's marketed as a visual strategy guide for the game, just like "Plan"; but... that would mean... oh no... it ISN'T an OVA, but a guide.

Tôei still disagrees, and they made the thing in the first place.[/quote]And when has Toei ever been remotely reliable for things?

It isn't the first time something like this is genericly, or abnormally mislabeled. Look at graphic novels, they aren't novels-- just a condensed form of original serial comic books.

Things aren't always black and white like you seem to think.

[Olivier Hague]

Do you really think the "Dragon Ball Z" Playdia games were in development for over a year?

Yes, yes I do.

...
I got nothing.
Except maybe: "Well, I don't. At all."

Because no matter how bad the game is, no matter how limited it is, it still takes some time to make.

When it's even less elaborate than most erotic games, it doesn't take that much time, really.

Yeah, you just walked in on something. By technicality it is ORIGINAL since each fight wont be played exactly like a fight from the series, thereby making differences, and actions, unique to the game....

Wait, I thought you were referring to the opening animation of the game.
Don't tell me you really want to argue that in-game footage is "animation". Please don't tell me that.

It isn't the first time something like this is genericly, or abnormally mislabeled.

I'm still waiting for you to prove it was.

Original? Check.
Video? Check.
Animation? Check.
What's the problem, again? It's based on a game? Well, so are the "Ys" OVAs, for example. That doesn't change what they are.

[Folken-sama]

So, by your understanding the console didn't exist, correct? If we go by that line of thought, then it should take just a few months for a console to be created and functional?

Don't be absurd, you acting as if the Playdia was the PS3...

Seriously, "4 years"

There have been final versions of Nintendo's Wii, and Sony's PS3 for quite a few months now, with developers making games for them. Even the XBox360 had stuff released over a month in advance of the actual console release.

As I said :
"Everyone knows that the Playdia was so big a project that they needed to make a full animation and release it more than one year before.
Everyone knows that the Playdia was so much a big project that it was sold only in Japan, that it was a complete failure and nobody heard about it, that there barely was 20 games released on it... "

Granted it isn't a year, but by your logic that would mean the PS3 and Wii don't exist. And no, you can't explain your way out of this with more semantics.

But everybody knows here that the Playdia was the 1st next-gen, even better than the PS4.

You want the truth ? The Playdia was so advanced, it took Bandai nearly 40 years to build it, because it contains extraterrestrail technology salvaged from the Roswell UFO.

First, it's a televised program that only connects to the games via the story; other connects are done in the games via NEW ANIMATION. Even if they did recycle footage from the show it wouldn't make the show anything to the game because the show was televised and is indisputably a television series.

That's the same for Plan. It is an OVA which as been recycled as video games, and nothing esle.

While "Plan" isn't as cut and dry; to you maybe, but you've got a lot of skeptics to convince.

Plan is entirely new animation first released on VHS = OVA.

Besides, Toei officially labels it as "OVA".

but you've got a lot of skeptics to convince

And there are still skeptics who think Tullece is Goku's brother, or who are convinced that DBAF exists...That doesn't change the fact that they aren't brothers, and that DBAF is just an hoax.

Now going back, you notice the words I used in the previous statement? They were "new" and "animation". So, if I am to stick to your arguement still, what praytell would you say that makes the i-Guide then if it features both tips on playing the game and new animation from the game that wasn't available anywhere else, and the videogame that the animaton is from was not going to be released for awhile after it? That's right, as NEW ANIMATION by your account, it would make it an OVA.

No.

You don't understand.

"New animation" doesn't mean "animation taken from the game".

New animation is new animation. As was "Plan" back in 1993.

Besides, the I-guide was released the same day as the game. You see, there's really nothing in common with Plan.

So please, be relevant.

But, oh no, it's marketed as a visual strategy guide for the game, just like "Plan"

I think you've missed something...Toei marketed it as an OVA...

but... that would mean... oh no... it ISN'T an OVA, but a guide.

But ... that would mean... oh no... lost in thought thinks he knows better than Toei, the company who made the animation ???

[Folken-sama]

Yes, yes I do. Because no matter how bad the game is, no matter how limited it is, it still takes some time to make. You can't just walk up to a computer and program an entire game in inside an hour.

Wow, a full year to digitize a 1 hour animation and to add some icons for the player to select...

If Konami worked like that, MGS4 wouldn't be released before 2015...

Yeah, you just walked in on something. By technicality it is ORIGINAL since each fight wont be played exactly like a fight from the series, thereby making differences, and actions, unique to the game....

So it's not original animation, then ?

And when has Toei ever been remotely reliable for things?

Since it's Toei who make the DBZ anime.

They know better than you what they are releasing.

By the say, what are you saying ? It's nonsensical...So according to you, the DBZ movies aren't movies ? You're also saying that VegettoEX is not "remotely reliable for things" ?

I don't think you really know what this is about...

[MajinVejitaXV]

Jeez guys, why is this such a heated debate? And why are people bringing up some of the poorest counterarguements I've seen since DBZOA?

Some people are really grasping at straws, and for what? To disavow that 'Plan' is an OVA? Wake up people. Toei made some shitty things, 'Plan' being one of them. It was as canon as the worst of the movies, and should be recognized as such. Trying to argue that 2+2=5 to avoid that is just sad.

As far as the PlayDia game goes, it wouldn't have taken a team hardly any time to program. It's essentially a multi-branching video disc that chooses the next chapter based on your choices. If you're saying that took over a year to develop, than doing the menus for DVD's (not the visuals, just the actual pointers) must take over a year as well.

Hell, didn't they just do something similar for the DVD to that stupid 'Final Destination 3' movie? Where you choose who dies at intervals and the movie plays accordingly? You're trying to tell me that took over a year? Come on guys ;p

It's an OVA. Stop arguing, and just face it. The more you argue that it's not, against Toei themselves and even common sense, the more you embarass yourselves.

-Corey

[Jerseymilk]

It's an OVA. Stop arguing, and just face it. The more you argue that it's not, against Toei themselves and even common sense, the more you embarass yourselves.

Personally, I also think this is a ridiculous debate that's just going in circles, but I will also point out that I think the one embarassing himself the most here isn't the people arguing against it being an OAV, it's Folken-sama. Honestly, I don't think you actually read your own posts, otherwise you'd realize how much you come off sounding like a patronizing jack-ass. Your evidence and arguments actually get lost in your attitude. Ever heard the expression "you can catch more flies with honey"? Grow-up and try and show a little more respect towards others. You actually make me ashamed to be a part of this forum. I'm starting to feel like I'm at DBZOA or MFG....*shudders*

[Folken-sama]

Personally, I also think this is a ridiculous debate that's just going in circles, but I will also point out that I think the one embarassing himself the most here isn't the people arguing against it being an OAV, it's Folken-sama.

Well, that's one opinion...

That's not mine. I came on this topic originally because someone called me a moron and a idiot for saying it was an OVA.
Then I explained why I said it was an OVA.

Then everybody came to attack me because I dared to prove my point...

The more they answered, the more they became ridiculous with their delusional arguments.

Grow-up and try and show a little more respect towards others

You don't seem to know what is "respect".

Saying nonsense all the day, just because they don't want to admit it's an OVA, and insulting me, that is not what I would call "respect".

[lost in thought]

Jeez guys, why is this such a heated debate? And why are people bringing up some of the poorest counterarguements I've seen since DBZOA?

Some people are really grasping at straws, and for what? To disavow that 'Plan' is an OVA? Wake up people. Toei made some shitty things, 'Plan' being one of them. It was as canon as the worst of the movies, and should be recognized as such. Trying to argue that 2+2=5 to avoid that is just sad.

I am actually not trying to fight whether it is or isn't an OVA, I am here to give this arguement more color, and bring up a side of it that hadn't been mentioned; as well, I was also getting kind of annoyed by his singular statements that he thinks, in his little world, clearly explain something that isn't black and white.
Whether or not "Plan" is an OVA doesn't bother me, I just came along for the ride to continue the 'debate' rather than letting it continue to degenerate into a piss fight.

As far as the PlayDia game goes, it wouldn't have taken a team hardly any time to program. It's essentially a multi-branching video disc that chooses the next chapter based on your choices. If you're saying that took over a year to develop, than doing the menus for DVD's (not the visuals, just the actual pointers) must take over a year as well.

That's an assumption. The problem is, you're just thinking abstract to what you see.
Videogame designers don't just make the pointers to do the actions, they have to build the game from the ground up, starting with the engine that will process the commands, and each handler that leads to a display, how choices react, what the controls do, what music is played and how it runs through the game. There's much, much more than simply programming a menu, and even Final Destination 3 isn't a good comparison for it.

PlayDia was just there to run what the game itself was to an executable program.

As I said though, with the previous in mind, no matter how short, limited, and crappy a game is, it still takes a long time to make. Even if you don't bug test it.

Wow, a full year to digitize a 1 hour animation and to add some icons for the player to select...

If Konami worked like that, MGS4 wouldn't be released before 2015...

Neither of you quite obviously have any idea what it takes to actually program a game from scratch.

By the say, what are you saying ? It's nonsensical...So according to you, the DBZ movies aren't movies ? You're also saying that VegettoEX is not "remotely reliable for things" ?

I don't think you really know what this is about...

Nice spin, you're running out of ammunition to debate with though.

Don't be absurd, you acting as if the Playdia was the PS3...

Seriously, "4 years"

No, I am not. I am saying quite plainly that unlike what you think in your little world, consoles actually do take more than a few hours to build, and the exact same for actual games. Clearly reasoning is lost on you, but the point is the unit was most likely in development for a considerable amount of time before that. At shortest, and quickest mock-together, it couldn't have taken less than two years, and even delays or problems with the hardware could have caused the machines dev time to increase. Whether or not it was successful that does not make it exempt from development time.
(Also, when I refer to "development time" in this instance, I don't just mean the time in which it took to build a working unit, but also the time in which was taken to research pre-existing parts, design, and then go ahead and build the working model. This isn't some 45 minute jaunt down at your RadioShack there; for companies its a lot larger in scope.)

As I said :
"Everyone knows that the Playdia was so big a project that they needed to make a full animation and release it more than one year before.
Everyone knows that the Playdia was so much a big project that it was sold only in Japan, that it was a complete failure and nobody heard about it, that there barely was 20 games released on it... "

But everybody knows here that the Playdia was the 1st next-gen, even better than the PS4.

You want the truth ? The Playdia was so advanced, it took Bandai nearly 40 years to build it, because it contains extraterrestrail technology salvaged from the Roswell UFO.

Now you're getting sarcastic, when I've attempted to be rather civil in this debate, for the sake of debate; lets cut the theatrics right here, mm'kay?

Okay, I am going to establish what ruined this debate: Folken has no room for thought other than his own, and even in an area he's clearly unfamiliar with goes on as if he does know.

There's no point to it. I thought that my interjection could have steered things to a better debate rather than flaming, but I guess I was wrong; sad part is, I don't care what it is either way, and don't care to turn this into a hissy fit. There's no point in continuing a one-sided debate when the opposition doesn't have any room for your arguement, and can't even bring up new points; instead knocking them down at every turn, even when some of them make good buffer for the discussion at hand.

For end reference: I am willing to see that "Plan" is an OVA, and frankly it wouldn't bother me either way, as my intent in this thread was to build upon the alternate point of view, but you can't even take them on a matter-- so it's you and Toei who are correct without any exceptions --this isn't how you prove a point, this is how you prove yourself an egotistical jackass.

Edit: -->

Personally, I also think this is a ridiculous debate that's just going in circles, but I will also point out that I think the one embarassing himself the most here isn't the people arguing against it being an OAV, it's Folken-sama. Honestly, I don't think you actually read your own posts, otherwise you'd realize how much you come off sounding like a patronizing jack-ass.

This is going to make me look like a prick (yay) but I told you so.
</--

Also, I did show a valid point earlier in generic labeling. Has it never occured to you that sometimes things that don't fit into specific categories are often put into one its most like, just to categorize it? That kind of thing isn't just myth.

Anyway, yeah, too many circles just as Amy said-- it's getting very tiring. And I'll admit that this reply is no where near civil, but with all the sarcastic replies you made, I think you about deserve some of that back at you.

Edit 2: -->

You don't seem to know what is "respect".

Saying nonsense all the day, just because they don't want to admit it's an OVA, and insulting me, that is not what I would call "respect".

Oh bullshit. She knows about it far more than you do. It's true that you were called a moron, but you carried that wound through out this thread and attacked everyones points without valid reason. Thanks Mr. Dictionary, but you've proven yourself a bigger horses ass than me; and that's hard to do, but it takes one to know one, I s'pose.
</--

Edit 3: --> I hope this thread gets locked right quick, this is a fucking disgrace. </--

[VegettoEX]

Locked for forum goers' inability to follow rules. Over. And over. And over.

I *love* some of the points and analogies being brought up on SO MANY SIDES of the conversation; unfortunately, no-one's paying attention to anyone else (especially my kind requests for everyone to be civil with each other!). It's all just circle-jerking with one's own opinion that may or may not be shared by others... coupled with inane, lengthy quote-and-respond attacks that do nother to further anyone's argument, including the argument of the poster making the attacks.

Let's try again some other time, ne?