Canon or not? That is the(my) question.

[Phenomenol]

Again, the TV series occasionally refers to the movies. What do you make of that?

No they don't. The Anime refers to the Original Printed Comic version. You read Toriyama just say that the Movies stray away from the Origninal Printed Version. Please don't contradict Toriyama.

I know there's a site. ^^;
My point still stands: he only provided some ideas and some sketches, sometimes. The guy was pretty busy with his manga, and you really shouldn't underestimate Tôei's input.

Quite the opposite actually, you shouldn't underestimate Toriyama's input on the Anime. That was what the so called "rumor" was about.

No, it doesn't. If it were that simple, I guess that would also make Ozotto canon. Heh. ^^;

You read it from Toriyama's own mouth, he considers Dragonball GT a "side stroy" and the Dragonball Movies in a "different "dimension" from his comic. Dragonball Anime/Manga is in CONTINUITY and it is Canon.

[Olivier Hague]

Again, the TV series occasionally refers to the movies. What do you make of that?

No they don't.

Garlic Jr., goddamnit.

Quite the opposite actually, you shouldn't underestimate Toriyama's input on the Anime.

*sigh*
He provided some ideas and some sketches. What about the other filler characters though (and there's a bunch of them)? Yeah, he didn't.
And since you know there's a site, maybe you should actually read it: "We also learn that for many story points, Toriyama would typically come up with a vague idea and leave a memo for the TV series staff to, essentially, go wild with and develop a full story from" (emphasis mine).
So no, Toriyama didn't "make" the filler. He helped occasionally (just like he did for the movies).

You read it from Toriyama's own mouth, he considers Dragonball GT a "side stroy" and the Dragonball Movies in a "different "dimension" from his comic. Dragonball Anime/Manga is in CONTINUITY and it is Canon.

That last part, I didn't hear from Toriyama's mouth.

And again, simple logic. If the TV series (did you know that the movies were "anime" too? am I trying too hard with this?) contain references to the movies and the movies are supposed to be set in a different dimension (or several different dimensions? heh), you have a problem.
Also, the TV series contradict the manga on several occasions, so you obviously can't argue that they're entirely in continuity or canonic.

But hey, go ahead. I love repeating myself.

[Dayspring]

Again, the TV series occasionally refers to the movies. What do you make of that?

No they don't. The Anime refers to the Original Printed Comic version. You read Toriyama just say that the Movies stray away from the Origninal Printed Version. Please don't contradict Toriyama.

Yes they do. There are plenty of instances where filler from the anime contradicted the manga. Examples: Piccolo destroys Goku's pod. Gregory's existence. Examples where the movies get shoved into the anime: the entire Garlic Jr. Saga is a sequel to movie 1. Haiya dragon's appearences are sequels to movie 3.

You read it from Toriyama's own mouth, he considers Dragonball GT a "side stroy" and the Dragonball Movies in a "different "dimension" from his comic. Dragonball Anime/Manga is in CONTINUITY and it is Canon.

He was most likely generlizing, as only movies 1, 9, and 13 can fit in the continuity more easily than a lot of the anime's filler. Toriyama was probably just refering to the ones that can't fit into the continuity in any possible way, like movies 2-4 (would have to take place in an alternate dimension where they defeat the Saiyans with at most only Gohan or Yamcha dieing), etc.

[Phenomenol]

Garlic Jr., goddamnit.

So wait, you wanna nit and pick at the anime for having an obvious out of continuity saga which refered to the movies which is also out of continuity?:roll: I know why don't I post where Toriyama's Original printed version refers to the Dragonabll ANIME by adding Bardock. I didn't see you #$%@ing and moaning about that reference.

*sigh* He provided some ideas and some sketches. What about the other filler characters though (and there's a bunch of them)? Yeah, he didn't.And since you know there's a site, maybe you should actually read it: "We also learn that for many story points, Toriyama would typically come up with a vague idea and leave a memo for the TV series staff to, essentially, go wild with and develop a full story from" (emphasis mine). So no, Toriyama didn't "make" the filler. He helped occasionally (just like he did for the movies).

Doesn't change the fact that he was involved and who knows what ideas were used, LOL you act as if every little detail is going to be revealed.

That last part, I didn't hear from Toriyama's mouth. Also, the TV series contradict the manga on several occasions, so you obviously can't argue that they're entirely in continuity or canonic. But hey, go ahead. I love repeating myself.

Whoopdey do, so now your going to try and say that the Anime contradicts the manga. LOL! the Original printed version had contradictions also, every damn comic and cartoon has contradictions, so don't act as if dragonball Z anime is the only one with the problems. The fact is the Anime is in continuity and refers to the MANGA which makes it canon.

Yes they do. There are plenty of instances where filler from the anime contradicted the manga. Examples: Piccolo destroys Goku's pod. Gregory's existence. Examples where the movies get shoved into the anime: the entire Garlic Jr. Saga is a sequel to movie 1. Haiya dragon's appearences are sequels to movie 3.

Nitpicking, There are times when the Manga contradicts itself hence the reason why Toriyama remade it but only did the ending because he would have picked his manga apart. The Anime refers to the comic version and that is FACT! you nitpicking at scenes that have no barring on the story is weak.

He was most likely generlizing, as only movies 1, 9, and 13 can fit in the continuity more easily than a lot of the anime's filler. Toriyama was probably just refering to the ones that can't fit into the continuity in any possible way, like movies 2-4 (would have to take place in an alternate dimension where they defeat the Saiyans with at most only Gohan or Yamcha dieing), etc.

Toriyama said "DRAGONBALL movies" not specififc ones. It is obviouis that he meant all.

[Coola Yagami]

Trunks never even used a sword in GT to begin with. It only appeared in GT's opening theme animation (and the cinema to DB GT Final Bout), but never in the actual show.

[Dayspring]

Phenomenol: Toriyama says the movies are a different dimension from the manga, not the anime. My "nitpicks" as you call them, can all be part of the anime's continuity, therefore. It's possible, as a result, that Toriyama considers the anime to be a separate dimension from the manga, but both are canon.

So for the movies that fit continuity-wise into the anime, it's possible that they are part of the anime's dimension. The other's are their own dimension.

Coola: Fair enough, however, the Ryuken is used in GT...

[Olivier Hague]

Garlic Jr., goddamnit.

So wait, you wanna nit and pick at the anime for having an obvious out of continuity saga which refered to the movies which is also out of continuity?:roll:

It's called an "argument", and if you're just going to ignore them, perhaps I shouldn't bother discussing this with you.

I know why don't I post where Toriyama's Original printed version refers to the Dragonabll ANIME by adding Bardock. I didn't see you #$%@ing and moaning about that reference.

Why should I? Barduck shows up in the manga, therefore he's canonic.
Of course, that doesn't necessarily make his story as told in the TV special canonic...

Doesn't change the fact that he was involved and who knows what ideas were used

Where did I say that he wasn't involved at all, exactly? Please pay attention.
My point is that he didn't "make the filler", contrarily to what you said here.

Whoopdey do, so now your going to try and say that the Anime contradicts the manga. LOL!

Yeah, "LOL". It does.

the Original printed version had contradictions also, every damn comic and cartoon has contradictions

When the TV series changes Cargo's murderer, for example, what does that mean? Does Cargo turn into a tragic version of Schrödinger's cat, somehow killed in two different manners? Of course not.
When contradictions like that happen, the original work generally takes precedence (unless they're correcting a mistake or something like that, I guess). Here, that means the TV version of Cargo's death isn't canonic.

But when the manga contradicts itself (<- emphasis), that only makes it less coherent, not less canonic. That's something else altogether. Please think before you type.

The fact is the Anime is in continuity and refers to the MANGA which makes it canon.

Simply referring to the original work doesn't make something canonic. Come on, now.
And the anime isn't always in continuity (again, Garlic Jr.).

It's possible, as a result, that Toriyama considers the anime to be a separate dimension from the manga, but both are canon.

But how would that work, for Garlic Jr.? How do you include the first "Dragon Ball Z" movie in the continuity of the "Dragon Ball Z" TV series?

And I'm not fond of the "they're all canonic, it's just that they're in separate dimensions" mentality. I mean... Why discuss canon in the first place if you're pretty much going to give each work its own "individual canon" anyway? ^^;

[caejones]

Very very rarely does reading an argument, certainly about DBZ, piss me off. Phenomenol changes that.


So, umm, does anyone besides "lalalala I'm arguing but but will write off everything you say as pointless" think the anime and manga are in continuity? (I.E, that Cargo dies twice in the space of two seconds?).

... *pantpant*.

Dr. Frappe, anyone?

[Dayspring]

**A bunch of stuff in reply to Phenomenol**

Exactly! Couldn't have said it all better myself. So I'll pretend I said it instead of you.

It's possible, as a result, that Toriyama considers the anime to be a separate dimension from the manga, but both are canon.

But how would that work, for Garlic Jr.? How do you include the first "Dragon Ball Z" movie in the continuity of the "Dragon Ball Z" TV series?

And I'm not fond of the "they're all canonic, it's just that they're in separate dimensions" mentality. I mean... Why discuss canon in the first place if you're pretty much going to give each work its own "individual canon" anyway? ^^;

And yet that appears to be the argument Toriyama provides. Maybe he uses "different dimensions" since "continuity" isn't in his vocabulary?

Personally I think there are two official storylines, but not two canon stories. One being the anime and the other the manga. In regards to continuity, I find anything that gets introduced to the story via the anime or movie that seems like something plausible in regards to the manga's story as part of continuity. The only thing introduced that I consider canon is the Bardock special, since Toriyama rewrote a chapter to include him in it. Until Toriyama gives a statement saying otherwise or until he writes a Bardock one-shot with details different from the special, I assume he wanted us to consider the events of the special as the details.

Dr. Frappe, anyone?

I loved the daizenshuu's retcon regarding him. They acknowledge it's a contradiction to the fact that Gero created #8, so they say Dr. Frappe was probably forced to be Gero's assistant when creating him and not #8's sole creator.
But not in the manga though, so still not canon.

[Phenomenol]

Phenomenol: Toriyama says the movies are a different dimension from the manga,[size=18] not the anime[/size]..

Thank you, you just proved the point.

It's called an "argument", and if you're just going to ignore them, perhaps I shouldn't bother discussing this with you.

Don't ignore Bardock coming from the canon Anime which was incorparated into the Canon Manga then.

When the TV series changes Cargo's murderer, for example, what does that mean? Does Cargo turn into a tragic version of Schrödinger's cat, somehow killed in two different manners? Of course not.
When contradictions like that happen, the original work generally takes precedence (unless they're correcting a mistake or something like that, I guess). Here, that means the TV version of Cargo's death isn't canonic.
But when the manga contradicts itself (<- emphasis), that only makes it less coherent, not less canonic. That's something else altogether. Please think before you type.

Cargo's murder? LOL! why don't we talk about the many scenes showing Gohan doing his homework why don't you. That is IRRELEVANT, post something that is actually relevant. Also, when the damn Manga itself has contradictions don't expect the Anime NOT to have any.

Simply referring to the original work doesn't make something canonic. Come on, now.And the anime isn't always in continuity (again, Garlic Jr.).

Yes it does, the Anime is in CONTINUITY otherwise Toriyama would have put the damn Anime in the same category as the Dragonball Movies and GT. Something you fail to understand.

Very very rarely does reading an argument, certainly about DBZ, piss me off. Phenomenol changes that.

People piss me off when they ignore direct quotes from the Author himself.

[Olivier Hague]

Don't ignore Bardock coming from the canon Anime which was incorparated into the Canon Manga then.

When did I ignore that, exactly? Was it when I said "Barduck shows up in the manga, therefore he's canonic"?
Do you even know what words mean?

Cargo's murder? LOL! why don't we talk about the many scenes showing Gohan doing his homework why don't you. That is IRRELEVANT

Well, that's convenient: whenever you're proven wrong, it's irrelevant.

when the damn Manga itself has contradictions don't expect the Anime NOT to have any.

Here we go again... I believe I already explained how that was another matter altogether in my previous message. Maybe you should go and actually read it. Or shut up. One or the other.

the Anime is in CONTINUITY

Yeah, except when it obviously isn't. But hey, that's a minor detail. Besides, whenever it's not in continuity, it's irrelevant, right? Right.

otherwise Toriyama would have put the damn Anime in the same category as the Dragonball Movies and GT.

If you can come up with a quote from Toriyama saying that the TV series (because the movies are "anime" too, remember? yeah, I didn't think so) is canonic, go ahead.
But just because he didn't flat out say it's not set in the exact same "universe" as the original manga (not that he would really have to, as there are several obvious differences between the two), that doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't think so. For example, did I call you "stupid"? Does that necessarily mean I think you're not?

[Phenomenol]

When did I ignore that, exactly? Was it when I said" Barduck shows up in the manga, therefore he's canonic

You ignored the fact that it came from the CANON Anime.

Yeah, except when it obviously isn't. But hey, that's a minor detail. Besides, whenever it's not in continuity, it's irrelevant, right? Right.

Movies are OUT of continuity any one with half a brain cell knows that. Hence the reasons why Toriyama classes them in a "Different Dimension" in other words not canon to his original stroyline.

If you can come up with a quote from Toriyama saying that the TV series (because the movies are "anime" too, remember? yeah, I didn't think so) is canonic, go ahead.

Toriyama didn't have to say anything about the Anime being canon because he had ALREADY classed the DBZ movies and DBGT in those particular interviews!!! but you can't comprehend, takes common sense.

But just because he didn't flat out say it's not set in the exact same "universe" as the original manga (not that he would really have to, as there are several obvious differences between the two), that doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't think so. For example, did I call you "stupid"? Does that necessarily mean I think you're not?

Weak, anyone with SENSE knows that he classed the movies AWAY from the comic version....damn he says it in the interview.....YES.....TORIYAMA said this.....

[Duo]

Phenomenal, why do you care? Is it worth getting all upset (and downright stupid) over what other people thing of what's canon and what isn't to a fictional universe a forgettful japanese man wrote over a decade ago?

If you're going to, at least be coherent and intellligent with what you say - you have yet to do so. I don't need to show you where because Oliver has done so tactfully more than once already and all you do is foam at the mouth and repeat yourself.

[caejones]

Phenomenol, you have an interesting variety of opinions. But you also have the debating skills of a skunk. Admittedly though I'm stupid for letting myself get pissed at your atitude.

Now, let's think about that Toriyama quote you treat as the end-all sollution to the problem of ... answering... the question?

We establish that the movies are a separate universe. Ok, good.
We establish that "[Toriyama] become the viewer". Now, that means he isn't the viewer for the series? Well, he didn't say that, but it makes sense here, because the TV series is (for the most part) an animated version of the comics. I'd imagine from Toriyama's perspective all of the contradictions between the anime and manga would be "nitpicking", as you so demeaningly call it. Because he wrote the storyline... and overall, the details don't make _that_ big a difference to warrant "becoming the viewer" here. But does that change the fact that a character dies multiple ways in the different versions, or that the number of Cell Jrs got confused, or that Gohan does a lot of homework?

You said that Cargo's death is a stupid little detail of unimportance, right? Well, who was watching that scene? Gohan and Kuririn? Now, Gohan got pretty pissed during that entire situation, didn't he? Wouldn't the person he saw committing that murder have an effect on how he views individuals in Freeza's army? Had it been a random henchmen, the army becomes the enemy. Freeza, the overlord is a monster (Check the fight with Freeza; was Freeza just another baddy with hype, or did he already have Gohan's hatred for killing a child?). Dedoria, the escape from Dedoiia that follows is a lot more dramatic since we saw what he's willing and capable of doing.
So, yeah, don't write something off as irrelevent unless, you know, it is.

And out of my own interest: what are some of the manga contradictions? ^^

[Olivier Hague]

You ignored the fact that it came from the CANON Anime.

I could understand if you were simply arguing that the first TV special is canonic (I'm not fond of the idea, myself, but hey), but the TV series as a whole being canonic isn't a "fact", it's an impossibility. Cargo didn't die in two different manners, Garlic Jr. is out of continuity, Mr. Satan didn't challenge Cell alone and with his disciples, etc.

[Dayspring]

Phenomenol: Toriyama says the movies are a different dimension from the manga,[size=18] not the anime[/size]..

Thank you, you just proved the point.

Anybody else confused by how he just completely agreed with me yet continued to argue against that with Olivier?

[caejones]

That's not the most confusing thing that's happened in this thread. o.o.

Hmm. Contradictions out of forgetfulness and intentional, deliberate contradictions are two different things. <-- Cargo's killer reference.

[Olivier Hague]

Contradictions out of forgetfulness and intentional, deliberate contradictions are two different things. <-- Cargo's killer reference.

Maybe it's not exactly "deliberate"...
Sometimes, Tôei had to work on episodes that Toriyama hadn't finished yet. Maybe that's what happened here: the staff was working based on a rough version of that episode, and Toriyama changed his mind about who would kill Cargo in the end.

[caejones]

Hmm, were they that caught up at the time? I suppose it's possible, though.

[Olivier Hague]

Hmm, were they that caught up at the time?

No idea.