Would removing Neva's macguffin Super Saiyan 4 fix Daima for you?

[The Dark Knight]

I dare say that GT Pan is written far better than DBZ Vegeta. In GT the worst thing that Pan did was disobey her parents, while Vegeta he not only helped the villains out but attacked his own son and allies when he was the hero. Vegeta even killed hundreds if not thousand, just because he wanted to fight Goku. Pan never made any decision that made the situation worse and she never killed anyone innocent.

It's almost as if Vegeta was a villain during those parts of the story...

[Kenji]

The problem isn't even that Vegeta is a villain, the problem is that he's absolutely insufferable during it. His inability to learn anything from his repeated outbursts and the heroes' refusal to do anything about it defies logic. He constantly makes remarks about how he's going to screw everyone over for a good fight and kill them if they dare to stop him, and for some bizarre reason, the story treats him like he's not such a bad guy. The fact that Vegeta is screwing things up so often, threatening to kill everyone so often, and nobody does anything about it makes everybody look stupid and complacent in his outbursts.

Pan is at least given the grace of the heroes considering getting rid of her because she's screwing things up too often, and she actually self-reflects on her actions.

If you want a better comparison, I'd say Piccolo is an example of a redemption arc done right. Vegeta's is a mess.

[super michael]

I dare and say that GT Pan is written far better than DBZ Vegeta. In GT the worst thing that Pan did was disobey her parents, while Vegeta he not only helped the villains out but attacked his own son and allies when he was the hero. Vegeta even killed hundreds if not thousand, just because he wanted to fight Goku. Pan never made any decision that made the situation worse and she never killed anyone innocent.

As for Videl I think she was falling in love with Gohan when she was learning to fly.

I'm lost for words... being a villain means being badly written??? how is that bad writing? Morals dictate if the writing is good or not? Good writing would be having no villains, then?

A defense of GT Pan from a writing point of view? In 2026? Literally out of words, since we've beaten that horse to death so many times by now it looks like Gas after Black Freeza stomped his skull, and it still seems to be the one thing people agree on: that GT Pan's writing is insulting.

Vegeta wasn't a villain in the Cell Saga and Buu Saga, yet every action he did hurt his allies. He even destroyed the potara not once but two times and refuses to even use the fusion dance.


Pan she grew up and matured during her adventure with Goku, Trunks and Giru. She wanted to protect other planets.

[JulieYBM]

Every day, I think about that one fan art—I think it was by fenyo?—of Piccolo confronting and having a stand-off Vegeta right after Vegeta kills Artificial Human #19—and presumably #20—and I think about a world where Vegeta got actual pushback for his bullshit.

The Artificial Humans arc would be so much more interesting if Vegeta couldn't just be a big bastard throughout the arc. Almost like a more aggressive version of the reaction to Gokuu in the Tournament of Power?

[Koitsukai]

I dare and say that GT Pan is written far better than DBZ Vegeta. In GT the worst thing that Pan did was disobey her parents, while Vegeta he not only helped the villains out but attacked his own son and allies when he was the hero. Vegeta even killed hundreds if not thousand, just because he wanted to fight Goku. Pan never made any decision that made the situation worse and she never killed anyone innocent.

As for Videl I think she was falling in love with Gohan when she was learning to fly.

I'm lost for words... being a villain means being badly written??? how is that bad writing? Morals dictate if the writing is good or not? Good writing would be having no villains, then?

A defense of GT Pan from a writing point of view? In 2026? Literally out of words, since we've beaten that horse to death so many times by now it looks like Gas after Black Freeza stomped his skull, and it still seems to be the one thing people agree on: that GT Pan's writing is insulting.

Vegeta wasn't a villain in the Cell Saga and Buu Saga, yet every action he did hurt his allies. He even destroyed the potara not once but two times and refuses to even use the fusion dance.


Pan she grew up and matured during her adventure with Goku, Trunks and Giru. She wanted to protect other planets.

So ethics and morals say if a character has been written well or not, then.

[kiarasuraru]

I'm lost for words... being a villain means being badly written??? how is that bad writing? Morals dictate if the writing is good or not? Good writing would be having no villains, then?

A defense of GT Pan from a writing point of view? In 2026? Literally out of words, since we've beaten that horse to death so many times by now it looks like Gas after Black Freeza stomped his skull, and it still seems to be the one thing people agree on: that GT Pan's writing is insulting.

Vegeta wasn't a villain in the Cell Saga and Buu Saga, yet every action he did hurt his allies. He even destroyed the potara not once but two times and refuses to even use the fusion dance.


Pan she grew up and matured during her adventure with Goku, Trunks and Giru. She wanted to protect other planets.

So ethics and morals say if a character has been written well or not, then.

I can't believe Freeza was badly written all along... The mostest baddest written at that too...

[The Dark Knight]

Vegeta wasn't a villain in the Cell Saga and Buu Saga, yet every action he did hurt his allies.

Vegeta didn't become one of the good guys until he sacrificed himself against Buu, but up to that point he was by no means anyone's friend or on anyone's side.

[BernardoCairo]

Vegeta didn't become one of the good guys until he sacrificed himself against Buu, but up to that point he was by no means anyone's friend or on anyone's side.

Yes. His transformation from villain to good person was gradual. In the Android arc, he was still a horrible person who only cared about himself. However, he already showed signs of improvement by connecting with Trunks and apologizing for Gohan/trying to help him in the final battle.
Goku did nothing about it, as he no longer saw Vegeta as a threat. Of course, he also wanted to continue fighting Vegeta. But, at the same time, he now considered him primarily a rival (even going so far as to say that he was a genius and could see beyond the Super Saiyajin transformation as well). From Goku's point of view, Vegeta wasn't dangerous. He mocked Vegeta, saying he was weaker (possibly trying to motivate him to become even stronger), and even showed him the Room of Spirit and Time.
Other characters, like Kuririn and Tenshinhan, still felt awkward around Vegeta or were afraid of him. But Goku could see beyond that. When he returned seven years later, history repeated itself, and Goku told Vegeta directly that he knew he wasn't evil. Something similar happened with Piccolo. He was still talking about world domination during the Android arc, but Kuririn knew he wasn't serious. He even said something like, "He's just like Goku and Vegeta, all he truly wants is to be the strongest."

[Kenji]

Honestly, who cares if Vegeta is good or evil in the Artificial Human arc?

Multiple characters get a chance during that arc to get rid of him and decide not to follow through. Multiple characters go through extreme lengths to stop the villains, from merging with their other half, to building remotes, to training in ethereal spaces, but no one decides to do anything about Vegeta. Why? Because he's "not a threat"?

He proves time and again he's a liability, willing to kill innocent people and doom the entire timeline for the sake of his own ego, something the characters are trying to prevent. He seems like a pretty big threat to me, but the characters don't seem to treat him as such. The excuses as to why keep varying, but the fact remains that everybody lets Vegeta do as he pleases without consequence.

[super michael]

Vegeta wasn't a villain in the Cell Saga and Buu Saga, yet every action he did hurt his allies. He even destroyed the potara not once but two times and refuses to even use the fusion dance.


Pan she grew up and matured during her adventure with Goku, Trunks and Giru. She wanted to protect other planets.

So ethics and morals say if a character has been written well or not, then.

I can't believe Freeza was badly written all along... The mostest baddest written at that too...

I guess that shows why my reason isn't good.

[BernardoCairo]

Honestly, who cares if Vegeta is good or evil in the Artificial Human arc?

Multiple characters get a chance during that arc to get rid of him and decide not to follow through. Multiple characters go through extreme lengths to stop the villains, from merging with their other half, to building remotes, to training in ethereal spaces, but no one decides to do anything about Vegeta. Why? Because he's "not a threat"?

He proves time and again he's a liability, willing to kill innocent people and doom the entire timeline for the sake of his own ego, something the characters are trying to prevent. He seems like a pretty big threat to me, but the characters don't seem to treat him as such. The excuses as to why keep varying, but the fact remains that everybody lets Vegeta do as he pleases without consequence.

Only Goku didn't see him as a threat, the other characters simply went along with him. Piccolo didn't fully trust him, Kuririn and Gohan were afraid of him for a long time, Tenshinhan hated him, etc. They were even scared when Vegeta showed his Super Saiyajin form. But Goku liked having him around as a rival, and the group trusted him. Kuririn did so even before Vegeta ceased to be a threat. He did what Goku wanted and kept him alive.
From Goku's point of view, I don't think it was that bad. He was almost always one or two steps ahead of Vegeta. He could have sprung into action if Vegeta tried anything. And, deep down, he believed in Vegeta, unlike the others. Let's remember that this is the guy who kept Piccolo alive, right after Piccolo ripped a hole in his chest and broke every bone in his body. Of course, he wanted Kami-Sama to stay alive, but he also gave Piccolo another chance and trusted in his own abilities to deal with him, if necessary, someday. He would have even given Freeza a second chance at life, despite hating him and knowing the things he had done.

[Kenji]

This is honestly running away from the point:

Both Vegeta and Pan, regardless whether they're written to be anti-heroes, good guys or straight-up villains, are written on purpose to act shitty and having to eventually overcome their insecurities and become better people. That's called "character arc" and it is, in fact, a good thing for a story to have.

The comparison I was trying to make is, does Vegeta get a free pass for his quite honestly infuriating behavior just because he's a villain and Pan is a good guy or something? What does that change for their arc, exactly?

Is Vegeta supposed to be a villain? OK, then why doesn't anybody deal with him while he makes everything worse? That makes everyone else as infuriating as Pan. Oh, no, wait. He's actually not that bad and the others believe in him? Then he's as infuriating as Pan, if not more.

When you actually to stop to analyze it, these two character arcs are exactly the same.
"Well, hers was not convincing enough." It was to me, and at the same time, I can easily argue Vegeta's was even less.

The other two big differences is, GT wasn't written by Toriyama, and Pan is female whereas Vegeta is male.
In either case, I think the hatred for the character is extremely forced and overblown.

[JulieYBM]

The Pan line of discussion has me wondering: Do people not just feel kind of stupid getting mad about kids? Whether real or fictional? Like, we're adults, we've all been there. Who among us has not been a bratty, dumb, inexperienced nine year old girl? Why is this something that I would need to take a hardline, "She's a bad character because she doesn't respect Gokuu" or whatever nonsense stance, when the obviously correct point-of-view to have is, "Pan's character is done a disservice by not more clearly articulating a growth in her character due to the systemic sexist treatment of not just female characters in media, but in the manner in which women who work in the creative industries are treated?"

I just don't really feel like people—mostly men, sometimes women!—know how to talk about girls and women and that's kinda really bad and should change.

[BernardoCairo]

This is honestly running away from the point:

Oh, yeah. I wasn't talking about Pan. I don't understand the comparison, honestly. They are both "annoying" by design, but that's about it. Two very different characters in different moments of the franchise.

Personally, I don't have much of an opinion about her. GT as a whole is very boring at times. I don't like most of the characters, especially Goku. But I don't have any strong feelings towards her.

[super michael]

I never had any problem with DBZ Vegeta and GT Pan, just because I mentioned the character flaws doesn't mean I hate them. DBS is when I didn't like some characters.

I remember how cool it was when Pan managed to do her first Kamehameha to help Goku out of danger and defeat Oceanus Shenron.

The comparison I was trying to make is, does Vegeta get a free pass for his quite honestly infuriating behavior just because he's a villain and Pan is a good guy or something? What does that change for their arc, exactly?

This I agree one character gets a free pass, while the other doesn't get a free pass. It is either they both get a free pass or they don't get a free pass. Here is another example Chiaotzu and Vegeta blew up to tried and kill their enemy, although everyone only remembers Vegeta sacrifice but not Chiaotzu even though they did the same thing.

The other two big differences is, GT wasn't written by Toriyama, and Pan is female whereas Vegeta is male.
In either case, I think the hatred for the character is extremely forced and overblown.

Sometimes GT gets a lot of hate, since Toriyama wasn't involved with it. People assume that GT would have been better if Toriyama was involved, at least back in the day. Nowaday I don't know what member believes now.
Does people really care about the character gender? Are fans more harsh just for their gender alone?