Goku's New Form in Daima!

[Venus]

...Yeah. Thanks but no thanks, Daima, I'll stick to the real Super Saiyan 4 from GT.

We're now at least three for three on Toriyama co-opting cool things that he didn't originally make and somehow managing to downgrade them. The worst example was of course "nice guy" nuBardock in Minus, less sharply followed by "don't hug me I'm scared" nuBroli, and now it's happened again with fugly, kid-sized nu-SS4 in Daima.

And the worst part is, just like Bardock and Broli, there's going to be a swarm of folks in the fandom (mostly elsewhere) running around loudly declaring that this subpar "c~A~n~O~n" version of SS4 is the only one that's "real" or matters at all.

The only way I could see this being salvaged is if the following episode(s?) reveal that this magically-granted version of SS4 is just a temporary, halfway-realized version of a true transformation that Goku simply isn't strong enough to use for real yet, or something like that. But I know better at this point than to give modern DB that much credit.

I'd say he's 2 for 4, with Broly and "evil Goku" being hits, but he surely had a knack for taking cool things from the 90s and making them lame.

Honestly, Black Goku as an evil Goku just fails, especially after it was revealed that it was Zamasu using Goku's body.

Going to wait to watch the full episode to judge on Goku's new form, not very promising based on the images I saw.

[BernardoCairo]

I never really liked the original Broly character or the movies (with the first one being halfway decent and the other two being bad). So I actually prefer the new Broly over the old one. He loses a bit of that 90s flamboyance, but I personally didn't mind it anyway. I agree with Bardock, though.
Turles and Goku Black? I think that's a stretch.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

And the worst part is, just like Bardock and Broli, there's going to be a swarm of folks in the fandom (mostly elsewhere) running around loudly declaring that this subpar "c~A~n~O~n" version of SS4 is the only one that's "real" or matters at all.

This is by far one of the worst things about the Dragon Ball fanbase. One minute they're hating on the likes of Broly and Ssj4, the next they're their biggest fans simply because Toriyama did something with them. Can we please go back to judging something as it is, not based on who wrote it ?

[Cybersai]

The only way I could see this being salvaged is if the following episode(s?) reveal that this magically-granted version of SS4 is just a temporary, halfway-realized version of a true transformation that Goku simply isn't strong enough to use for real yet, or something like that. But I know better at this point than to give modern DB that much credit.

Isn't that the case? Since we know Goku never uses this form in Super, it's very likely this transformation is only temporary, or can't be used outside the Demon Realm or without Neva.

[JulieYBM]

...Yeah. Thanks but no thanks, Daima, I'll stick to the real Super Saiyan 4 from GT.

We're now at least three for three on Toriyama co-opting cool things that he didn't originally make and somehow managing to downgrade them. The worst example was of course "nice guy" nuBardock in Minus, less sharply followed by "don't hug me I'm scared" nuBroli, and now it's happened again with fugly, kid-sized nu-SS4 in Daima.

And the worst part is, just like Bardock and Broli, there's going to be a swarm of folks in the fandom (mostly elsewhere) running around loudly declaring that this subpar "c~A~n~O~n" version of SS4 is the only one that's "real" or matters at all.

The only way I could see this being salvaged is if the following episode(s?) reveal that this magically-granted version of SS4 is just a temporary, halfway-realized version of a true transformation that Goku simply isn't strong enough to use for real yet, or something like that. But I know better at this point than to give modern DB that much credit.

I'd say he's 2 for 4, with Broly and "evil Goku" being hits, but he surely had a knack for taking cool things from the 90s and making them lame.

Honestly, Black Goku as an evil Goku just fails, especially after it was revealed that it was Zamasu using Goku's body.

Going to wait to watch the full episode to judge on Goku's new form, not very promising based on the images I saw.

Gokuu Black isn't Evil Gokuu, he's Fruity Gokuu.

That the best Gokuu is not even the actual Gokuu is honestly kind of hilarious.

[Jord]

So now, timeline wise we have Goku training for 7 years to attain the strongest SSJ form thus far, SSJ3, then not long after that attain this pseudo SSJ4-form that isn't mentioned again after and then quickly after that get SSJ God, the next year get SSJ Blue and the year after that get Ultra Instinct.
Those are a lot of forms in a quick amount of time.

[AliTheZombie13]

And the worst part is, just like Bardock and Broli, there's going to be a swarm of folks in the fandom (mostly elsewhere) running around loudly declaring that this subpar "c~A~n~O~n" version of SS4 is the only one that's "real" or matters at all.

This is by far one of the worst things about the Dragon Ball fanbase. One minute they're hating on the likes of Broly and Ssj4, the next they're their biggest fans simply because Toriyama did something with them. Can we please go back to judging something as it is, not based on who wrote it ?

Yup, pretty annoying alright. They're doing this exact thing right now, declaring all of GT worthless now that we took the "one good thing" about it out of it. Welp, Toriyama's dead, so moving forward, everybody will have no choice but to think critically about whether something's good or not.

[Cybersai]

So now, timeline wise we have Goku training for 7 years to attain the strongest SSJ form thus far, SSJ3, then not long after that attain this pseudo SSJ4-form that isn't mentioned again after and then quickly after that get SSJ God, the next year get SSJ Blue and the year after that get Ultra Instinct.
Those are a lot of forms in a quick amount of time.

Given we know he doesn't use SSJ4 in Super at all, it's assumed he can't use it outside the Demon Realm or without Neva's magic.

[JulieYBM]

And the worst part is, just like Bardock and Broli, there's going to be a swarm of folks in the fandom (mostly elsewhere) running around loudly declaring that this subpar "c~A~n~O~n" version of SS4 is the only one that's "real" or matters at all.

This is by far one of the worst things about the Dragon Ball fanbase. One minute they're hating on the likes of Broly and Ssj4, the next they're their biggest fans simply because Toriyama did something with them. Can we please go back to judging something as it is, not based on who wrote it ?

Yup, pretty annoying alright. They're doing this exact thing right now, declaring all of GT worthless now that we took the "one good thing" about it out of it. Welp, Toriyama's dead, so moving forward, everybody will have no choice but to think critically about whether something's good or not.

They'll always do stuff with Dragon Ball GT. Go look at Super Dragon Ball Heroes and how much it used bits of Dragon Ball GT.

Like, oh my fucking gawd, y'all: it's not the end of the world. This series has been around for forty (40) years: shit inevitably comes back around. New stuff eventually happens. They have historically not ignored Dragon Ball GT.

And seriously, who the fuck cares about canon? Ignore it! I do, it has zero effect on whether or not a project is good or not.

[AliTheZombie13]

They'll always do stuff with Dragon Ball GT. Go look at Super Dragon Ball Heroes and how much it used bits of Dragon Ball GT.

Like, oh my fucking gawd, y'all: it's not the end of the world. This series has been around for forty (40) years: shit inevitably comes back around. New stuff eventually happens. They have historically not ignored Dragon Ball GT.

And seriously, who the fuck cares about canon? Ignore it! I do, it has zero effect on whether or not a project is good or not.

Don't care, never cared, will never care.
GT is there, it exists, nothing the fandom says or does can erase it from existence. I like it, that's all that matters.
Just temporarily frustrated seeing some reactions outside, is all. This too shall pass.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Yup, pretty annoying alright. They're doing this exact thing right now, declaring all of GT worthless now that we took the "one good thing" about it out of it. Welp, Toriyama's dead, so moving forward, everybody will have no choice but to think critically about whether something's good or not.

GT being used for inspiration should be enough to prove that no one in charge of the franchise ever looked down on it or considered it less than any other part of the franchise. As far as I'm concerned, GT got there first, so it's by far the more relevant sequel to me. That, and the fact that it did plenty of things better than Super and Daima did.

[Venus]

They'll always do stuff with Dragon Ball GT. Go look at Super Dragon Ball Heroes and how much it used bits of Dragon Ball GT.

Like, oh my fucking gawd, y'all: it's not the end of the world. This series has been around for forty (40) years: shit inevitably comes back around. New stuff eventually happens. They have historically not ignored Dragon Ball GT.

And seriously, who the fuck cares about canon? Ignore it! I do, it has zero effect on whether or not a project is good or not.

This honestly, this is the way, even now in 2025 I still enjoy many of the old DBZ movies even if they don't fit in the timeline of the Anime/Manga, same goes for GT.

[Jord]

So now, timeline wise we have Goku training for 7 years to attain the strongest SSJ form thus far, SSJ3, then not long after that attain this pseudo SSJ4-form that isn't mentioned again after and then quickly after that get SSJ God, the next year get SSJ Blue and the year after that get Ultra Instinct.
Those are a lot of forms in a quick amount of time.

Given we know he doesn't use SSJ4 in Super at all, it's assumed he can't use it outside the Demon Realm or without Neva's magic.

That's why I called it pseudo SSJ4. However you want to call it, it is a new form. I'm curious to see how they explain him not being able to access the form after Daima. Your prediction seems to be spot on.

[dbgtFO]

I really hope they don't call it Super Saiyan 4. That was always a bad name for a form that clearly is a radical departure from what came before.
Call it Super Saiyan Daima, if at least to have some kind of unique naming convention lol

[Cybersai]

Super Saiyan Demon has a nice ring to it.

[TheMikado]

And the worst part is, just like Bardock and Broli, there's going to be a swarm of folks in the fandom (mostly elsewhere) running around loudly declaring that this subpar "c~A~n~O~n" version of SS4 is the only one that's "real" or matters at all.

This is by far one of the worst things about the Dragon Ball fanbase. One minute they're hating on the likes of Broly and Ssj4, the next they're their biggest fans simply because Toriyama did something with them. Can we please go back to judging something as it is, not based on who wrote it ?

This 100%. I almost want to make this my signature as some who has loved both the LSSJ form and SSJ4 lore wise, seeing it now be “ok” with even less explanation, originality, and lore tied to it makes me want to vomit.

[TheMikado]

Yup, pretty annoying alright. They're doing this exact thing right now, declaring all of GT worthless now that we took the "one good thing" about it out of it. Welp, Toriyama's dead, so moving forward, everybody will have no choice but to think critically about whether something's good or not.

GT being used for inspiration should be enough to prove that no one in charge of the franchise ever looked down on it or considered it less than any other part of the franchise. As far as I'm concerned, GT got there first, so it's by far the more relevant sequel to me. That, and the fact that it did plenty of things better than Super and Daima did.

GT had several original plot points as did the movies. The word “canon” should be banned from this forum entirely.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

This 100%. I almost want to make this my signature as some who has loved both the LSSJ form and SSJ4 lore wise, seeing it now be “ok” with even less explanation, originality, and lore tied to it makes me want to vomit.

I've always valued the additions made to the franchise by the movies and GT, as both made the story and world far grander than what was seen in the original manga. It never made sense to me to dislike them solely based on the fact that Toriyama wasn't heavily involved with them. Notice that I used heavily and not "not" involved, as he did design the movie characters and it was his idea to set GT after Z, rather than before EOZ like the producers wanted. Despite that, fans still claim they're not "canon", whatever that means.

[SupremeKai25]

This 100%. I almost want to make this my signature as some who has loved both the LSSJ form and SSJ4 lore wise, seeing it now be “ok” with even less explanation, originality, and lore tied to it makes me want to vomit.

I've always valued the additions made to the franchise by the movies and GT, as both made the story and world far grander than what was seen in the original manga. It never made sense to me to dislike them solely based on the fact that Toriyama wasn't heavily involved with them. Notice that I used heavily and not "not" involved, as he did design the movie characters and it was his idea to set GT after Z, rather than before EOZ like the producers wanted. Despite that, fans still claim they're not "canon", whatever that means.

Yet clearly you don't value all the additions from Super like 11 other universes with their own characters and quirks, new gods, new lore, etc...

Regardless, Super is the new GT. The new punching bag. I'd say this has been obvious for the past 10 years.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Yet clearly you don't value all the additions from Super like 11 other universes with their own characters and quirks, new gods, new lore, etc...

Actually I don't, for the simple fact that all of it is underdeveloped and underwhelming. Between Super and Daima, modern DB has over 150 episodes, 4 movies, an OVA, and two original manga arcs, yet somehow it feels like we got nothing out of it. Today's episode perfectly captures what's wrong with modern DB: all style, zero substance.