Does English Dragon Ball need higher profile actors?

[Planetnamek]

I've heard some say the same thing about the Tenchi Muyo dub, and yeah I can see the flaws in it, but ultimately I still like it and honestly I can't help but feel like the imperfections are what make these 90s and 2000s dubs memorable to begin with.

Honestly, other than Tenchi himself sounding like Kermit the Frog I always thought the acting in the dub was really good.

. For example I just wasn't feeling Viz's take on Sailor Moon, don't get me wrong i'm glad to finally have Sailor Stars in English but for the rest of the reasons I tend to prefer DiC and Cloverway's versions,

The Viz dub just feels soo artificial like the actors are practically reading stage directions instead of acting. And considering how much talent the Viz dub has (pretty much the whose who of California based dubbing talent) I can’t help but feel it’s an issue with the voice director.

Exactly, that artificial voice-acting straight-up ruined Nephrite's death scene in the episode "A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing" with how flat and monotone Molly's VA was, I remember watching that episode on video as a kid and really being impacted by it, even if people like to make fun of Molly's Jersey-girl accent on the DiC dub, you can't deny that her VA really nailed that scene with her heartbreak, whereas I felt zero emotion watching the Viz version.

It's definitely an issue with voice-direction as Veronica Taylor is one of my favorite VAs, so this should've been a slam dunk, but i'm feeling none of the warmth she put into Ash for Pokemon or her many other roles. I had similar issues with Kai's voice-direction, it wasn't as glaring as Viz's, but I definitely found it distracting at times(I really wasn't feeling Monica Rial's take on Bulma or Colleen Clinkenbeard's performance as young Gohan and Goku)

[Soppa Saia People]

Exactly, that artificial voice-acting straight-up ruined Nephrite's death scene in the episode "A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing" with how flat and monotone Molly's VA was, I remember watching that episode on video as a kid and really being impacted by it, even if people like to make fun of Molly's Jersey-girl accent on the DiC dub, you can't deny that her VA really nailed that scene with her heartbreak, whereas I felt zero emotion watching the Viz version.

i mean tbh, it was probably more so that the naru and nephorite stuff was done pretty badly, and is probably the weakest part of season 1, and you being a (i assume adult) noticing that more and not feeling as strongly about it as you did when you were a kid, rather then it being a acting issue. i saw the japanese version of that scene when i was 14 and i didn't feel anything and i cried at pretty much ajybsad scene in sailor moon, be it manga, 90s, crystal, or whatever (manga stars destroyed me).

[Cure Dragon 255]

I gotta vouch for the DIC version of Nephrites death. Its extremely powerful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtbnh4rBzpU

[Planetnamek]

I gotta vouch for the DIC version of Nephrites death. Its extremely powerful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtbnh4rBzpU

Still gives me the feels. Saw another example recently of an edited English dub having better voice-acting then the uncut dub-DiC's Knights of the Zodiac compared to ADV's straight-to-DVD Saint Seiya. I just saw the episode where it's revealed that Marin is actually Seiya's long-lost sister Seika and two Silver Knights are trying to capture her, and man whoever voiced Seiya in the KOTZ version did a spectacular job conveying his range of emotions in that scene, from shock and confusion to pure rage while fighting the knights, oh man I got chills. Meanwhile the uncut version has much more flat and unremarkable voice-acting, no wonder that version of the show never aired on TV.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I think I might have figured out why Viz didnt work. Maybe its because there is no emotion in the Japanese version of that particular scene. The DiC dub just wasnt afraid of taking liberties. How about comparing scenes that were censored or botched by the DiC dub? Like The Sailor Deaths? Or Koan/Catzi being redeemed? There is plenty of emotion there.

[MasenkoHA]

I think I might have figured out why Viz didnt work. Maybe its because there is no emotion in the Japanese version of that particular scene.

Irrelevant. It’s not like Studiopolis’s voice director intentionally said “Hey be underwhelming because that’s how Japan did it”

The DiC dub just wasnt afraid of taking liberties. How about comparing scenes that were censored or botched by the DiC dub? Like The Sailor Deaths? Or Koan/Catzi being redeemed? There is plenty of emotion there.

The ViZ version of the Sailor deaths wasn’t that great either tbh fans were just happy to finally see those scenes dubbed but they were just as mechanical as the rest of the dub. Obviously the DiC dub gutted most of the emotional stuff for content concerns but Terri Hawkes actually does a real good job with what she’s able to work with. And even the girl who voiced Sailor Mars (can’t remember her name and am too lazy to google for five seconds) got to show some emotional chops in the DiC chopfest (specifically the scene where she tells Sailor Moon she has to fight on her own)

The ViZ scene of Koan/Catzi’s mental breakdown was miles better than the DiC version but the DiC version had an inappropriate music choice and gave the character a chainsmoker voice (ala Funimation circa 1999) which killed most of the emotion with again Sailor Mars voice actor having to carry any available weight

[Planetnamek]

I think I might have figured out why Viz didnt work. Maybe its because there is no emotion in the Japanese version of that particular scene.

Irrelevant. It’s not like Studiopolis’s voice director intentionally said “Hey be underwhelming because that’s how Japan did it”

The DiC dub just wasnt afraid of taking liberties. How about comparing scenes that were censored or botched by the DiC dub? Like The Sailor Deaths? Or Koan/Catzi being redeemed? There is plenty of emotion there.

The ViZ version of the Sailor deaths wasn’t that great either tbh fans were just happy to finally see those scenes dubbed but they were just as mechanical as the rest of the dub. Obviously the DiC dub gutted most of the emotional stuff for content concerns but Terri Hawkes actually does a real good job with what she’s able to work with. And even the girl who voiced Sailor Mars (can’t remember her name and am too lazy to google for five seconds) got to show some emotional chops in the DiC chopfest (specifically the scene where she tells Sailor Moon she has to fight on her own)

The ViZ scene of Koan/Catzi’s mental breakdown was miles better than the DiC version but the DiC version had an inappropriate music choice and gave the character a chainsmoker voice (ala Funimation circa 1999) which killed most of the emotion with again Sailor Mars voice actor having to carry any available weight

Katie Griffin voiced Mars and I too think she did really good, I also quite liked Susan Roman as Jupiter(who was the only VA from the DiC dub to stay on for the Cloverway dub).

[Cure Dragon 255]

I think the Viz dub is good. I like it. And its not just nostalgia (I didnt grow up with an English dub) or hate of the DiC dub. I love the DiC dub.

[Super Sonic]

The ViZ scene of Koan/Catzi’s mental breakdown was miles better than the DiC version but the DiC version had an inappropriate music choice and gave the character a chainsmoker voice (ala Funimation circa 1999) which killed most of the emotion with again Sailor Mars voice actor having to carry any available weight

Catzi's voice was better in her last appearance in the episode when Sapphire died. Not sure if she was recast, or lady went in a different direction, but she sounded different and better. Heck, the last eps of R including the Wicked Lady episodes were considered some of the better eps of the dub. And the music changes outside the songs that most folks liked even if they didn't like the dub, could be hit or miss at times.

And with what you said about Terri Hawkes is that she personalized the role to the point when some folks say they consider Serena Tsukino a different person from Usagi Tsukino, they don't mean it as an insult. She just made the role her own.

[MasenkoHA]

And the music changes outside the songs that most folks liked even if they didn't like the dub, could be hit or miss at times.

The DiC music while not nearly as good as the Japanese score still held its own pretty well and was usually used effectively (so you know the opposite of pretty much any replacement score Funimation shat out for Z) but the music in the Catzi scene was just....in the Japanese version we get a very dramatic all hope is lost music cue in the DiC dub we get generic “oh no danger danger” music. Compounded with the bad acting and just...no

And with what you said about Terri Hawkes is that she personalized the role to the point when some folks say they consider Serena Tsukino a different person from Usagi Tsukino, they don't mean it as an insult. She just made the role her own.

Terri Hawkes Serena was clearly inspired more by Cher from Clueless than anything.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

And the music changes outside the songs that most folks liked even if they didn't like the dub, could be hit or miss at times.

The DiC music while not nearly as good as the Japanese score still held its own pretty well and was usually used effectively (so you know the opposite of pretty much any replacement score Funimation shat out for Z) but the music in the Catzi scene was just....in the Japanese version we get a very dramatic all hope is lost music cue in the DiC dub we get generic “oh no danger danger” music. Compounded with the bad acting and just...no

And with what you said about Terri Hawkes is that she personalized the role to the point when some folks say they consider Serena Tsukino a different person from Usagi Tsukino, they don't mean it as an insult. She just made the role her own.

Terri Hawkes Serena was clearly inspired more by Cher from Clueless than anything.

I found Tracey Moore and Terri Hawke's takes on Usagi/Serena to both be good in their own respective and different ways in SM and R, now Linda Ballentyne on the other hand...Hoo boy she was a huge step down at first in nearly every way from the former two because her version was so awkwardly nasal sounding and unfitting for a teenage character and it had a small degree of improvement over the course of S and SuperS's dubs.

[Super Sonic]

Never saw all of Super S, but heard guys say she got better over the course as she stopped trying to imitate Terri Hawkes. Will say Linda Ballantyne was nice when I met her, and she gave me a hug. Though speaking of her doing roles done by other actors somewhat, was at a panel where she and Susan Roman were having and I asked the latter to talk in Champ Bear's voice, and she can still do it. Linda Ballantyne then said in a masculine voice that she also voiced Champ Bear at one point.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Never saw all of Super S, but heard guys say she got better over the course as she stopped trying to imitate Terri Hawkes. Will say Linda Ballantyne was nice when I met her, and she gave me a hug. Though speaking of her doing roles done by other actors somewhat, was at a panel where she and Susan Roman were having and I asked the latter to talk in Champ Bear's voice, and she can still do it. Linda Ballantyne then said in a masculine voice that she also voiced Champ Bear at one point.

I believe it was early in her time as Usagi/Serena in Sailor Moon S's dub that was the worst part of it given she was trying as you said to imitate Hawke's performance, then later on in S and definitely by SuperS she'd gradually gotten better although it has been ages since i last saw the old Cloverway Inc dubs of the latter two.

[Planetnamek]

The ViZ scene of Koan/Catzi’s mental breakdown was miles better than the DiC version but the DiC version had an inappropriate music choice and gave the character a chainsmoker voice (ala Funimation circa 1999) which killed most of the emotion with again Sailor Mars voice actor having to carry any available weight

Catzi's voice was better in her last appearance in the episode when Sapphire died. Not sure if she was recast, or lady went in a different direction, but she sounded different and better. Heck, the last eps of R including the Wicked Lady episodes were considered some of the better eps of the dub. And the music changes outside the songs that most folks liked even if they didn't like the dub, could be hit or miss at times.

And with what you said about Terri Hawkes is that she personalized the role to the point when some folks say they consider Serena Tsukino a different person from Usagi Tsukino, they don't mean it as an insult. She just made the role her own.

I was always more partial to Tracey Moore, but Hawkes eventually did grow on me quite a bit.

As for Linda, yeah her early performances in the Cloverway dub were a definite step down from Moore and Hawkes, the voice-acting in general for Cloverway was pretty rough-going in the early days(i'd argue even moreso then season 3 of DBZ was) and took some serious getting used to.

Never saw all of Super S, but heard guys say she got better over the course as she stopped trying to imitate Terri Hawkes. Will say Linda Ballantyne was nice when I met her, and she gave me a hug. Though speaking of her doing roles done by other actors somewhat, was at a panel where she and Susan Roman were having and I asked the latter to talk in Champ Bear's voice, and she can still do it. Linda Ballantyne then said in a masculine voice that she also voiced Champ Bear at one point.

I believe it was early in her time as Usagi/Serena in Sailor Moon S's dub that was the worst part of it given she was trying as you said to imitate Hawke's performance, then later on in S and definitely by SuperS she'd gradually gotten better although it has been ages since i last saw the old Cloverway Inc dubs of the latter two.

I think part of that might've been because Cloverway's voice-director was French(I heard about that on SMUncensored) and there's definitely going to be some things lost in translation if you're taking orders from someone who is fluent in a completely different language then you are, so that would explain the attempts at trying to copy the DiC performances.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

The ViZ scene of Koan/Catzi’s mental breakdown was miles better than the DiC version but the DiC version had an inappropriate music choice and gave the character a chainsmoker voice (ala Funimation circa 1999) which killed most of the emotion with again Sailor Mars voice actor having to carry any available weight

Catzi's voice was better in her last appearance in the episode when Sapphire died. Not sure if she was recast, or lady went in a different direction, but she sounded different and better. Heck, the last eps of R including the Wicked Lady episodes were considered some of the better eps of the dub. And the music changes outside the songs that most folks liked even if they didn't like the dub, could be hit or miss at times.

And with what you said about Terri Hawkes is that she personalized the role to the point when some folks say they consider Serena Tsukino a different person from Usagi Tsukino, they don't mean it as an insult. She just made the role her own.

I was always more partial to Tracey Moore, but Hawkes eventually did grow on me quite a bit.

As for Linda, yeah her early performances in the Cloverway dub were a definite step down from Moore and Hawkes, the voice-acting in general for Cloverway was pretty rough-going in the early days(i'd argue even moreso then season 3 of DBZ was) and took some serious getting used to.

Never saw all of Super S, but heard guys say she got better over the course as she stopped trying to imitate Terri Hawkes. Will say Linda Ballantyne was nice when I met her, and she gave me a hug. Though speaking of her doing roles done by other actors somewhat, was at a panel where she and Susan Roman were having and I asked the latter to talk in Champ Bear's voice, and she can still do it. Linda Ballantyne then said in a masculine voice that she also voiced Champ Bear at one point.

I believe it was early in her time as Usagi/Serena in Sailor Moon S's dub that was the worst part of it given she was trying as you said to imitate Hawke's performance, then later on in S and definitely by SuperS she'd gradually gotten better although it has been ages since i last saw the old Cloverway Inc dubs of the latter two.

I think part of that might've been because Cloverway's voice-director was French(I heard about that on SMUncensored) and there's definitely going to be some things lost in translation if you're taking orders from someone who is fluent in a completely different language then you are, so that would explain the attempts at trying to copy the DiC performances.

That sounds to some degree like the situation in those European countries like the U.K. which got the infamous "Big Green" dubs of the DBZ movies, considering the VA's on that were primarily native English speakers while AB Groupe is (or was) a French production company and they worked with French scripts that appeared to have been poorly translated and also given basically no direction at all which led to them having the notorious reputation for questionable acting with laughably unfitting voices on certain characters and the like.

Surely there was a language barrier involved in both cases, which could explain why things like this happens in dub productions especially in foreign countries.

[MasenkoHA]

I think part of that might've been because Cloverway's voice-director was French(I heard about that on SMUncensored) and there's definitely going to be some things lost in translation if you're taking orders from someone who is fluent in a completely different language then you are, so that would explain the attempts at trying to copy the DiC performances.

I would take anything said by Sailor Moon Uncensored claims with a grain of salt. They had a habit of saying things that weren’t true like claiming Toei hired a new composer for every new season of Sailor Moon (it was the same guy for all 5 seasons) or that the show’s success on Toonami is what convinced DiC to dub the rest of Sailor Moon R (which is impossible since those episodes aired in Canada about 6 months before a single episode of Sailor Moon aired on Toonami)

The “have the new actors sound as close to the original actors as possible and hope the brats don’t notice” is the same mentality Funimation had when they dumped the Vancouver cast for the Texas actors.

[Planetnamek]

I think part of that might've been because Cloverway's voice-director was French(I heard about that on SMUncensored) and there's definitely going to be some things lost in translation if you're taking orders from someone who is fluent in a completely different language then you are, so that would explain the attempts at trying to copy the DiC performances.

I would take anything said by Sailor Moon Uncensored claims with a grain of salt. They had a habit of saying things that weren’t true like claiming Toei hired a new composer for every new season of Sailor Moon (it was the same guy for all 5 seasons) or that the show’s success on Toonami is what convinced DiC to dub the rest of Sailor Moon R (which is impossible since those episodes aired in Canada about 6 months before a single episode of Sailor Moon aired on Toonami)

The “have the new actors sound as close to the original actors as possible and hope the brats don’t notice” is the same mentality Funimation had when they dumped the Vancouver cast for the Texas actors.

Oh don't I know it, but in this case it was actually someone else that sent them a message that claimed Cloverway's voice-director was French, so this seems a bit more plausible.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Actually, a book has been written, by the people who worked on the classic dub and some of the stuff Planetnamek has said is indeed true. He probably heard it from that book and not SMUncensored.

The original DiC/Cloverway English dub of Sailor Moon is the only English anime dub with an entire book written about its production, titled Sailor Moon Reflections.
The show was licensed by DiC following a lengthy bidding war with Toon Makers who wanted to remake the show entirely (producing Toon Makers Sailor Moon). Once they did finally get it, they didn't know what to do with it since they mistakenly assumed they were only distributing it in North America and that an English-language adaptation was already produced. Due to their lack of knowledge of Japanese animation, Carl Macek note was originally hired to write the adaptation, but was fired early in production due to Creative Differences with Andy Heyward (DiC's then-CEO). Fred Ladd (a veteran of English anime dubs, with experience going back to Astro Boy and Kimba the White Lion) was then hired.
On the recording side of things, Optimum Productions, a Toronto-based dubbing company, was selected to record the dub, however they ran into issues early on. Tracey Moore, the original ADR director and voice actress for Sailor Moon, quit after 13 episodes due to stressful Creative Differences and was replaced with Roland Parliament as director and Terri Hawkes as voice actress (also, Rino Romano quit his role of Tuxedo Mask around this time as well). Production was so far behind schedule, Hawkes began recording the night she was cast and ended up recording entire episodes in one take. Parliament worked long hours into the night, often slept at the studio, and became ill during production. He also had to deal with angry executives with DiC, who complained about the actors' Canadian accents and told him that the show was "not for fucking Canadians. It's for fucking Americans."
DiC themselves were also at the mercy of Toei in Japan, who had to approve of each and every change made, often without consulting the series' creator, Naoko Takeuchi. The episodes were on the air only a couple weeks after being recorded, with 65 episodes being dubbed in three months.
It was canceled on a cliffhanger and couldn't continue at all until 1997 when YTV in Canada and Irwin Toy paid to fund more episodes to give it some closure, with Pioneer funding dubs for the movies. For these, Parliament was fired over Creative Differences within Optimum and replaced with John Stocker, who was also fired later on. The voices for Sailor Mars and Tuxedo Mask were also recast (though Mars later returned), and Fred Ladd was replaced with writers at Optimum.
S and SuperS had it worst though. DiC declined to license more episodes, so Cloverway (Toei's then-US branch) stepped in after YTV and Cartoon Network ordered more episodes. Cloverway gave Optimum almost complete creative freedom as long as 77 episodes were recorded in four months. This resulted in many voice actors not returning (including Terri Hawkes, who went on maternity leave) and replaced with poor substitutes. Production was so rushed, that as many as 11 episodes were recorded in each 4-hour session with the voice actors recording each line only twice, with the better take used. In addition, the new voice director, Nicole Thuault, could not speak English (only French), and relied on an interpreter to communicate with the actors. The writers at Optimum all worked independently without any kind of "bible" on what the attack names, transformation phrases, etc. were supposed to be, resulting in them changing many times throughout these episodes. Fans could usually tell which writer wrote which episode based on the terminology used.

[ABED]

What does this have to do with DB?

[Cure Dragon 255]

Nuthing lol.

But it does show that Sailor Moon is much like DB in many ways. Down to having a flawed, divise yet still much loved first dub and a more updated one for better or worse.