Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

[Planetnamek]

So you think ALL video reviews of fictional media on Youtube is "cashing in?", yeah no you are so full of it, also they never claimed to be non-profit. There is no reason why youtubers should HAVE to pay companies that created the piece of media just because they use footage from it in a video, if that was true video essays would not be a thing and the world would be much worse off.

At this point you are very much sounding like one of those "grrr you kids get off my lawn!" types.

Not that I'm taking a side against TFS here (because I love them and are sad for no Boo arc), but why shouldn't a Youtuber have to pay royalty fees to use the characters and story of an established IP they're using an overabundance of footage from? Just out of curiosity, but if everyone else has to pay licensing fees to use someone else's IP legally, why should Youtubers be exempt from this rule? Because channels are usually started with no budget? For the record, not everyone agrees that parodies should fall under "Fair Use," and in many countries, including Japan, it doesn't (hence why Toei kept taking them down and would continue if they continued into the Boo Arc).

Also, video essays would still exist, there would just be far fewer who just talk over clips of the movies/shows playing in the background.

Japan's stance is incredibly draconian and everyone sane agrees that TFS's material most definitely falls under fair use. Youtube is based in the U.S. anyways so Japan's copyright laws don't matter.

[Zeon_Grunt]

So you think ALL video reviews of fictional media on Youtube is "cashing in?", yeah no you are so full of it, also they never claimed to be non-profit. There is no reason why youtubers should HAVE to pay companies that created the piece of media just because they use footage from it in a video, if that was true video essays would not be a thing and the world would be much worse off.

At this point you are very much sounding like one of those "grrr you kids get off my lawn!" types.

Not that I'm taking a side against TFS here (because I love them and are sad for no Boo arc), but why shouldn't a Youtuber have to pay royalty fees to use the characters and story of an established IP they're using an overabundance of footage from? Just out of curiosity, but if everyone else has to pay licensing fees to use someone else's IP legally, why should Youtubers be exempt from this rule? Because channels are usually started with no budget? For the record, not everyone agrees that parodies should fall under "Fair Use," and in many countries, including Japan, it doesn't (hence why Toei kept taking them down and would continue if they continued into the Boo Arc).

Also, video essays would still exist, there would just be far fewer who just talk over clips of the movies/shows playing in the background.

Japan's stance is incredibly draconian and everyone sane agrees that TFS's material most definitely falls under fair use. Youtube is based in the U.S. anyways so Japan's copyright laws don't matter.

The problem is "fair use" doesn't exist everywhere. Regardless of whatever country the site is hosted in, Japanese companies still have to pursue "threats" to their IP just as diligently as if the sites were from Japan. Youtube is accessible in Japan, and therefore they have to pursue copyright laws as they are in Japan. Ignoring copyright laws and failing to properly defend your IP can lead to a company losing exclusive ownership of an IP, as DC learned back in the day when they nearly lost Superman over the Captain Marvel debacle.

[Planetnamek]

Not that I'm taking a side against TFS here (because I love them and are sad for no Boo arc), but why shouldn't a Youtuber have to pay royalty fees to use the characters and story of an established IP they're using an overabundance of footage from? Just out of curiosity, but if everyone else has to pay licensing fees to use someone else's IP legally, why should Youtubers be exempt from this rule? Because channels are usually started with no budget? For the record, not everyone agrees that parodies should fall under "Fair Use," and in many countries, including Japan, it doesn't (hence why Toei kept taking them down and would continue if they continued into the Boo Arc).

Also, video essays would still exist, there would just be far fewer who just talk over clips of the movies/shows playing in the background.

Japan's stance is incredibly draconian and everyone sane agrees that TFS's material most definitely falls under fair use. Youtube is based in the U.S. anyways so Japan's copyright laws don't matter.

The problem is "fair use" doesn't exist everywhere. Regardless of whatever country the site is hosted in, Japanese companies still have to pursue "threats" to their IP just as diligently as if the sites were from Japan. Youtube is accessible in Japan, and therefore they have to pursue copyright laws as they are in Japan. Ignoring copyright laws and failing to properly defend your IP can lead to a company losing exclusive ownership of an IP, as DC learned back in the day when they nearly lost Superman over the Captain Marvel debacle.

Yeah i'm reminded of when the publishers of Persona 5 decided to be complete morons and try to strike down any channel with footage of the game even though it was free publicity for them and would lead to more game sales.

The whole "losing copyright if you don't pursue every threat to it" thing is a U.S. only thing, Japan does not have the same stipulations.

[Zeon_Grunt]

The whole "losing copyright if you don't pursue every threat to it" thing is a U.S. only thing, Japan does not have the same stipulations.

That's interesting, thanks for clearing that bit up. Either way, it's just a different approach to what does and does not constitute a "fair use."

[VegettoEX]

and everyone sane agrees that TFS's material most definitely falls under fair use.

I... don't think you've run the numbers on this...?!

(Or, if you have, no-one knows what the heck they're talking about!)

Anyone who thinks TeamFourStar's DBZ Abridged could even remotely use "fair use" as a defense when challenged in court (because that's what fair use is: a reactive defense, not a proactive protection) has seemingly not ever read a single bit of text about it outside their own little anime bubble.

There's no way Abridged falls under that. At all. Like, in any realm of reality. Ever. In any way. It would fail, and it would fail hard. It's immediately knocked out on two out of the four general guidelines, likely fails the third, and there would be some really fucking interesting numbers brought forth on the fourth that I for one would love to see the spin on.

(This coming as someone who likes it and thinks our copyright system is fundamentally broken. You can both think that and understand the reality of what Abridged actually is... or in this case, actually isn't.)

I wrote a bit about it before over here in this thread (that post plus several follow-ups), but I'm worried that I have to be the one explaining this to folks. I wish I had some other resources at the ready, but I wasn't prepared to write this yet simultaneously felt the need to get something down before this thread went any further...

[Planetnamek]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I think TFS absolutely could win in court over this, but I understand them not wanting to hedge their bets on it.

[WittyUsername]

Everything I’ve read about fair use, especially how it pertains to YouTube, would indicate that it’s one giant mess. It’s no wonder the guys at TFS are no longer abridging the show. I’m surprised they managed to carry on with it for as long as they did.

[Rory]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I think TFS absolutely could win in court over this, but I understand them not wanting to hedge their bets on it.

Yeah but try to take in the information being given to you, instead of just 'agreeing to disagree'. The implication here is that you have reason to think they'd win in court and aren't sharing it, as opposed to you just liking their content and not wanting to accept someone has a strong counter-point.
It's OK to both like TFS's content and accept that they aren't legally in the right, these two thoughts can exist in your head at the same time.

[Planetnamek]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I think TFS absolutely could win in court over this, but I understand them not wanting to hedge their bets on it.

Yeah but try to take in the information being given to you, instead of just 'agreeing to disagree'. The implication here is that you have reason to think they'd win in court and aren't sharing it, as opposed to you just liking their content and not wanting to accept someone has a strong counter-point.
It's OK to both like TFS's content and accept that they aren't legally in the right, these two thoughts can exist in your head at the same time.

Oh i've taken it in and the information suggests that if that really is true that Fair Use does not protect TFS, then Fair Use itself needs a major overhaul.

[Michsi]

First of all, today is (apparently) International Fan Work Day so shout out to one of the most successful works done by a group of fans.

As far as the fair use debate, yeaaah, it most likely wouldn't go down well for them.The biggest offender would be that they tampered with and modified actual footage of the show and huge chunks of it no less. The parody argument is also shaky because for a good while now it's been closer to a retelling of the story with some added jokes and visual effects. In a way it basically became its own show. It started taking itself way more seriously by the end.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

I'm legit surprised that TFS didn't get slammed with lawsuits or have copyright infringement claims filed against them at any point, especially considering how long they carried on producing Abridged and using so much footage from Z itself.

[ABED]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I think TFS absolutely could win in court over this, but I understand them not wanting to hedge their bets on it.

Yeah but try to take in the information being given to you, instead of just 'agreeing to disagree'. The implication here is that you have reason to think they'd win in court and aren't sharing it, as opposed to you just liking their content and not wanting to accept someone has a strong counter-point.
It's OK to both like TFS's content and accept that they aren't legally in the right, these two thoughts can exist in your head at the same time.

Oh i've taken it in and the information suggests that if that really is true that Fair Use does not protect TFS, then Fair Use itself needs a major overhaul.

Why? Just because you like TFS's work?

[WittyUsername]

I’m not especially crazy about Team Four Star’s work, but I definitely think that Fair Use and the YouTube copyright system are in need of an overhaul.

[ABED]

A good argument can be made that they do need some work, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Why? Just because you like TFS's work?

Because TFS is clearly a parody. One began when there was little official material coming out. If TFS isn't protected by fair use than it'll be a repeat of the Marvin Gaye v Blurred Lines lawsuit. Intellectual Property rights are supposed to protect the financial interests of original creators, not allow corporations and trusts to shove their dick in everyone's face.

These fights are entirely a problem of the modern era too. Fifty years ago no one cared if you referenced their work in yours or reproduced bits of it in your own creations. Look at Dungeons and Dragons. It's a commercial product filled to brim with references to the pulp fantasy of writers like Moorecock and Vance. And yet neither of those men held it against Gygax or accused him of stealing their intellectual property or demandied he shut down TSR.

[WittyUsername]

A good argument can be made that they do need some work, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Has anyone actually suggested getting rid of copyright laws entirely?

[ABED]

A good argument can be made that they do need some work, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Has anyone actually suggested getting rid of copyright laws entirely?

No one here as far as I know, but I have read PLENTY of arguments from even libertarians saying they should be done away with entirely.

Intellectual Property rights are supposed to protect the financial interests of original creators, not allow corporations and trusts to shove their dick in everyone's face.

That's not really true, but okay, got it - individuals good, corporations bad. It doesn't matter if it's a big company or one person, people have a right to protect their IP, but not in perpetuity.

[Planetnamek]

Yeah but try to take in the information being given to you, instead of just 'agreeing to disagree'. The implication here is that you have reason to think they'd win in court and aren't sharing it, as opposed to you just liking their content and not wanting to accept someone has a strong counter-point.
It's OK to both like TFS's content and accept that they aren't legally in the right, these two thoughts can exist in your head at the same time.

Oh i've taken it in and the information suggests that if that really is true that Fair Use does not protect TFS, then Fair Use itself needs a major overhaul.

Why? Just because you like TFS's work?

Uh no, so people on YT in general aren't constantly dealing with the sword of Damocles that is copyright law hanging over their heads.

You seriously don't think Fair Use needs any improvement at all? OK then

Never once said anything about throwing out copyright law entirely BTW.

Why? Just because you like TFS's work?

Because TFS is clearly a parody. One began when there was little official material coming out. If TFS isn't protected by fair use than it'll be a repeat of the Marvin Gaye v Blurred Lines lawsuit. Intellectual Property rights are supposed to protect the financial interests of original creators, not allow corporations and trusts to shove their dick in everyone's face.

These fights are entirely a problem of the modern era too. Fifty years ago no one cared if you referenced their work in yours or reproduced bits of it in your own creations. Look at Dungeons and Dragons. It's a commercial product filled to brim with references to the pulp fantasy of writers like Moorecock and Vance. And yet neither of those men held it against Gygax or accused him of stealing their intellectual property or demandied he shut down TSR.

Well said, couldn't have put it better myself.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Intellectual Property rights are supposed to protect the financial interests of original creators, not allow corporations and trusts to shove their dick in everyone's face.

That's not really true, but okay, got it - individuals good, corporations bad. It doesn't matter if it's a big company or one person, people have a right to protect their IP, but not in perpetuity.

How many of the late 80s, early 90s animators are still at TOEI? How many of them are actually losing money because of some youtube parody?

This isn't individual good, corporation bad. It's "how can a group justify invoking copyright when they themselves had no role in creating the original product?"

[ABED]

Intellectual Property rights are supposed to protect the financial interests of original creators, not allow corporations and trusts to shove their dick in everyone's face.

That's not really true, but okay, got it - individuals good, corporations bad. It doesn't matter if it's a big company or one person, people have a right to protect their IP, but not in perpetuity.

How many of the late 80s, early 90s animators are still at TOEI? How many of them are actually losing money because of some youtube parody?

This isn't individual good, corporation bad. It's "how can a group justify invoking copyright when they themselves had no role in creating the original product?"

They own it. IP is property and like any other piece of property is transferable.

You seriously don't think Fair Use needs any improvement at all? OK then

Big straw man argument there pal. And some have said Abridged is often not a parody. If that's the case, then this isn't a black and white matter.