Toyotaro Is Not the Right Successor. To Me, Dragon Ball Ends with Daima

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Vegeta as a domesticated house husband was a pretty logical conclusion to where his character ended in the Boo arc and I found that more refreshing than Super trying to make him a co-lead.

There was nothing logical about him deciding to stop training and settling for a form (ssj2) that wasn't relevant since Cell/early Buu. I'd say Daima gave us the best version of a post-Buu arc Vegeta. He was similar to his GT self in that he was no longer obsessed with Goku, but unlike in GT he kept training and unlocked Ssj3, which is similar to how he kept getting stronger in Super, just without regressing as a character.

[Koitsukai]

Toyo's DBS is somewhere in between the perfect balance of the cast the original manga had and the Goku Time from GT.

RoF: the gang is just recreating the Super 17 fight. Job until Goku saves the day with his finger. But that was Toriyama, not Toyo.
U6: Piccolo was there, sure, but Gohan and Buu were purposely left out to make room for Goku and Vegeta to showcase their new forms.
Black arc: Trunks was brought back to be a nurse. It's all Goku and Vegeta but for the final blow that Trunks got to do.
ToP: The original gang came back but they were sidelined greatly. The anime did more with them. But, 17 and Freeza got to score the late-minute winner.
Moro arc: Aside from Mr. Buu's brief part, and Gohan and 17 stalling Saganbo, it was all about Goku and Vegeta, and Merus.
Granola arc: GT 2.0 x10
SH, its prequel and its follow up were the only times DBS welcomed with open arms the non-MCs.

[Zephyr]

Vegeta as a domesticated house husband was a pretty logical conclusion to where his character ended in the Boo arc and I found that more refreshing than Super trying to make him a co-lead.

There was nothing logical about him deciding to stop training and settling for a form (ssj2) that wasn't relevant since Cell/early Buu. I'd say Daima gave us the best version of a post-Buu arc Vegeta. He was similar to his GT self in that he was no longer obsessed with Goku, but unlike in GT he kept training and unlocked Ssj3, which is similar to how he kept getting stronger in Super, just without regressing as a character.

Look, I really like Vegeta as a character, he's one of my favorites. But there's plenty of logic in someone recognizing that they've hit their limit and retiring from the race, just like every rival before him. I argue it's basically essential to Goku's own character arc, which culminates in training Oob (the new "big fish").

Staying in the race (unlike every rival before him), such that he unlocks, in the span of a few months, a form that was previously only acquired by a dead guy in heaven and a fusion (leading to the very logical and long-standing fandom inference that the state was abnormal and unlikely to be achievable through normal means), makes him seem unnaturally and inorganically special.

Like I'm not opposed to keeping him around as a major rival. But if you're going to let what should otherwise be old news stick around past the expiration date, then you might as well bring other past rivals into the mix, like Piccolo and Tenshinhan. They've both never been able to truly settle their scores with Goku, and they've certainly never had the chance to settle scores with Vegeta that they would logically have. Imagine also throwing Freeza into that mix. The spiteful motivation! The feuds! The drama! The begrudging bonding and reconciliation! In multiple directions!

With the way Vegeta is written and depicted beginning with the Kanzenban's revised ending, there's a shift from "Goku is just that guy", to "Goku and another person who just so happens to be of the same race are both that guy". Vindicating Vegeta's own hype in himself and his casual racism is an extremely lame narrative choice. The only silver lining is that Vegeta is, for the most part, always stuck a step or two behind Goku. But that's still colored by the Kanzenban ending's vibe of "Vegeta is never taking his logical exit".

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Look, I really like Vegeta as a character, he's one of my favorites. But there's plenty of logic in someone recognizing that they've hit their limit and retiring from the race, just like every rival before him. I argue it's basically essential to Goku's own character arc, which culminates in training Oob (the new "big fish").

Vegeta in GT and Daima was not in a race against Goku, he was in a race against himself. Vegeta says as much in GT, that he doesn't want to reach Ssj4 to keep up with Goku, but rather to test his own capabilities as a warrior. In Daima, Vegeta is very confident and comfortable as a Ssj3, even after Goku demonstrates Ssj4. It's only in Super where he's back to his Cell arc obsession with Goku.

[BernardoCairo]

I don’t really mind Vegeta being the co-protagonist. His personality works well with Goku’s, and they have a great dynamic, both in mindset and fighting style. Plus, Vegeta’s popularity speaks for itself, sometimes even outshining Goku. There’s still a lot more they could do with his character if they wanted to.
Broly, though, kind of feels like a third wheel. I think he’d work better as Goku’s disciple. He’d make a cool duo with Oob, kind of like Goku and Kuririn back at the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai.
As for Freeza, I think he’s best as the classic bad guy. His irredeemable nature is part of the fun.

[MasenkoHA]

You know who this franchise really needs to succeed Toriyama?
Have them recruit Tara Gilesbie, Toriyama's humor is nothing next to hers.
I mean, Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way would wipe the floor with Goku and Vegeta.

Goku will slit to his wrist to Linkin Park after losing a fight and Vegeta will become a bisexual goth boy after Bulma, a stupid prep, leaves him

[BernardoCairo]

Vegeta in GT and Daima was not in a race against Goku, he was in a race against himself. Vegeta says as much in GT, that he doesn't want to reach Ssj4 to keep up with Goku, but rather to test his own capabilities as a warrior. In Daima, Vegeta is very confident and comfortable as a Ssj3, even after Goku demonstrates Ssj4. It's only in Super where he's back to his Cell arc obsession with Goku.

I agree with this. Goku was never biologically special, no more than Vegeta at least. He was just the guy with a great mentality, which Vegeta acknowledged during his fight with Boo. As long as Vegeta has a similar mindset now, I don't see why he shouldn't keep up with Goku.
He has also had far more development than the other rivals (and this is coming from a Piccolo fan). Comparing his role to theirs is kind of like missing the forest for the trees, in my opinion.

[JulieYBM]

You know who this franchise really needs to succeed Toriyama?
Have them recruit Tara Gilesbie, Toriyama's humor is nothing next to hers.
I mean, Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way would wipe the floor with Goku and Vegeta.

Goku will slit to his wrist to Linkin Park after losing a fight and Vegeta will become a bisexual goth boy after Bulma, a stupid prep, leaves him

Bisexual Goth Boy?!

We have to make this happen. It is a moral imperative.

[Zephyr]

Vegeta in GT and Daima was not in a race against Goku, he was in a race against himself. Vegeta says as much in GT, that he doesn't want to reach Ssj4 to keep up with Goku, but rather to test his own capabilities as a warrior. In Daima, Vegeta is very confident and comfortable as a Ssj3, even after Goku demonstrates Ssj4. It's only in Super where he's back to his Cell arc obsession with Goku.

In GT, sure (aside from the "rivalry with Goku" clip show that plays in his head while he's showering). In Daima? He was frequently competing with Goku over who got to fight the Tamagami and Gomah. He was also explicitly upset at the notion of Goku possibly keeping a new transformation a secret from him. This is all the same old Vegeta.

As long as Vegeta has a similar mindset now, I don't see why he shouldn't keep up with Goku.

Because, again: vindicating Vegeta's egotistical hype and casual racism is lame, and it undermines Oob as Goku's ending. I think those are forests that are being overlooked in favor of the exciting and shiny new tree of "Vegeta finally got Super Saiyan 3!!!!!!"

[BernardoCairo]

Because, again: vindicating Vegeta's egotistical hype and casual racism is lame, and it undermines Oob as Goku's ending.

I think Vegeta can grow as a warrior on his own, beyond his rivalry with Goku. In fact, Goku going off to train Oob doesn’t really change much in my opinion. He just wants a fair rematch with Boo and that is all. If anything, he is more of a mentor than a rival.
Goku can keep chasing the next big challenge while Vegeta continues to grow alongside him. Vegeta is his own man and has come to understand why Goku stayed ahead for so long. The turtle school philosophy pretty much. Now that he applies that to his own training, catching up to Goku feels completely fair.
I have always disliked the retired family man take on Vegeta. GT made it feel so reductive. You can acknowledge that someone is better than you at something and still push yourself to improve and be the best version of yourself.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

You can acknowledge that someone is better than you at something and still push yourself to improve and be the best version of yourself.

THANK YOU.

There seems to be this belief that Vegeta can't do both for some reason. To many fans, for whatever reason, Vegeta must either completely give up training or be obsessed with Goku. Daima has perfectly shown that we can have a Vegeta who's moved on from his obsession with Goku without giving up on bettering himself.

[WittyUsername]

If you ask me, Super on a fundamental level kinda betrays a core idea of Dragon Ball by presenting these godly characters who Goku will seemingly never be able to catch up to. For whatever reason, Beerus is still being used as the benchmark for Goku (and Vegeta) to strive towards, even though there’s at least a handful of beings who are more powerful than him, and to this day, there’s apparently been no real progress on that front either.

In general, I think DBS is a very corporate version of Dragon Ball. It doesn’t seem like it exists because it’s a story Toriyama actually wanted to tell. It exists to keep the brand perpetually going. As a result, it adheres to a certain status quo, which causes everything to feel stagnant. Super Hero is a possible outlier, but even then, Toriyama was told to emphasize Gohan as the co-lead of the film, even though he intended for it to be Piccolo’s movie.

All in all, I would say that Daima feels more distinctly Toriyama in comparison. It’s basically him giving his own personal spin on GT.

[JulieYBM]

Gokuu will eventually surpass Beers. We've seen Gokuu steadily becoming stronger and achieving something that not even Beers has been able to achieve, seemingly—Ultra Instinct. The issue is that Beers isn't really having much of a character arc. There should have been a point—either during the Tournament of Power or even sooner—where Beers had a moment where he was inspired to start training again, to try and grow stronger. Perhaps the idea is that Beers will reach that point after being defeated by Gokuu in the future, but I think that's an unwise decision. If Beers is going to be in a scene, he needs to be having an thread running through those scenes.

[miguelnuva1]

Dragonball Super was heavily implying Goku and Vegeta teaming up to beat Beerus as final goal.

[AliTheZombie13]

Dragonball Super was heavily implying Goku and Vegeta teaming up to beat Beerus as final goal.

Unless Beerus was actively threatening Earth again, that would be incredibly out of character for both of them.
9 out of 10 times, things in this franchise are resolved 1 vs. 1.

[Peach]

I don't like the idea of a single successor, personally.

We need to go the Lupin the Third route. Many different creators across different companies giving their own interpretations, styles, and tones without the continuity mattering. If we have a single "heir," it's regressive, limits the continuation to a single unfulfilling voice, and limits others from pouring their hearts into this series.

[Yuji]

Dragonball Super was heavily implying Goku and Vegeta teaming up to beat Beerus as final goal.

Unless Beerus was actively threatening Earth again, that would be incredibly out of character for both of them.
9 out of 10 times, things in this franchise are resolved 1 vs. 1.

And yet most of the arcs in Super have been emphasizing teamwork for those two as an end goal. Resurrection F: Whis saying the two together could beat Beerus; Zamasu: Toriyama's original script having the two beat Merged Zamasu together; Tournament of Power: teamwork is a crucial theme and the reason behind Jiren's defeat, both it, and his unwillingness to partake in it; Moro & Granolah: not Toriyama written but both end with Goku & Vegeta using their new abilities together to defeat the boss. Plus the multiple prophecies by the oracle fish that BOTH will become Beerus' rival, not just one.

It's possible Toriyama may have envisioned a rematch between Beerus and Goku facing off 1v1 but then it transitions into Goku & Vegeta teaming up willingly. Or, in typical Toriyama fashion, perhaps Beerus would have just been surpassed organically as Goku got stronger, without the story making a big fuss out of it or a need for a rematch.

[MCDaveG]

Honestly, Akira Toriyama as creator, illustrator and writer of the series is irreplacable.
And I agree that his story contributions ended with Daima, which is sad to me as well... not questioning the overal quality of the show,
but I had always loved his signature style from both art and storytelling points, he had a great sense of design and this kind of thinking was prevalent in both the art and story, including Daima.

I won't be as hardcore to say, that Toyotaro is not the right succesor and who knows what goes behind the scenes, but in this kind of sense, nobody is and can be.

With Toyotaro, he's skilled in the art department, I have no idea, how he is with stories (I do not coun't the AF from aeons ago, as people evolve and it was a fan manga with weird story, that nobody oversaw and Toriyama didn't had any influence in it or him in that regard.).
While he's getting tad better, his paneling and sense of pacing is not on par with Toriyama at all... but to be frank, I've tried to read One Piece as a manga years ago and thought that it's unintelligible mess visually, coming into it from the anime.
And most western comics, be it Marvel or DC, are hit or miss in this regard as well.

Toriyama had a huge talent, skill and was professional designer. Only few people do stand-out in various fields and he did with his work, even influencing whole genre and pop culture.
This makes finding the right successor nearly impossible. More so in manga, where you do both the art and writing the stories.

I can only hope for some quality story like a movie in the future, that will be able to capture his spirit and shenanigans, but that will always be more of a team effort.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Toriyama had a huge talent, skill and was professional designer. Only few people do stand-out in various fields and he did with his work, even influencing whole genre and pop culture. This makes finding the right successor nearly impossible. More so in manga, where you do both the art and writing the stories.

I think the issue facing them is that anyone who's talented enough to continue Toriyama's work is likely already an established mangaka with their own series. What they end up stuck with are people like Toyotaro who aren't terrible by any means, but also nowhere near Toriyama's level of talent. Toriyama's writing style was very unique to him, it's not something you can copy easily. We've seen Dragon Ball content without his involvement (GT and old movies); the results were not good. Even with him being involved with the revival era, things were also not good unless he was directly hands on with everything (Battle of Gods and Daima). I'm not sure how popular of an opinion this is, but the powers at be should seriously consider wrapping up Dragon Ball as a story and leaving it at that. Let Toyotaro wrap up Super through whatever he and Toriyama discussed about Black Freeza, animate it alongside Moro and Granola, then call it a day. They're more than likely gong to cause more harm than good to the brand if they try to move on without Toriyama.

[miguelnuva1]

Toriyama had a huge talent, skill and was professional designer. Only few people do stand-out in various fields and he did with his work, even influencing whole genre and pop culture. This makes finding the right successor nearly impossible. More so in manga, where you do both the art and writing the stories.

I think the issue facing them is that anyone who's talented enough to continue Toriyama's work is likely already an established mangaka with their own series. What they end up stuck with are people like Toyotaro who aren't terrible by any means, but also nowhere near Toriyama's level of talent. Toriyama's writing style was very unique to him, it's not something you can copy easily. We've seen Dragon Ball content without his involvement (GT and old movies); the results were not good. Even with him being involved with the revival era, things were also not good unless he was directly hands on with everything (Battle of Gods and Daima). I'm not sure how popular of an opinion this is, but the powers at be should seriously consider wrapping up Dragon Ball as a story and leaving it at that. Let Toyotaro wrap up Super through whatever he and Toriyama discussed about Black Freeza, animate it alongside Moro and Granola, then call it a day. They're more than likely gong to cause more harm than good to the brand if they try to move on without Toriyama.

Dragonball is a franchise that has a little bit for everyone.

While you feel Battle of Gods and Daim were great the old movies had a lot of fans and once again Broly was the arguably the best thing the franchise has had since the orginal 42 volumes.

I for one would prefer a Movie 5 or M8 for example over Daima any day.