Daima to Super Connection

[Benjamin-Simons-91]

The best continuity in case Daima is counted is: Bardock - The Father of Goku -> Dragon Ball (original manga) -> Daima (as it seems less lackluster than Super despite the fact GT handled Super Saiyan 4 better).-> End of Z.

Doesn't DBS Bardock appear in Daima?

Yes he does


It's clear that ever since toriyama wrote dragonball minus he considers this version of bardock the "canon" one, not that he cared that much about canon but still. Jaco the galactic patrolman which includes db minus is a direct tie in with the dragonball manga so not much room to argue there

I said "best"; and Toriyama did drew this version of Bardock in the original manga before he decided to copy Superman's story in "Dragon Ball Minus". It was indeed a minus to the franchise.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Doesn't DBS Bardock appear in Daima?

Yes he does


It's clear that ever since toriyama wrote dragonball minus he considers this version of bardock the "canon" one, not that he cared that much about canon but still. Jaco the galactic patrolman which includes db minus is a direct tie in with the dragonball manga so not much room to argue there

I said "best"; and Toriyama did drew this version of Bardock in the original manga before he decided to copy Superman's story in "Dragon Ball Minus". It was indeed a minus to the franchise.

He obviously changed his mind later on. I wonder if he even remembered that he drew that Bardock panel. But regardless of which one we prefer, I think it's pretty safe to say that in his mind the official version became the one he retconned later on. Frustrating but it is what it is.

[taikufuru]

Interestingly, this Bardock look could easily be recontextualized, since the manga opens a one-month gap between Goku's sending to Earth and the destruction of Planet Vegeta.

In one month, Bardock could have the armor that appears in the panel, since the one we see on Minus is damaged from the fighting.

By adapting this story, Dragon Ball Super: Broly could have at least changed Bardock's design to match the panel...

[Melkaniator J]

There is no official canon. No one has ever gone into detail about this. Akira Toriyama, Shueisha, Toei Animation or Akio Iyoku never officially commented on this.

Not directly at least. And why would they bother? Normally readers of the manga already know. Pre-SUPER it was extremely obvious, it's the way they do things now that muddles the perception of it. Now without Akira there's even less hope.

DB manga it's the actual story. The rest is just promotional stuff where Akira couldn't even be bother to create that story fully. He CLEARLY doesn't care. That's why he only delivers his half-ideas and let Toyotaro fill the gaps in the manga whole Toei does in the anime. Everything we've seen so far points only to that. I'm not trying to convince you, believe that you will.

It's like saying that Avengers: Age of Ultron is not canon because the villain was created by Tony Stark instead of Ant-Man (as is the case in the comics).

False equivalence at its finest.

Indeed, filler is a term that exists only among fans. No one from the production team treats these episodes as something disposable.

Yeah right. They dispose of filler storylines or how stuff was shown to work on filler regularly. Not even the creators of the filler takes them seriously, and not only in DB, this goes for most anime.

[taikufuru]

"The manga is the real story, the rest is promotional stuff!"

I find it so funny that you simply speak for the owners of the work as if it were the final word and not just your opinion as a fan, which is as relevant as mine.

And it's not a false balance. The Dragon Ball, Z and GT TV series are an adaptation of the original manga, just as the Avengers movies are adaptations of the Marvel comics.

You don't mix these two media, these two continuities. They are independent and equally valid.

I find it so funny that you say as if the "fillers" (this separation is stupid, this bad habit of breaking up an autonomous work by delimiting what is important or not is stupid) were not an integral part of the development of the characters in that story, as well as the remnants of "filler" elements creating new stories like Tsufuru-jins in GT.

"Oh, but that's not in the original manga, so it doesn't matter, it's filler!"

It doesn't matter. IT EXISTS in the TV series and constitutes its story, which is independent of the original manga.

In this discussion, you simply insist on mixing your opinion as a fan with the official word. There is not much to go beyond that.

[PhantomSaiyan]

"Oh, but that's not in the original manga, so it doesn't matter, it's filler!"

It doesn't matter. IT EXISTS in the TV series and constitutes its story, which is independent of the original manga.

I won't tell you that you're right or wrong on this, but if we consider db and dbz filler, then dragonball as a whole becomes even more of an inconsistent mess seeing how many of those fillers directly contradict the actual events of the story or just flat out cause problems just by virtue of existing

The fact that the main story of course doesn't even try to acknowledge or fix those inconsistencis doesn't help your case. True us fans ignore the filler, but it's the show itself that ignores it first and foremost

[Vegeta th3 4th]

The Dragon Ball, Z and GT TV series are an adaptation of the original manga. You don't mix these two media, these two continuities. They are independent and equally valid.

I think the biggest mistake fans of this franchise make is trying to fit everything into one little box. Dragon Ball only makes sense when it's broken up into separate sections.

The original manga

The original anime trilogy and their movies

Super's anime and the modern movies

Super's manga

Heroes' anime

Heroes' manga

Daima

[funrush]

Daima is not different enough from Super that it's incompatible IMO. The reason I can't link Super with GT is because there's way too much in Super that is just never mentioned in GT. Multiple characters (and transformations) that should be there but aren't, etc. The main issues with Daima canonization are

• Goku doesn't use Super Saiyan 4 against Beerus
• Vegeta doesn't use Super Saiyan 3 against Beerus
• Goku is told about Universe 7 before he is told about it in Battle of Gods
• Zeno is no longer the creator of the universe
• Kibitokai
• Tertian Oculus and SS4 are never mentioned in Super

The first 3 are annoying but not world-shattering. Remember in EoZ when Bulma says "We haven't seen you in 5 years" even though in Super she was seeing them all the time? That's the level of plothole those are to me. When Goku says SS3 is his last form, he is lying for no reason just like Bulma is lying for no reason in that scene of EOZ. Could you say that Bulma line makes Super incompatible with Z? Sure if you wanted, but why would you want to? I'd rather have Daima and Super both count if possible.

As for Zeno, I like the idea that the guy they showed instead is Zeno's dad or something. That's a plot hole they could fix easily.

Kibitokai yeah idk they screwed the pooch on that one. Although Daima's rule about fusions is more what I was expecting pre-Super.

As for the Tertian Oculus, that's the real big question mark. Where are they in Super? Do they still have them? Why doesn't Piccolo use them 24/7?

[UpFromTheSkies]

If I can think of ways to connect them, so can Toyo. They'll connect, don't worry.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

If I can think of ways to connect them, so can Toyo. They'll connect, don't worry.

All they have to do is say Daima takes place between Battle of Gods and Resurrection F. That will instantly fix everything.

[taikufuru]

"Oh, but that's not in the original manga, so it doesn't matter, it's filler!"

It doesn't matter. IT EXISTS in the TV series and constitutes its story, which is independent of the original manga.

I won't tell you that you're right or wrong on this, but if we consider db and dbz filler, then dragonball as a whole becomes even more of an inconsistent mess seeing how many of those fillers directly contradict the actual events of the story or just flat out cause problems just by virtue of existing

The fact that the main story of course doesn't even try to acknowledge or fix those inconsistencis doesn't help your case. True us fans ignore the filler, but it's the show itself that ignores it first and foremost

A work speaks for itself. It's bizarre that you have to break it down so that it makes sense in your subjective logic. It's not like we have to choose which episodes are worth it or not, since most of the time, these "fillers" are well integrated into the overall story and are just as valid as the content being adapted.

• When Goku is seen driving just before the Cell Games, they are reminded of the filler episode of Driver's License.

• While the battle against the Saiyans is taking place, Bulma, Muten Roshi and the others are shown what happened on television. When they meet up after the battle, every moment is reconfigured to be consistent with the "filler".

• The adventures of the Great Saiyaman take place in a completely different way than what we see in the manga.

So what? It makes sense in its own logic as an adaptation. If it happened one way in the manga, it is completely valid for it to happen differently in its animated adaptation.

And from the various examples, it is more common for "fillers" to be integrated into the main story (after all, they are just one story in anime) than to be immediately discarded.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Most of the time, these "fillers" are well integrated into the overall story and are just as valid as the content being adapted.

I know this is going to be a very unpopular opinion, but more often than not, the filler material enhanced the manga material. The manga's pacing is just too fast for its own good; nothing is allowed the time to breath and set in. The anime's filler, although not perfect by any means, fixes this issue by letting things play out in a more natural way.

[taikufuru]

I wouldn't say it really improves. It's more a matter of adapting a story to another medium. You can't apply the pacing of a manga to a 20-minute TV series episode. Although I can agree that there was some depth in the development of some characters like Gohan surviving for six months in preparation for the fight against the Saiyans, as well as Bulma's gradual affection for Vegeta.

[PhantomSaiyan]

A work speaks for itself. It's bizarre that you have to break it down so that it makes sense in your subjective logic. It's not like we have to choose which episodes are worth it or not, since most of the time, these "fillers" are well integrated into the overall story and are just as valid as the content being adapted.

• When Goku is seen driving just before the Cell Games, they are reminded of the filler episode of Driver's License.

• While the battle against the Saiyans is taking place, Bulma, Muten Roshi and the others are shown what happened on television. When they meet up after the battle, every moment is reconfigured to be consistent with the "filler".

• The adventures of the Great Saiyaman take place in a completely different way than what we see in the manga.

So what? It makes sense in its own logic as an adaptation. If it happened one way in the manga, it is completely valid for it to happen differently in its animated adaptation.

And from the various examples, it is more common for "fillers" to be integrated into the main story (after all, they are just one story in anime) than to be immediately discarded.

I don't think you're understanding what I'm talking about.

For every cool filler like the driver's license episode, there's bullshit like the og dragonball time room which is time travel before time travel is a thing, ofc it never gets acknowledged in the android arc because it would trivialize Bulma building the time machine.
Or stuff like the villains keeping their bodies in the afterlife when it was specifically stated that only people who died honorably could (yes even the anime states this).
Or the Garlic Jr arc even happening: in order to happen Movie 1 needs to happen but as we know with dbz movies, they don't really fit in the timeline, so here the anime continuity of events isn't even coherent with itself, that's what I meant when I said that fillers makes DragonBall an even more convoluted story, it doesn't make sense in it's own logic, at all.
And there's a long list of things that not only contradict that original source material, but NEED to be ignored and not explained by the show itself otherwise they break the story

[taikufuru]

I think it was you who didn't understand my point.

The Garlic Jr. movie is part of the Dragon Ball Z continuity. This is explicitly stated in the series itself, whether you like the content or not, whether you find it incoherent or not. That's what I'm talking about.

It's not about being good or bad, incoherent or coherent, it's about what the series is. The Garlic Jr arc exist and are available to watch. They are part of the 291 episodes of the series.

(In fact, there is no explicit reference to the events of the other films, only Garlic Jr)

[JulieYBM]

A work speaks for itself. It's bizarre that you have to break it down so that it makes sense in your subjective logic. It's not like we have to choose which episodes are worth it or not, since most of the time, these "fillers" are well integrated into the overall story and are just as valid as the content being adapted.

• When Goku is seen driving just before the Cell Games, they are reminded of the filler episode of Driver's License.

• While the battle against the Saiyans is taking place, Bulma, Muten Roshi and the others are shown what happened on television. When they meet up after the battle, every moment is reconfigured to be consistent with the "filler".

• The adventures of the Great Saiyaman take place in a completely different way than what we see in the manga.

So what? It makes sense in its own logic as an adaptation. If it happened one way in the manga, it is completely valid for it to happen differently in its animated adaptation.

And from the various examples, it is more common for "fillers" to be integrated into the main story (after all, they are just one story in anime) than to be immediately discarded.

I don't think you're understanding what I'm talking about.

For every cool filler like the driver's license episode, there's bullshit like the og dragonball time room which is time travel before time travel is a thing, ofc it never gets acknowledged in the android arc because it would trivialize Bulma building the time machine.
Or stuff like the villains keeping their bodies in the afterlife when it was specifically stated that only people who died honorably could (yes even the anime states this).
Or the Garlic Jr arc even happening: in order to happen Movie 1 needs to happen but as we know with dbz movies, they don't really fit in the timeline, so here the anime continuity of events isn't even coherent with itself, that's what I meant when I said that fillers makes DragonBall an even more convoluted story, it doesn't make sense in it's own logic, at all.
And there's a long list of things that not only contradict that original source material, but NEED to be ignored and not explained by the show itself otherwise they break the story

Don't think about it so much then. Those original ideas from the anime staff are cool, if anything they should modify the comic material when adapting it to let their original ideas work within the internal continuity of the animated projects.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I think it was you who didn't understand my point.

The Garlic Jr. movie is part of the Dragon Ball Z continuity. This is explicitly stated in the series itself, whether you like the content or not, whether you find it incoherent or not. That's what I'm talking about.

It's not about being good or bad, incoherent or coherent, it's about what the series is. The Garlic Jr arc exist and are available to watch. They are part of the 291 episodes of the series.

(In fact, there is no explicit reference to the events of the other films, only Garlic Jr)

You keep not understanding while telling me that I'm the one who didn't understand

Let me try again. Yes, I already acknowledged that Garlic Jr is part of the continuity, it's literally in my comment! What I'm saying is that since it is canon to dbz, the Movie 1 has to be canon, and there's no place in the timeline to properly fit it, so it only creates plot holes and inconsistencies with the main plot. When does that movie take place? Clearly before raditz, it can't happen after, but we know that the Raditz fight is the first Goku and Piccolo teamup. Forcing it to fit only caues problems with the narrative: it's clear they haven't seen themselves since the 23 Tenkaichi Tournament.
Same with the other examples that I provided of the time chamber and the villains keeping their bodies. Nobody is arguing they're not part of the anime, the point is that them being there does nothing but fill dragonball with even more plot holes and problems of internal logic.
So my original point, that the fans tend to ignore fillers because the show itself does most of the time, still stands. Sure they're part of the continuity technically but they're shoved in the backdrawer, if the show cared they would have offerend explanations and modified the manga material accordingly to make things fit.

Don't think about it so much then. Those original ideas from the anime staff are cool, if anything they should modify the comic material when adapting it to let their original ideas work within the internal continuity of the animated projects.

It doesn't bother me that much, I just wanted to let taikufuru understand that the anime is absolutely not coherent within intself. Stuff like Garlic Jr being part of the continuity of dbz is obviously true, but that doesn't mean that his placement is any less jarring and forced. That first movie literaly can't happen in the timeline that we are shown.
I agree with you that if the anime wanted to go its own route then it should have modified the manga material accordingly to make everything flow seamlessly, but they didn't do that. They could have modified the line about only good and honorable souls keeping their bodies for example.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

It's absolutely crazy to me people are doing to still fit Daima into DBS, from the moment Shin defused it was obviously it was a new continuity. I watched BoG in theatres day after the last episode of Daima there is absolutely no way the two fit at all.

Daima being a separate continuity does not invalidate DBS it will still exist, it is still being marked enjoy what you enjoy.

This fandom cares way too much about canon that people just can't let themselves enjoy things for what they are.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I watched BoG in theatres day after the last episode of Daima there is absolutely no way the two fit at all.

Daima actually fits if you watch it after Battle of Gods, rather than before.

[JulieYBM]

Daima fits if you understand that you are probably just a better writer who places priority into weird little continuity shit that he doesn't care about or care about having someone else track.