Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 11 - Official Discussion Thread

[JulieYBM]

My biggest gripe with Daima so far is the soundtrack. Aside from the great opening music, I'm not really connecting with any of the OSTs. Every DB series has some really good instrumental songs that I ocasionally go back to listen, but I'm not feeling that with Daima.

Does this mean it's as bad for you as the Super Hero OST was for many?

I would characterize that as an apt comparison for how I feel. I was even more disappointed because I love the work of the composer of Super Hero for the PreCure franchise.

[AliTheZombie13]

This strawman doesn't work when we had his name plastered all over SUPER back them fans still had complains about different aspects of the story.

I'm just pointing out what I perceive as clear hypocrisy to how Daima is being treated vs. how GT or Super were treated.

Hasn't even been months since I saw people in this very forum arguing that the characters "forgetting to fly" or "not going Super Saiyan already" were key points of content that ruined GT forever in their eyes. Now I see people in this very forum going, "Ummm... You know... Flying and teleporting are very taxing techniques... And Piccolo probably just forgot his own language, IDK (shrugs)"

There is far more leniency for Daima than there is for either GT or Super.
I see no reason as to why this is happening other than, "Daima has Toriyama's name on it."

And personally, I think there's a world of difference between "Toriyama gave Toei bullet points and didn't give a fuck" vs. "Toriyama was heavily invested and very excited about this one project."

[GhostEmperorX]

I would characterize that as an apt comparison for how I feel. I was even more disappointed because I love the work of the composer of Super Hero for the PreCure franchise.

I'd certainly say that he "fell off" that time, but from the looks of it, despite the franchise name it really was just a one-time thing and he didn't end up staying for long (as Yamashita's selection has proven).
As the latter is concerned, he's definitely not traveling down the same path in terms of not living up to his pre-existing reputation, at least from what I've heard so far.

[TheSaiyanGod]

My biggest gripe with Daima so far is the soundtrack. Aside from the great opening music, I'm not really connecting with any of the OSTs. Every DB series has some really good instrumental songs that I ocasionally go back to listen, but I'm not feeling that with Daima.

Does this mean it's as bad for you as the Super Hero OST was for many?

Yeah, I think it's an apt comparison too.

I distinctly remember the theme that played during the fight between Gohan and Gamma 1 (which I think is the main OST? it's good), but other than that it was also an unremarkable soundtrack for me. However, Daima at least has Jaka Jaan which I think is a great and very catchy song, while I remember how weird it was that Super Hero was the only modern DB movie not to have its own theme (Battle of Gods - Hero / Resurrection F - Pledge of Z/ Broly - Blizzard). So I think Daima has the edge in that sense at least.

But Dragon Ball has always been a filled with great soundtracks for me, so I'm still hoping for more from Daima's soundtrack.

[Majin Buu]

I'm just pointing out what I perceive as clear hypocrisy to how Daima is being treated vs. how GT or Super were treated.

Hasn't even been months since I saw people in this very forum arguing that the characters "forgetting to fly" or "not going Super Saiyan already" were key points of content that ruined GT forever in their eyes. Now I see people in this very forum going, "Ummm... You know... Flying and teleporting are very taxing techniques... And Piccolo probably just forgot his own language, IDK (shrugs)"

There is far more leniency for Daima than there is for either GT or Super.
I see no reason as to why this is happening other than, "Daima has Toriyama's name on it."

Maybe people are more lenient with Daima because they're simply enjoying it more than GT?

That's at least the case for me anyway. I'm thoroughly enjoying Daima whereas I've only ever sorta-kinda liked some parts of GT. I get that you like GT, but implying that anyone who likes Daima over GT is just a biased Toriyama fan that isn't thinking critically is an unfair accusation that isn't doing you or GT any favors.

This framing implies that GT and Daima should be treated like they're the same when I would argue that there's a clear difference in quality between the two that warrants them being treated differently.

I can look past a plot hole here and there if I've been joying the material overall. Daima gets that privilege with me because I've been enjoying the character writing and lore so it's actually delivering a quality product for me (plus it's not even clear if the plot hole being complained about is an actual plot hole since we haven't finished the story yet).

GT on the other hand is too fundamentally flawed for me to view as anything more than a mixed-bag that's, again, only sorta-kinda enjoyable at certain points. It gets less of a break for its plot holes for me because it's a more fundamentally flawed, and thus, not very enjoyable product for me for the most part (I'd also argue that GT's plot holes are far more nonsensical than any of Daima's supposed plot holes).

[AliTheZombie13]

Maybe people are more lenient with Daima because they're simply enjoying it more than GT?

Probably the most likely explanation.
Honestly, I just would've preferred if whenever someone points out things like "Why isn't Goku teleporting? He should be doing that. This is kinda taking me out of it." It wasn't met with such aggressive defense whereas this kind of criticism is the norm when discussing things like GT.

[Mr Baggins]

*snip*

Agreed with much of this, and as you said at the end there, you could pretty easily argue that GT's plotholes and inconsistencies are of a different kind than Daima's supposed ones anyway.

The worst you can say about this whole Piccolo-Namekian debacle, assuming he isn't just lying to Neva, is that Toriyama either forgot about a smaller tidbit from early in the manga or intradiegetically made Piccolo himself forget the language over time because he felt it suited his character – I'd argue the latter, since that's what the dialogue already implies. On the other hand, a lot of GT's discrepancies are so wholesale baked into entire plotlines just to make them work that there was likely no "forgetting" here; many of its most crucial conflicts wouldn't exist without them, and they brought nothing substantive anyway.

Outside of that, any equivalent discrepancy you could find for GT is also minor in isolation. Small stuff like kid Goku not immediately flying isn't a thing I'd imagine would even register in most people's minds. Like yourself, I think GT's plotholes are the least of its problems, which are much more fundamental in nature, but I guess that would have to be a post for a different thread.
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Also, what's with this presumption that there's "hypocrisy" at all if what's likely being discussed here is different takes from different folks in the first place?

[JulieYBM]

Maybe people are more lenient with Daima because they're simply enjoying it more than GT?

Probably the most likely explanation.
Honestly, I just would've preferred if whenever someone points out things like "Why isn't Goku teleporting? He should be doing that. This is kinda taking me out of it." It wasn't met with such aggressive defense whereas this kind of criticism is the norm when discussing things like GT.

Dragon Ball GT actually addresses Gokuu's inability to teleport, though. In Dragon Ball Daima, I feel like it was stated that the demons don't have ki? Or at the very least, it's too small for Gokuu to detect? Or I'm just making shit up because I don't sleep anymore and I can't remember what actually has been said without combing through four hours of television again?

I feel like this is just a really stupid conversation to have, because it inevitably just goes around in circles. People hate your little blorbo series? Yeah, that happens. The block button's a wonderful thing.

I dunno, both shows suck and I don't really want to think too hard about why, because I'm a busy old lady and opining about the dumb cartoons I hate for dumbs reasons all day is exhausting. I will say, though, that while Dragon Ball Daima is good enough for a first-time watch, I just don't foresee myself coming back for seconds. I think it's not playing up it's most charming aspects quite enough (the new characters) and I just don't need to see Gokuu and Vegeta beat up mooks for a twentieth time. There's no story there, nor any character.

[AliTheZombie13]

[...]

I agree with most of this, actually. I can't and won't stop anybody from going, "Dragon Ball GT is shit and therefore fair game for (insert a million nitpicks here!)"

But I *am* having trouble liking Daima for practically the same reasons people trashed GT for. It's hard to take a story seriously when it's established plain as day that these are OP characters with OP abilities that allow them to overcome anything in seconds, which makes them look dumb when they decide not to do that.

For example, this episode, it's going "Oh no, Vegeta has been swallowed whole by a giant fish! Will he get out of it? Will Goku save his friend? Is any of this interesting at all?! Find out the epic conclusion in the next episode!" But like... None of this presents any threat. Goku can teleport, Vegeta can go Super Saiyan, why is the show even trying to make this seem like it's a big deal? Why end in a pretty avoidable cliffhanger and make us waste time when we all know the conclusion: Vegeta will just activate the "Fuck it, I'm a main character!" transformation and be done with it?

This is boring. Daima is boring me out. So I agree with you, it ain't that good of a show.

[LightBing]

The Kraken has been established as a credible threat. Goku said they can't handle them currently.
It's still manufactured since Vegeta, taking his own words, shouldn't be messing around and putting himself in such a situation.

However, he might still be limited by his mini status, being behind Goku's "progress" by quite a bit since the latter has been fighting constantly.
He had a small power up while underwater, which makes me believe this perhaps is the intent.

[AliTheZombie13]

The show can call it a credible threat all it wants, I haven't seen it shown yet.
And Vegeta not going Super Saiyan against it from the very beginning doesn't do it any favors.

This is literally the fight against Glorio and Tamagami #1: "Fuck around for a bit, pretend the enemy is strong, then activate Super Saiyan and kick their ass effortlessly." Except this time, it's a two-parter for no reason.

[anubisj]

...

I actually agree with this take. I mean, every time an artist makes a sequel to his work (movie, book, anime), it can get thrashed, but it tends to be viewed in a generally more "merciful" way by critics, or people are more lenient with their criticisms of it, more so than if the sequel was made by someone other (how many times have we heard the "jeez, it was taken over by someone else and it went to shit, please original creator, come back!"). We also need to take into account the context. GT was made right after the, imo, best anime series this franchise ever had, a complete cultural phenomena, peak television, and Toriyama was said to be barely involved with it. Daima comes a bunch of years after the last show, which wasn't that good in itself, people are itching for more DB, and it has Toriyama all over it.

All in all, it has a certain advantage over GT, but, to be honest, I also believe that the show still has to prove itself to everyone. For example, in my case, I'm not enjoying Daima half as much as I enjoy GT (so far), not because of Toriyama's involvement or lack thereof, but simply in terms of designs, plot beats and overall concept. The days where I could see new designs like the androids, majin buu or broly seem so far away...now we have designs like Majin Duu or the Gammas, or the Tamagamis, who are just screaming "make a toy out of this for 7-year-olds!". And also, of course, back in Super we had Golden not!Frieza, not!Cell Max, and Super not!Broly. So it seems we either get recycled scenes and characters, or, when we actually get new, creative content, we get a light-hearted adventure where everyone is a kid.

And that's mixed with some random retconnings, which I'm not really enjoying, personally. Like, I was fine with Dragon Ball lore before. So Namekians are definitely demons now (also, they turned the concept of demons in Dragon Ball, which seemed so cool with the introduction of Dabura, into "aliens that came before the multiverse"), welp, okay, I can buy that, and now Shinjins are also Demons, mmm, okay, but wait, Saibamen are also demons! Really? Saibamen were so cool as alien meatshields for the saiyans, why make them majins? Oh, but as it turns out, all people with pointy ears are demons . I mean, it's kinda unnecessary if you ask me, like, why do all this to lore that has existed for decades? To be honest, when they announced that the series would be set in the Demon Realm, I thought they would like make new lore about Demons, kind of like this self-contained story where there would be some new additions to the lore, but they really are retconning a lot of things, Imo they are going to far (or, perhaps, he is/has gone to far).

I do enjoy certain things about the series, and I'm willing to see how it all ends, but GT like blows this show out of the water, so far. I'll reserve final judgement until the series is done, however.

As for your post on this, I will also say that this forum is not the best place to gauge Daima's general reception in the fanbase. I think Daima is being thrashed quite a bit out there, and, really, I believe if Daima had released at GT's time (like switched places), without Toriyama saying he was involved, yep, I believe it would've been thrashed (so far, maybe it gets better later) the same or more than GT. Again, my take.

PS: Favorite new design so far from Daima: The Minotaur. i also like Degesu and Arinsu.

[StaticMania]

I feel like Goku not teleporting should be a criticism you should have for the series as a whole...

It's a broken ability that pretty much makes distance, speed, retreat and...etc a non-issue.

He doesn't use it most of the time and literally any situation would allow use for it.

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GT already proved that nerfing this ability doesn't mean anything, he'll only use it in situations that are impossible and require it anyway.

It's a good thing the moment teleporting was introduced Goku was immediately given enemies he couldn't use it for and then put in a coma.

[AliTheZombie13]

I feel like Goku not teleporting should be a criticism you should have for the series as a whole...

It's a broken ability that pretty much makes distance, speed, retreat and...etc a non-issue.

He doesn't use it most of the time and literally any situation would allow use for it.

I do have that criticism for the whole series, actually.
Been complaining about Goku forgetting to teleport since the Cell Saga.
Toriyama should've never given him that ability.