So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

[JewyB]

But what if it never receives an anime adaption? Most people do not read the manga, especially casual fans, much less Super's manga, and if the anime skips over him it'll just be an obscure story only manga fans will know about.

Obviously a TV show will always be more mainstream than a comic in general, so if it's never adapted it'll be just something only the hardcore fans know about.

Flawed logic unfortunately. Not many people have watched Dragon Ball, it doesn't stop Dragon Ball from being canon. If the anime continues and Moro isn't animated, it is still canon in the manga continuity.

It doesn't matter if people know about it or watch it, that doesn't define canonicity.

It also doesn't work the other way, many people know GT exists, but GT isn't canon.

[BagetaSama]

Nah. The Moro arc is incredible, the garlic Jr arc isn't even worth watching.

[BWri]

I think the problem is we still don't know if this Moro arc is really "canon" or not. Yes it's part of the manga adaption, but for all we know if/when the anime comes back they could ignore Moro entirely and just have Goku's new forms mastered in the anime in a completely different storyline.

It literally starts in the same chapter as the finale of the ToP. There's no way to ignore one if you acknowledge the other. If its not canon then the ending of the ToP isn't canon. And if that's the case, we still don't know who won the ToP!

This isn't like stuff we KNOW is non-canon like the original DBZ movies, now GT, or the weird videogame stuff and Heroes.....it's a official manga adaption of Super that now has a new story but we don't know if it's part of the official continuity.

I honestly can't recognize the entire Moro arc as official canon unless it receives an anime adaption. Right now it's about on the level of the DBZ movies or GT.

It's a new era. You can't think of canon how you used to think of canon in this era of DB. Super has two, sometimes three canons now: Anime, Manga, and Movie. The first two movies are Z movies technically, but they also form alternate events to Super's anime and manga. The Broly movie also alters events from the anime, probably the manga as well so it may even introduce a fourth continuity if you don't think its tied into the previous movies or manga. There's another continuity of the RoF promo manga which may be separate from the Official DBS manga.

All that to say, yes things are confusing, but its also easy. Anime = canon & manga = canon. Anime canon = anime continuity. Manga canon = manga continuity.

If you consume both and pay attention then you may get an idea of what's GODS CANON, the Toriyama note-napkin ... all due respect to Toriyama-san.

[Dragon Wukong]

At this point I'll take a moment to say that if "canon" is defined within the original manga and filler in the original Dragon Ball anime is decidedly "non-canon", then that would make the DBS anime "non-canon". The DBS anime is a sequel to the DBZ anime, as several plot points in the DBS anime hinge upon DBZ anime filler. This doesn't make those DBZ anime filler plot points canonical, as those events still never happened in the manga.

The DBS manga doesn't contradict any DB manga elements or hinge upon any DBZ filler for plot (though it does occasionally reference background or world details that were mentioned outside of the original manga, though said elements don't contradict what happened in the manga.) This, as well as Shueisha referring the DBS manga as the canonical sequel to Dragon Ball would suggest to me that the DBS manga is at least now most certainly considered the proper sequel to the manga.

Anyhow, arguing over the canonicity of this arc because it might not be in the anime when there's currently no DBS anime in sight is baffling to me. Right now the manga is the only DBS we have. This arc is a clear cornerstone for Goku's journey as he's finally gained complete control over Ultra Instinct. Toriyama is still very clearly involved in this arc, even if the villain and story is mostly Toyotaro's now. The latest chapter showed this, with a lot of panels/pages being corrected by him, and quite possibly dialogue as well. So "Toriyama isn't involved" is certainly not an argument.

Unfortunately, I think the reality is that a lot of people don't want to accept that Toyotaro might slowlt be given the reigns over the franchise, and there's a chance he may actually continue to be the main influence/writing for Dragon Ball in the future. And that's fine, there will likely still be other continuities like with Heroes and GT. And ultimately the anime versions will be what get used in other forms of media such as video games and advertisements (likely due to licensing reasons) so it's really pick and choose what you want to see as far as Dragon Ball goes. But I don't think it's good to use personal dissatisfaction to come to one's own conclusion of what is or isn't "canonical".

[precita]

I think people view the franchise as two or three major different continuities then. Super does reference some DBZ filler, maybe even moreso in the future if it comes back.

Also if the Moro arc does get an anime adaption, I expect a lot of things to be changed or expanded on. Look how different the manga TOP is than the anime version, characters win/loss different fights even if the outcome is the same. So if the Moro arc gets an anime adaption, it's probably going to be a little different than in the manga rather than following it 1:1 panel to panel.

[Kinokima]

I am not sure what people mean most people don’t read the manga. The sales for it in Japan and abroad shows that is very much not true. And that is just sales of the volume version it doesn’t count who is reading it on the Shounen Jump app or in V-Jump in Japan. Regardless of the fact it’s definitely not just “hardcore” fans who read the Super manga.

[Dragon Wukong]

I am not sure what people mean most people don’t read the manga. The sales for it in Japan and abroad shows that is very much not true. And that is just sales of the volume version it doesn’t count who is reading it on the Shounen Jump app or in V-Jump in Japan. Regardless of the fact it’s definitely not just “hardcore” fans who read the Super manga.

Most DB fans don't actually read the manga. Yes it's obviously incredibly popular and sales reflect that, but compared to the amount of consumers that only watch the anime it's still a rather small fraction believe it or not.

[precita]

Yeah, the manga is an obscure market in the west, even moreso Super's manga. Most average Dragonball fans have never heard of "Moro."

If the arc never gets an anime adaption it'll most likely remain this obscure story only hardcore Dragonball fans know about.

[Kinokima]

I am not sure what people mean most people don’t read the manga. The sales for it in Japan and abroad shows that is very much not true. And that is just sales of the volume version it doesn’t count who is reading it on the Shounen Jump app or in V-Jump in Japan. Regardless of the fact it’s definitely not just “hardcore” fans who read the Super manga.

Most DB fans don't actually read the manga. Yes it's obviously incredibly popular and sales reflect that, but compared to the amount of consumers that only watch the anime it's still a rather small fraction believe it or not.

I mean how do you even determine how many people read or don’t read the manga except by sales data and in the anime case ratings data?

Social media isn’t really a good gauge because only hardcore fans really get involved in debates and discussions.

I mean there is honestly not any proof that less people read the manga. And as I said even sales aren’t any indication of who reads the manga because that is only counting who is buying the full volumes not who is just reading the chapter release each month.


A weekly anime also in general just garners more hype, discussion and merchandise but that doesn’t necessarily mean casual fans aren’t reading the manga.

[Dragon Wukong]

I mean how do you even determine how many people read or don’t read the manga except by sales data and in the anime case ratings data?

Social media isn’t really a good gauge because only hardcore fans really get involved in debates and discussions.

I mean there is honestly not any proof that less people read the manga. And as I said even sales aren’t any indication of who reads the manga because that is only counting who is buying the full volumes not who is just reading the chapter release each month.

A weekly anime also in general just garners more hype, discussion and merchandise but that doesn’t necessarily mean casual fans aren’t reading the manga.

I mean on one hand, it's the very nature of the medium. More people watch television shows than read comics.

On a monthly basis, upon release the DBS chapters tend to reach around 500,000 or so viewers per language on a given week, based on the MangaPlus stats. DBS episode premiers could reach up to almost a million viewers depending on the episode for a given region. That's effectively double the viewers based off those stats alone. Long-term viewership and taking into account the entire world I'm sure the gap actually gets bigger.

[Kinokima]

I mean how do you even determine how many people read or don’t read the manga except by sales data and in the anime case ratings data?

Social media isn’t really a good gauge because only hardcore fans really get involved in debates and discussions.

I mean there is honestly not any proof that less people read the manga. And as I said even sales aren’t any indication of who reads the manga because that is only counting who is buying the full volumes not who is just reading the chapter release each month.

A weekly anime also in general just garners more hype, discussion and merchandise but that doesn’t necessarily mean casual fans aren’t reading the manga.

I mean on one hand, it's the very nature of the medium. More people watch television shows than read comics.

On a monthly basis, upon release the DBS chapters tend to reach around 500,000 or so viewers per language on a given week, based on the MangaPlus stats. DBS episode premiers could reach up to almost a million viewers depending on the episode for a given region. That's effectively double the viewers based off those stats alone. Long-term viewership and taking into account the entire world I'm sure the gap actually gets bigger

Just want to point out this is very much the opposite in Japan. In Japan it’s very common to read manga but watching anime is considered for kids and Otaku. Now obviously Dragon Ball is more mainstream then your average anime in Japan but saying less people read comics is not necessarily true. And while the International market is more important for Dragon Ball then it is for many other anime titles, Japan is certainly not thinking well more people watch anime so that’s our main product in regards to their home market. There are also other markets where comics are bigger than anime like France.

Also Mangaplus is not a legitimate site and certainly not the only place or even main place people read Dragon Ball Super.


Edit: My mistake Mangaplus is legitimate was confusing it with another site.

[Dragon Wukong]

Just want to point out this is very much the opposite in Japan. In Japan it’s very common to read manga but watching anime is considered for kids and Otaku. Now obviously Dragon Ball is more mainstream then your average anime in Japan but saying less people read comics is not necessarily true. And while the International market is more important for Dragon Ball then it is for many other anime titles, Japan is certainly not thinking well more people watch anime so that’s our main product in regards to their home market. There are also other markets where comics are bigger than anime like France.

Also Mangaplus is not a legitimate site and certainly not the only place or even main place people read Dragon Ball Super.

Edit: My mistake Mangaplus is legitimate was confusing it with another site.

I was about to say, MangaPlus is the official place for most people to read the latest chapters outside Japan. So those stats would likely reflect most of the people reading DBS.

Anyhow, I can't speak as far as the stats in Japan go, since those are effectively tied to just volume sales (which are just really OK as far as a monthly manga goes, being somewhat on par with others such as Blue Exorcist) and VJump sales/subscriptions, which aren't inherently tied to Dragon Ball. It certainly seems as though recognition of DBS in Japan is more so tied toward the anime, but that's effectively just social commentary with no numbers to back it up. I know the episodes had incredible ratings there as well though.

But the numbers elsewhere don't really lie. A far, far larger amount of people will recognize Dragon Ball Super almost solely for the anime. I myself don't wish that was the case, but it'd be ridiculous not to recognize that. Even without the numbers backing it up, I've shown a variety of DB fans in my area the scene of Goku using a hakai on Zamasu, only to be met with confusion or disbelief. And similar commentary will oft-show on social media such as Twitter regarding such scenes whenever they gain traction here or there.

[JewyB]

It seems weird that people are discussing exposure as though its relevant to canonicity. It'd be like saying that before the hobbit films existed, they didn't count in the Lord Of The Rings continuity because more people had seen the films. It makes no sense.

So even if only 4 people read the manga monthly, it wouldnt have any bearing on whether or not it exists within the canon of the series.

[Kinokima]

Just want to point out this is very much the opposite in Japan. In Japan it’s very common to read manga but watching anime is considered for kids and Otaku. Now obviously Dragon Ball is more mainstream then your average anime in Japan but saying less people read comics is not necessarily true. And while the International market is more important for Dragon Ball then it is for many other anime titles, Japan is certainly not thinking well more people watch anime so that’s our main product in regards to their home market. There are also other markets where comics are bigger than anime like France.

Also Mangaplus is not a legitimate site and certainly not the only place or even main place people read Dragon Ball Super.

Edit: My mistake Mangaplus is legitimate was confusing it with another site.

I was about to say, MangaPlus is the official place for most people to read the latest chapters outside Japan. So those stats would likely reflect most of the people reading DBS.

Anyhow, I can't speak as far as the stats in Japan go, since those are effectively tied to just volume sales (which are just really OK as far as a monthly manga goes, being somewhat on par with others such as Blue Exorcist) and VJump sales/subscriptions, which aren't inherently tied to Dragon Ball. It certainly seems as though recognition of DBS in Japan is more so tied toward the anime, but that's effectively just social commentary with no numbers to back it up. I know the episodes had incredible ratings there as well though.

But the numbers elsewhere don't really lie. A far, far larger amount of people will recognize Dragon Ball Super almost solely for the anime. I myself don't wish that was the case, but it'd be ridiculous not to recognize that. Even without the numbers backing it up, I've shown a variety of DB fans in my area the scene of Goku using a hakai on Zamasu, only to be met with confusion or disbelief. And similar commentary will oft-show on social media such as Twitter regarding such scenes whenever they gain traction here or there.

The Dragon Ball Super ratings in Japan were not incredible at all. They weren’t bad but pretty typical for the time period they were on but didn’t break any records or anything and they actually went down a bit as the series went on.

This really says nothing though. Less people are watching TV now. And quite honestly I would say it is the about the same as the manga sales. The Volume sales are fine but not anything incredible but V-Jump also isn’t Shounen Jump.

From what I’ve seen though it just seems to be circumstantial evidence that way more people watch the anime compared to who read the manga.

[Dragon Wukong]

The Dragon Ball Super ratings in Japan were not incredible at all. They weren’t bad but pretty typical for the time period they were on but didn’t break any records or anything and they actually went down a bit as the series went on.

This really says nothing though. Less people are watching TV now. And quite honestly I would say it is the about the same as the manga sales. The Volume sales are fine but not anything incredible but V-Jump also isn’t Shounen Jump.

From what I’ve seen though it just seems to be circumstantial evidence that way more people watch the anime compared to who read the manga.

Well I supposed I could've been wrong with Japan's ratings, but I certainly know that in Latin America was well as the USA the ratings were great.

Anyhow, only the stuff regarding Japan and my personal experience would be circumstantial. The other evidence, i.e. MangaPlus views, Toonami ratings, heck, views on youtube, all otherwise very tangibly seem to suggest that it's indeed the case that the anime had garnered several times the amount of viewers that the manga has managed to reach. I invite you to put forward anything suggesting otherwise.

Though, as said previously, that has no impact on canonicity, I just think the effect of that needs to be recognized on how Dragon Ball Super is viewed outside the official media.

As I said, I think it's a shame more people haven't read it.

[precita]

I think it might as well be the Garlic Jr. saga of Super now.

At least the Garlic Jr. saga was only 9 episodes and made sense in the time it aired (besides Krillin being surprised Goku had a son), before Freeza came back.

[SupremeKai25]

At this point I would say it's obvious that this is the "Cell arc" of Super. Moro-73 even looks like Perfect Cell's twin brother.

[precita]

At this point I would say it's obvious that this is the "Cell arc" of Super. Moro-73 even looks like Perfect Cell's twin brother.

But the Cell arc was a Toriyama continuation and the stuff we got then was still new ideas (time travel, new Saiyan forms, Cell's entire character and role), this Moro arc is a retread of everything we've seen before.

Say what you will, but back in DBZ each new saga brought something new and different to the series that hadn't been done before.