How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

[VegettoEX]

Whistle heard loud and fucking clear.

Not happening here, my dude. Don’t even bother trying again.

Hypersayian, you’re 1000% done here with the disingenuous rhetoric (not banned; this is a free warning; happy to provide this wonderful learning moment for you!), and everyone else can ease up a bit.

[Hypersayian]

Anakin didn't struggle for years to learn how to fly a ship he's never even seen and destroy a trade federation battleship as a nine year-old. If you can excuse that, you can excuse Rey being able to defeat a few dudes and lift some rocks.

You could excuse Reys master pilot skills with the Millenium Falcon - NOT her asspull force abilities. If you really think that what Anakin did in TPM is even remotely comparable with what Marey Sue did in TFA/TLJ you are a fucking stupid idiot.

"Oh Anakin did train for a decade under a Jedi Master to master his force abilities - but he blew up a spaceship when he was 9. - This is absolutely comparable to Rey flying the Millenium Falcon like a pro and without any training mastering force abilities and performing feates greater than anything we saw in the previous two trilogies. Dont mind that others needed years to do it - she does it in DAYS."

I never said "nothing matters". If you think "power scaling doesn't matter" and "absolutely nothing matters" are the same statement, doesn't that imply power scaling is all that matters? Why don't you just stare at an actual fucking scale for fun if you're going to be that shallow?

You said that nothing matters so stop lying you piece of shit.

Well no, because if those movies had been good stories, they would be good. Shocking, I know.

Well yeah - because you need consistency for a good story - if fucking idiots like you open their mounts and swallow every piece of inconsistent shit the entertainment industry shits out - no wonder the stories arent good - they cant be without consistency.

There's also not much wrong with their power scaling. Vin Diesel is a solid level-5 in every single movie. But if you think they're bad anyway, doesn't that mean power scaling is not all that matters?

Consistency applies to many things - you are apparently to stupid to understand that.

Something they did not for TLJ because of the hype/woke messages/ bribing.

Fweeet fweeet fweeet! We got a live one, everybody.

You can stick that whistle up your ass idiot. TLJ is a woke/pc infested toxic inconsistent mess of a movie.

[Hypersayian]

Whistle heard loud and fucking clear.

Not happening here, my dude. Don’t even bother trying again.

Hypersayian, you’re 1000% done here with the disingenuous rhetoric (not banned; this is a free warning; happy to provide this wonderful learning moment for you!), and everyone else can ease up a bit.

Yeah go fuck yourself you fucking idiot! I am not welcome here anyway - so ban me. If it saves me the task of debating Idiots like this Shady guy and an arrogant full of himself piece of shit like you - thats a win.

Byyyyyyyyy

[super michael]

@Hypersayian let me give you some advice, it isn't a good idea to insult anyone and start disrespecting members for having a different opinion. Here another advice it isn't a good idea to lose your temper so easy.

From what I have seen members normally are respectful towards each other and the moderator/admin gets along with the members here. I don't see trolls in Kanzenshuu.

[PurestEvil]

b

Don't pick fights with others you rabid dog. Teach yourself some manners when arguing with others (ESPECIALLY THE ADMIN!!!)

[super michael]

The offscreen training isn't the bad part, it is the ordinary training that is hinted that I find it bad. Krillin is so strong, how would a gym make Krillin push his limits. For Mr Buu his training partner isn't even super human and doesn't even know anything about ki, how would he be able to grant Buu a huge boost in power. Mr Satan fights like a normal humans and not like a super human.
In the anime C17 says he trains, so I guess that is fine.

Because people who can use ki and people who can't are fundamentally different by Dragon Ball's rules. And even mild exercise still actually improves your body. Characters don't all have to train the way Vegeta does to get stronger, and in Krillin's case, a lot of it was getting him back to the levels he already achieved, not pushing some wild new boundaries. Buu is probably not unlike Freeza, having any training at all and toning his body up a bit totally changed things on the face of it. It's not about forcing yourself to an absolute limit. You're more likely to just hurt yourself doing that, which as we've seen, Vegeta does over and over.

There the ROSAT which Dende upgraded in DBS so there is no limit to amount of time anyone can use, but somehow that place to reserved exclusively for Goku and Vegeta only. The reason why no one used the ROSAT in DBZ was because a person can only use it for 2 years in their whole life, once they used it up they can't use it again or they stay stuck in the ROSAT forever.
We know the Z fighters can handheld more than earth gravity.

Again, this is really kind of sidestepping what actually happens to a point that may as well be explained away so it doesn't matter. The major time that anyone would even have the time and knowledge to use the time chamber is before the tournament of power, and sure, you can maybe make the argument that someone could have gotten stronger if they used the chamber first, but the show tells us that everyone was at the top of their game entering the TOP. They would win and lose the same fights they won and lost either way. You can say it's a little sloppy to not even acknowledge it, I suppose I might agree, but that's not the same as a powerscaling debate.

My problem was that when I hear they did ordinary training, somehow that was enough for extraordinary gains. While before it required extraordinary training to make extraordinary gains.

I think both of these statements require objective judgement of "ordinary" and "extraordinary" training and gains, which nobody here is at liberty to make. The only time Krillin ever trained the way Goku did was back with Roshi in the first Tenkaichi Budokai. The training everyone went through in the Saiyan arc (sans filler) doesn't seem so unbelievably grueling, but it got everyone past the level Goku was when he died, which is crazy. But we don't care, because that's the level they needed to be to fight Saibamen and to struggle against Nappa and Vegeta.

Gohan battled crimes as Great Saiyan and had 1 months to train before the tournament, but his power was inferior compared to his Cell Game self. Gohan trained with another Super Saiyan.

I guess your right about the results being the same, even if they used the ROSAT. I guess power scale wouldn't change at all.

Climbing Korin tower was a huge feat, since that requires a lot of stamina just to get to the top. I guess I consider extraordinary training things that would be impossible for normal humans to do but instead those that broke normal human boundarys to get to Super Human level.

We only saw a bit of what the humans did in Kami Lookout but we know Kami and Mr Popo training is hard.

[Hugo Boss]

Honestly sad about how bad powerscalling discussions can turn out these days. I hope this doesn’t repel people that really want to contribute to the theme, not just retorting their self-made rules.

[Adamant]

LoganForkHands73 In the Marvel movie of Ultron we

Spoiler:

saw Captain America was able to move the hammer a bit, but then he stopped trying.

In End Game Captain America was

Spoiler:

able to lift the hammer and Thor said that he knew it. That means Thor knew he could lift the hammer from before.

To lift Thor hammer one must be worthy, that is the seal that Oden put on Thor hammer. If the user isn't worthy then they can't lift the hammer. Where was it stated that Thor hammer weights thousand-tonne?

Although in End Game

Spoiler:

there shouldn't be any seal, since Oden put a seal when Thor risked his planet going to war. The hammer is from the past when Thor mother was alive so the seal shouldn't be on it.

I know. But my point is he goes from barely moving it an inch to being able to use it in battle almost as well as Thor, complete with all the lightning powers n' all that jazz. I'm not even critiquing it, just pointing out that it's an example of the MCU's own powerscaling issues that don't hamper the stories and character beats being told.

I think Mjolnir was taken from Thor: TDW timeframe, so the seal would probably still be in place.

Cap being able to lift Thor's hammer is straight from the comics. This is not "powerscaling", nor is it something the "MCU" is doing.

[VegettoEX]

If you're not a moderator or administrator, please don't attempt to moderate. It's a bad look and it clutters things up. There's a useful (and helpful for us!) tool that you can use to report posts. It's a little button right there alongside each and every post on the forum.

We're all good here now! Carry on.

[SupremeKai25]

You know the funny thing is that people aren't even saying Z has worst power-scaling/power-jumping than Super, they're just saying that Z also had power-scaling problems, so if you complain about Super power-scaling problems while ignoring Z's, you're being a hypocrite.

Which is indeed true, the show itself Dragon Ball Z became self-aware of its power creep and power-scaling problems.Vegeta's reaction to Goten and Trunks powering up to Super Saiyan as children was literally "WHAT? WHEN DID THE LEGENDARY SUPER SAIYAN FORM BECAME ATTAINABLE BY MERE KIDS? IS THIS A SUPER SAIYAN BARGAINING SALE?"

So if you want to bash Super for its power-scaling problems you are indeed allowed to, but please keep in mind and acknowledge that Z also had a lot of power-scaling problems and was self-aware of said problems. Otherwise if you want to have your cake and eat it too you're just being hypocritical. It's like saying "Bob is a better person than Tom because Tom cheated 10 times while Bob cheated only once", okay Bob still cheated. Same thing here. Just because Super might have more problems than Z doesn't mean that Z wasn't inconsistent from a power-scaling perspective.

[super michael]

You know the funny thing is that people aren't even saying Z has worst power-scaling/power-jumping than Super, they're just saying that Z also had power-scaling problems, so if you complain about Super power-scaling problems while ignoring Z's, you're being a hypocrite.

Which is indeed true, the show itself Dragon Ball Z became self-aware of its power creep and power-scaling problems.Vegeta's reaction to Goten and Trunks powering up to Super Saiyan as children was literally "WHAT? WHEN DID THE LEGENDARY SUPER SAIYAN FORM BECAME ATTAINABLE BY MERE KIDS? IS THIS A SUPER SAIYAN BARGAINING SALE?"

So if you want to bash Super for its power-scaling problems you are indeed allowed to, but please keep in mind and acknowledge that Z also had a lot of power-scaling problems and was self-aware of said problems. Otherwise if you want to have your cake and eat it too you're just being hypocritical. It's like saying "Bob is a better person than Tom because Tom cheated 10 times while Bob cheated only once", okay Bob still cheated. Same thing here. Just because Super might have more problems than Z doesn't mean that Z wasn't inconsistent from a power-scaling perspective.

In DBZ we know that Hybrid Saiyans has greater power and potential than pure blooded Saiyans, whats more is that Goten and Trunks were born when their fathers had Super Saiyan unlocked. Basically Goku and Vegeta were the first parents to have kids when they had Super Saiyan.

Plus we know Goten and Trunks trained together, which Gohan thinks that if they continue like that they could surpass him in the future. Plus don't forget Goten trained with Chi Chi to sharpen his hand to hand skills, while Trunks trained with Vegeta in the Gravity Room.
The bigger question is how did no one notice their high power level and their Super Saiyan form.

The Universe 6 Saiyan they unlocked Super Saiyan 2 and Legendary Super Saiyan without mastering their Super Saiyan 1 form. Universe 7 Saiyan had to train to get rid of Super Saiyan 1 strain, drain and nervous feeling. They had to train to make it feel natural like their base form.

[Grimlock]

It should probably be said that Cabba, Caulifla and Kafla only have Super Saiyan 2 in the anime continuity. If it bothers you that much, you may want to stick with the manga continuity, then. Where they didn't show it, as far as I'm concerned.

[Hugo Boss]

Besides, U6 Saiyans got used very quickly to SS due to discovering the tingly-back feeling factor that helped activate and deactivate the form. This is something Super Saiyans do subconsciously in the anime continuity and Cabba and Caulifla figured out this shortcut. Add to the fact that U6 Saiyans evolved past the need of having a tail, so they are naturally much stronger than U7 ones.

[Shaddy]

Anger

Uh, in order -- Rey had already flown the falcon before, I never said "nothing matters", only powerscaling, "consistency" only matters in terms of being consistently good (something powerscaling is at best unrelated to and at worst actively harmful to), and haha "wokeness" glad you're banned.

Gohan battled crimes as Great Saiyan and had 1 months to train before the tournament, but his power was inferior compared to his Cell Game self. Gohan trained with another Super Saiyan.

But a plot point point is that Gohan slacked on his training -- and probably did even in the leadup to the tournament. Training with Goten probably wouldn't make much difference, Super Saiyan isn't an EXP boost, that's why Goku usually trains without it, and since Goten is like six or seven, they probably weren't fighting that hard. It was just a tournament where they were all expected to be stronger than the strongest people alive anyway.

Climbing Korin tower was a huge feat, since that requires a lot of stamina just to get to the top. I guess I consider extraordinary training things that would be impossible for normal humans to do but instead those that broke normal human boundarys to get to Super Human level.

We don't have a real stat on how tall Korin tower is, or how Goku's stamina would compare to, for example, a human adult. It took Roshi 3 years to climb the thing despite his older form being ostensibly stronger than Goku, yet Goku did it in a day and Tao only took a few hours. Exactly where the line is drawn can't be so exact.

We only saw a bit of what the humans did in Kami Lookout but we know Kami and Mr Popo training is hard.

Hard by whose standards? Does "hard" mean "superhuman"?

I know a lot of these responses sound pretty annoying, but it's because I'm trying to illustrate how fungible this stuff is. The reason powerscaling doesn't matter to me is because with each supposed "mistake", anyone including the show can fudge an explanation, and when an explanation is all it takes, then it's likely that whatever issues you have with the fights or pacing of Super is likely something other than power scaling when it's compared with Z, which by most metrics, has a lot of the same inconsistencies. They are not internally consistent with each other, but that's not really a problem, since Dragon Ball has always made up the rules as it goes.

[super michael]

But a plot point point is that Gohan slacked on his training -- and probably did even in the leadup to the tournament. Training with Goten probably wouldn't make much difference, Super Saiyan isn't an EXP boost, that's why Goku usually trains without it, and since Goten is like six or seven, they probably weren't fighting that hard. It was just a tournament where they were all expected to be stronger than the strongest people alive anyway.

I guess your right, seeing Gohan needed to teach Goten how to fly. Plus the times when Videl used to go to get taught by Gohan how to fly.

We don't have a real stat on how tall Korin tower is, or how Goku's stamina would compare to, for example, a human adult. It took Roshi 3 years to climb the thing despite his older form being ostensibly stronger than Goku, yet Goku did it in a day and Tao only took a few hours. Exactly where the line is drawn can't be so exact.

The manga doesn't mention how tall or how long it took Goku to reach the top, however we know that it took at least 24 hours. Basically one day at all since we saw 1 night time. Isn't it possible that Goku when he climbed Korin tower is stronger than when Master Roshi climbed the tower?
Master Roshi climbed Korin tower about 300 years ago, this was mentioned by Korin in chapter 88.

In chapter 89 Korin threw Goku Dragon Ball, which Goku climbed down and then Goku was able to climb back up in 3 hours by training with Korin.

Are you sure it took Master Roshi 3 years to climb Korin Tower? Korin says that it took Master Roshi 3 years to get the water, while it took Goku 3 days to get the water which is tap water.

Hard by whose standards? Does "hard" mean "superhuman"?

I know a lot of these responses sound pretty annoying, but it's because I'm trying to illustrate how fungible this stuff is. The reason powerscaling doesn't matter to me is because with each supposed "mistake", anyone including the show can fudge an explanation, and when an explanation is all it takes, then it's likely that whatever issues you have with the fights or pacing of Super is likely something other than power scaling when it's compared with Z, which by most metrics, has a lot of the same inconsistencies. They are not internally consistent with each other, but that's not really a problem, since Dragon Ball has always made up the rules as it goes.

Don't worry about it, the points you are making are really good.

You know your right, I have been so focused so much on explanation, what type of training they did, what power gain they make, if it makes sense what they did, etc, that I am now seeing those things don't matter. Those are the wrong things to focus on.

What I should focus on is the fight scenes, the enjoyable gags, characters fighting and adventures. Basically the positive things.

I will say this, what changed my view was when you pointed out what is wrong wiht offscreen training, that made me realize why don't I like Master Roshi secret training, when I am here saying Master Roshi was great at training his student. I noticed I contradicted myself.


I think I will debate like I used to before DBS existed and that is to focus what DB is about and that is fighting, the characters and adventure. I guess discussing character techniques and transformation is good.


Edit I just want to say sorry for taking my discussion too seriously about DBS and complaining about DBS a lot, I would PM members in privates but I see some member doesn't have the PM option. I promise I won't be complaining from now on.
I will stop complaining about Goten and Trunks, since I did go overboard.

Sorry if my post has caused any trouble. I will change my way how I debate for the better.

[Skar]

I wasn't generalizing about the entire fandom there, I was specifically attacking this dude's claim that there won't be people with nostalgia for the sequels around to judge the next set of Star Wars movies the same way a lot of sequel hate comes from prequel fans. I actually have a lot of problems with most Star Wars films including the entirety of the sequel and prequel trilogies, but the point here was mostly that this guy is trying to have his cake and eat it, declaring praise for the movies he likes legitimate and praise for the movies he doesn't like as fabricated or illegitimate.

Oh ok. It just sounded like a definitive claim that most people will be nostalgic towards the sequels after the next trilogy begins. I guess some people might but I was never nostalgic towards something I watched years ago if I didn't like it much in the first place. I guess it also depends on their age. I was around 10 when I watched Phantom Menace and that was actually the first SW movie I had ever seen. I watched the rest of the prequels and original trilogy in high school. Although I don't really have high expectations for sequels of completed stories, I still give them a chance and try to judge them based on their own merits and circumstances.

I really don't think so. I think if it were about the actual tone or pacing or emotions in the story itself, that's what people would be talking about. Power scaling discussion only ever seems to serve itself, I've never seen it meaningfully bleed into other, more-nuanced discussion, it's considered a category and measure of quality all it's own, especially when it comes to ways that making the story better is what hurts the power scale in the first place.

Well the topic of this thread is power scaling so that's what most people who joined the thread wanted to discuss. To be honest, I've been on the forum since 2013 and DBS has been the only DB media that questioning any power-up gets you accused of it being all you cared about in the series. Fans on here questioned power-ups in the original series, GT, or fanwork for years and suggest that some could've been handled better. It's usually when an explanation feels a little off and didn't benefit other characters who underwent the same training in similar circumstances. It's not all they care about and just something that wouldn't hurt if there was an alternative or more unique option.

For example, there's criticism of the DBS manga based on execution, pacing, etc but I don't think I've ever heard someone say a certain character being weaker or not getting as big of a power-up as depicted in the anime was one of them. If the power-up has little effect on the narrative or any other criteria that people judge a story by then nothing wrong with suggesting it could've been handled differently. Since Roshi's role would be the same if he was still implied to be weaker than his students, I don't think anyone would've argued him secretly surpassing some of them would've been better for what was established in DB. If Freeza obtained a god transformation for his race or something else that related to BoG, I doubt anyone would say the idea they read somewhere of beating up a much weaker sparing partner for a few months would've been just as good of an explanation.

I didn't mind how Broly was handled. He had some basic training from Paragus throughout his life but it wasn't enough to realize his potential like how Gohan and Uub started out. He surpassed Goku and Vegeta in less than an hour or so but that was due to a mutation not out-training them in less time while having little to no experience. I think that was a unique approach and hope Toriyama goes that route if he decides to have other characters return.

[Hulk10]

Besides, U6 Saiyans got used very quickly to SS due to discovering the tingly-back feeling factor that helped activate and deactivate the form. This is something Super Saiyans do subconsciously in the anime continuity and Cabba and Caulifla figured out this shortcut. Add to the fact that U6 Saiyans evolved past the need of having a tail, so they are naturally much stronger than U7 ones.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Universe 6 Saiyans are naturally stronger than U7 ones. You are welcome to think that but there is no real evidence for it aside from the ease they achieved Super Saiyan levels. And that is not enough to make such a claim. I don't even agree with the dragon ball wikia's listing of U6 Saiyans being called Evolved Saiyans, as they simply followed a slightly different evolutionary path.

[Hugo Boss]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Universe 6 Saiyans are naturally stronger than U7 ones. You are welcome to think that but there is no real evidence for it aside from the ease they achieved Super Saiyan levels. And that is not enough to make such a claim. I don't even agree with the dragon ball wikia's listing of U6 Saiyans being called Evolved Saiyans, as they simply followed a slightly different evolutionary path.

I’m only talking about their normal forms, Super Saiyan is not the point here. U6 Saiyans don’t rely on Great Ape transformation to excel in combat, unlike their U7 counterparts. This is a comparison between the tribes, not specific individuals like Goku or Vegeta.

[Hulk10]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Universe 6 Saiyans are naturally stronger than U7 ones. You are welcome to think that but there is no real evidence for it aside from the ease they achieved Super Saiyan levels. And that is not enough to make such a claim. I don't even agree with the dragon ball wikia's listing of U6 Saiyans being called Evolved Saiyans, as they simply followed a slightly different evolutionary path.

I’m only talking about their normal forms, Super Saiyan is not the point here. U6 Saiyans don’t rely on Great Ape transformation to excel in combat, unlike their U7 counterparts. This is a comparison between the tribes, not specific individuals like Goku or Vegeta.

I'm aware. But your claim doesn't hold much water.

[Shaddy]

Are you sure it took Master Roshi 3 years to climb Korin Tower? Korin says that it took Master Roshi 3 years to get the water, while it took Goku 3 days to get the water which is tap water.

Oh, I think I screwed up. You're probably right about that, I think it was the water. Guess I need to rewatch DB recut again.

You know your right, I have been so focused so much on explanation, what type of training they did, what power gain they make, if it makes sense what they did, etc, that I am now seeing those things don't matter. Those are the wrong things to focus on.

What I should focus on is the fight scenes, the enjoyable gags, characters fighting and adventures. Basically the positive things.

Well, I want to be clear, I'm not saying you can't examine these things here. Don't only look at the positive side! My only real intent was to highlight that all of Dragon Ball has some issues with the power scale, and when we talk about the problems with Super, it's probably about more than just power scaling.

Edit I just want to say sorry for taking my discussion too seriously about DBS and complaining about DBS a lot, I would PM members in privates but I see some member doesn't have the PM option. I promise I won't be complaining from now on.
I will stop complaining about Goten and Trunks, since I did go overboard.

Sorry if my post has caused any trouble. I will change my way how I debate for the better.

Hey, you're good, bro. You saw how the other guy was acting. We disagreed, but I don't want there to be any animosity between us. I'm sorry if I got my wires crossed and accidentally took too harsh a tone because at the same time I was arguing with the other guy who definitely did not want to hear anyone else's take.

Oh ok. It just sounded like a definitive claim that most people will be nostalgic towards the sequels after the next trilogy begins. I guess some people might but I was never nostalgic towards something I watched years ago if I didn't like it much in the first place. I guess it also depends on their age. I was around 10 when I watched Phantom Menace and that was actually the first SW movie I had ever seen. I watched the rest of the prequels and original trilogy in high school. Although I don't really have high expectations for sequels of completed stories, I still give them a chance and try to judge them based on their own merits and circumstances.

I wasn't trying to make any specific accusations, just to say that it does happen to some people, and basically always will happen to some people. I mean, I'm not innocent. I brought up Sonic Lost World because that was a polarizing game that upset a lot of people, and I liked it, and personally can't wait for the nostalgia cycle to make that the game everyone wants to go back to.

Well the topic of this thread is power scaling so that's what most people who joined the thread wanted to discuss. To be honest, I've been on the forum since 2013 and DBS has been the only DB media that questioning any power-up gets you accused of it being all you cared about in the series. Fans on here questioned power-ups in the original series, GT, or fanwork for years and suggest that some could've been handled better. It's usually when an explanation feels a little off and didn't benefit other characters who underwent the same training in similar circumstances. It's not all they care about and just something that wouldn't hurt if there was an alternative or more unique option.

Well, that's my point, it's not really about the mere questioning of a power difference, but treating it like it's new. I won't lie, you see a lot of that response because I think people like myself made peace with things not always making sense in the older shows, so seeing Super brought up with these problems like they're unique or somehow particularly egregious, especially when a lot of the changes are deliberate to give more characters a fighting chance, it provokes that knee-jerk reaction.

For example, there's criticism of the DBS manga based on execution, pacing, etc but I don't think I've ever heard someone say a certain character being weaker or not getting as big of a power-up as depicted in the anime was one of them. If the power-up has little effect on the narrative or any other criteria that people judge a story by then nothing wrong with suggesting it could've been handled differently.

Well, I for one have seen complaints like that. I have definitely seen complaints that Trunks is kind of undermined and not given as much to do in the manga because of how much weaker he is. I think this might just be a spot where we'll have to agree to disagree though, since there's not a great way to track that.

Since Roshi's role would be the same if he was still implied to be weaker than his students, I don't think anyone would've argued him secretly surpassing some of them would've been better for what was established in DB. If Freeza obtained a god transformation for his race or something else that related to BoG, I doubt anyone would say the idea they read somewhere of beating up a much weaker sparing partner for a few months would've been just as good of an explanation.

Well that's why I'm not really arguing that the explanations make the story better, but that they don't particularly matter in the manner being complained about. Power scale debates usually focus on the purely "logistical", how doing x thing gives you x amount of strength. Kind of like how all those guys tried to prove it was biologically or mathematically impossible for that woman in The Last of Us 2 to be buff or whatever?

I think it's totally valid to complain about opportunities for thematic relevance and character building within power boosts not being taken, but I view that as distinct from specifically complaining about the character's numbers or tier-levels shifting somehow in and of themselves, which is what it always feels like I'm seeing in power scale debates. If it were more about whether the character is being used well, I'd be a lot more forgiving.