Why are certain trained humans so very weak in DBZ?

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Jerseymilk
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Post by Jerseymilk » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:35 am

Teclo wrote:Well you're sort of right and I'm sort of right... Her hair doesn't distinctly stand out or anything but it has a sort of floatiness to it. The main thing, apart from the glow, is that her eyes do the evil-looking SSJ thing. All said, my point still stands; Toriyama drew his Goku-like hero going "SSJ" in the same way he did the Saiyajin males going SSJ and he came up with a female equivalent for Jessica. It was just how one would expect a woman to look if she were to power up and go SSJ so I don't see why it took him until DQVIII to come to terms with it.
Um no. As someone who is a huge fan of the DQ line of games and plays DQ8 extensively, along with the fact I have Jessica equipped with the Sun Crown, therefore she hits ultimate tension level very often, she looks nothing like a SSJ. Those "evil-ish eyes"? She had them when she was possessed by the Sceptre of Trodain too. Are you going to tell me that there she also closely resembled a SSJ? And Angelo's hair? Of course it'll look slightly similar since he resembles Trunks to begin with for gosh sakes! The only one that actually does is Hero. And anyway it's just a little nod and inside joke to DBZ. When designing, he didn't go, "Oh and for Jessica, this is what a female SSJ would look like!" Toriyama's charcaters just tend to have similar key characteristics, that's all. You're simply reading way too much into it.

By the way, it's nothing to do with him taking till DQ8 to come to terms with it. Toriyama only does the designs. Plus there have been plenty of strong females in Toriyama designed games, Ayla, Red, and Aira, just to name a few.
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Post by Xyex » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:36 am

95% of anime isn't drawn by the man who invented SSJ though, is it? And the heroes of anime may often have spiky hair but the key thing here is that the hero's hair goes spiky after he powers up and become super powered.
It's not like DBZ is the only series where hair goes spikey after a transformation.
Anyway, it's not just spiky hair for the hero. He gets the same eyes as a SSJ and the change is particularly highlighted because he normally has the same eyes as non-SSJ Goku or Gohan.
And those eyes are to show... what again? Oh, that's right, anger.
The aura may be a different colour but it's still a glowing aura, the exact same eyes as a SSJ and spiky hair and all brought on by powering up and reaching a state of "high tension".
And almost everyone in Z has glowing auras. Lots of non Saiya-jins have eyes like those (it's part of his art style for crying out loud). And there had to be some sort of change for the High Tension state or it'd be rather bland of a power boost.
IIRC Angelo's hair also lifts up in a way similar to Trunks' when he goes SSJ.
You really need to play the game again. I'll repeat my earlier statement. The Hero is the only one that gets a physical change. Everyone else just gets the glowy light and angry expression.
Toriyama obviously wasn't going to make it identical to SSJ because that would just "break the fourth wall" and detract from the DQ setting but he made it as close as possible without it being a direct copy so it remained a nod to fans rather than making Dragon Quest Z instead.
Toriyama's got a unique and distinctive style. It's easy to pick up similarites between designs of his. And beyond that, hell, I wouldn't doubt he didn't even remember what a Super Saiya-jin even looked like when he was working on the designs of DQ8.
As for Jessica's eyes - they're not merely squinty like they are when she's injured.
I didn't say they were exactly the same. I said they weren't that much different.
They're the exact same as SSJ eyes and when you consider this is the same artist that did the SSJ eyes it doesn't take a genius to figure out the link.
Again, we're talking Toriyama here. He uses that eye design a lot to show anger/evil. What else would you expect him to use for a High Tension expression? There's only a link if you read into it too much looking for what isn't there.
I repeat again; you make your character power up several times in a row, they reach a special state after a while, become much more powerful and change their appearance to one very similar to a SSJ - and the designer was Akira Toriyama. Oh but it's a purple aura rather than a yellow one and Jessica's ponytails don't burst out and change into Goku-esque spiky hair. Silly me, it's totally different.
It is totally different. You're only seeing similarities because you want to see them. Not every spikey haired transformation, even when drawn by Toriyama, has a connection to Super Saiya-jin. We're talking about an artist that uses similar designs constantly. Angelo looks like Trunks. Kalderasha and the guy at the Monster Arena look like skinny versions of Hercule. There's female soldiers around that are basicly wearing pink versions of Chi-Chi's metal bikini. There's other characters who look like characters from other Toriyama works. There's no relation beyond the fact they were drawn by the same person.
Toriyama said he didn't know how a female SSJ would look. Well what could he possibly have meant? If he was referring to their often longer hair. what about SSJ3? i.e. he already drew a SSJ with long hair. If he meant the eyes then why wouldn't they have the same evil eyes as a male SSJ? The eyes he gave Jessica and not entirely dissimilar to #18's eyes. There really isn't anything that he would have been confused over; there's nothing that would be different for a female going SSJ. The Jessica thing is just the icing on the cake really.
Ummm, how about the huge freaking muscles and bulk they gain when they transform? Super Saiya-jin makes their musscles bigger and more defined. It's a very 'masculine' transformation. And hell, a female wouldn't even nesacarily have golden hair and teal eyes. You're just generalizing and, again, grasping at a non existant point. :?
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Post by Thanos6 » Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:34 am

Ummm, how about the huge freaking muscles and bulk they gain when they transform?
Not necessarily a bad thing...
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Post by caejones » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:43 am

... >.>
... <.<.
... Videl at 10,000? That's over NINE THOUSAAAAND!


What sort of feats of great power did early DB Goku, King Chappa, Mr. Satan, Etc do, and how do they compare?
Didn't Goku (in the anime anyway?) destroy a bunch of bricks with a finger?
Did we also see King Chappa training just before Tamberine came to kill him?
And Mr. Satan... trashed... busses?
And took a Buu punch to the face?

... Majin Mr. Satan. With Satan and Dabura on the Majin team, all he needs is Daimao and Akkuman... :shock:
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Post by Xyex » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:29 am

Thanos6 wrote:
Ummm, how about the huge freaking muscles and bulk they gain when they transform?
Not necessarily a bad thing...
Well, that's a matter of opinion.... >.> An example of what a female SSJ3 would likely look like. >>
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Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:13 am

They are not weak, they can defeat any human, but they're not exactly Super Saiyans. The second Goku became a Super Saiyan, that was the beginning of a gap that could never be filled by humans. They can't just magically get all powerful to hang in there with Super Saiyans, then people would wonder why they're so strong.

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Post by Thanos6 » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:27 am

Xyex wrote:
Thanos6 wrote:
Ummm, how about the huge freaking muscles and bulk they gain when they transform?
Not necessarily a bad thing...
Well, that's a matter of opinion.... >.> An example of what a female SSJ3 would likely look like. >>
Um....yummy?
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Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:32 am

She's so hot. Oh my God, I gotta get with that!
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Post by Teclo » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:28 pm

Well look, if you really can't see the resemblance between the DQ high tension appearance and a SSJ appearance then all I can say is that.. well, I kind of pity you. You've failed to pick up on an obvious reference. Well done. But trying to use that failure in an argument doesn't really do you any favours. It wouldn't take a genius...hell, it wouldn't even take an average person to see the similarity between the "powered up states" of DQ and DBZ. Tell them that they were both designed by the same man and it's just the icing on the cake.

All that aside, you're still missing the point. As I've said several times - what exactly is there to figure out about what a female SSJ would look like? Man... the difference between a regular man and a policeman is that the policeman wears a police uniform - so how do I draw a policewoman? Maybe, just maybe I just draw a regular woman in a police uniform - undergoing the same change as her male counterpart. Hot damn I think that might be it!

So when it came to drawing a female SSJ why was it so hard to draw a female with angry, almost triangular eyes, an aura and spiky or at least a little floaty hair? You know, undergoing the same changes as her make counterparts. When you then see a Toriyama character with an aura, those eyes and in a powered-up state, it would make anyone with common sense think "Yes! That's all you had to do all along!" It's not like he said "well I didn't want to let Jessica have a state of super high tension because I didn't know how to draw a woman in a state of super high tension!"

As for strong Toriyama women; the DQ ones don't count since, as far as I know, he is just the designer of the appearance not the actual scenario planner. The only strong female he did in DB/Z was Android 18 really. The movies and Bardock special outdid him when it came to strong females. The rest of his females tend to be old fashioned stereotypes of nagging housewives obsessed with appearances and shopping. To be fair, it was also an anime in which the males acted fairly typically male as well so I'm not going to try and make out like he hates women or anything.

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Post by Rocketman » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:40 pm

Dragon Ball Daisuki wrote:I'd just like to say that Videl took a hit from fucking Broli and got back up.
Hercule got hit by Cell (Kid Buu too, I think) and got back up. Obviously, Hercule must be 20,000! Image
Which brings me to the other point that it seems also telling that the only woman that can fight well is augmented with robotic parts.
And she absolutely destroyed the most powerful man in the universe...

Quite honestly, I would agree with you that Videl was deliberately underpowered... if she'd actually gone anything that gives DBZ-level power. If she'd used a gravity room or the time chamber, hell, if she'd gotten training from one of Earth's masters like Roshi, even. But she didn't, she was a regular human who had one week of basic ki training before Shit Went Down.

And quite honestly, I'm not sure what you wanted her to do. Kill Dabura? Kick Majin Vegeta in the nuts? Eat Super Buu? What?

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Post by Tyro » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:10 pm

Teclo wrote:According to the Daizenshuu (which I am personally a little sceptical of) Goku's power level at the start of DB was merely 10. Roshi reached as high as about 137 and would arguably have been a little higher around the time he beat Goku while disguised as Jackie Chun since he uncharacteristically trained before that event.
...and? I wasn't saying Mr. Satan had a personal battle power of ten. I was comparing what he has done to what Goku had done in that time, regardless of his actual battle power. Goku taking a bullet to the head and calling it a "little ouchie", lifting giant rocks out of the ground and crushing them with his bare hands, other random events, blah blah blah. Do I even need to list the feats of Mr. Satan to prove he was weaker than Goku during that time?

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Post by Jerseymilk » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:28 pm

Teclo wrote:The movies and Bardock special outdid him when it came to strong females. The rest of his females tend to be old fashioned stereotypes of nagging housewives obsessed with appearances and shopping.
You do know that Toriyama did the designs for the Bardock Special right? Therefore he created Seripa.

And you don't have to "pity" me. As I said before, you're seeing the reference because you *want* to see it. Trust me that you're reading way too much into it. The DQ franchise is huge in Japan, more popular than FF. It can stand on it's own without having to have elements from DBZ. It happens all the time. It's the same as slash fans thinking that rival guys in shonen anime really have the hots for each other.
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Post by Teclo » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:18 pm

Rocketman wrote:Quite honestly, I would agree with you that Videl was deliberately underpowered... if she'd actually gone anything that gives DBZ-level power. If she'd used a gravity room or the time chamber, hell, if she'd gotten training from one of Earth's masters like Roshi, even. But she didn't, she was a regular human who had one week of basic ki training before Shit Went Down.

And quite honestly, I'm not sure what you wanted her to do. Kill Dabura? Kick Majin Vegeta in the nuts? Eat Super Buu? What?
I do agree with you. I actually already said (somewhere in this somewhat hard to follow thread) that I know that Videl was a minor character and that she was by no means "important" to the world of DBZ. I didn't expect her to come in, save the day and change the course of the storyline.

It's hard to really say anything about what should or could have been in DBZ since it seemed to have been so lead by a combination of Toriyama's whims (fair enough, of course) and the fan reaction to his whims. So he tried to replace Goku with Gohan but people wanted more Goku so Gohan got sidelined (leading to Vegeta's line "this is ridiculous! He was more powerful as a child!") and he later tried to replace Goku with pretty much an exact replica of kid Goku, namely Goten. Apparently the fans were none to keen on that and Goku came back into the limelight again.

Now I'm fine with that and it certainly gives DBZ a certain something that it was written without that much forward planning but it does mean that it's hard to be really logical about anything. I mean, the real reason Krillin is the strongest human is that he's one of the main characters of the original DB and Goku's best friend. When he was introduced as a loveable comedic character, Toriyama had no idea that the gag manga would turn into a mostly serious kung fu and ki blast extravaganza. Characters like Tenshinhand and Chaotzu seem to have been introduced into DB just for the hell of it but by the time DBZ rolled around there was no real reason for them to exist. Same as Yamcha really; he went from the main antagonist of an arc to a pointless man who stands around and says "Wow! Such a powerful ki!"

Anyway, no matter how "pointless" these characters are, they still got taken through so many arcs and bad guys that they had to be powered up somehow just to be able to take part in the plot, no matter how lightly. Since Videl was introduced so comparitively late in the overall story all she really had to do was get beaten up by Spopovich as a device to show how good this Majin power thing is.

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Post by Xyex » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:14 am

Well look, if you really can't see the resemblance between the DQ high tension appearance and a SSJ appearance then all I can say is that.. well, I kind of pity you. You've failed to pick up on an obvious reference. Well done. But trying to use that failure in an argument doesn't really do you any favours. It wouldn't take a genius...hell, it wouldn't even take an average person to see the similarity between the "powered up states" of DQ and DBZ. Tell them that they were both designed by the same man and it's just the icing on the cake.
And if you can't realize that your reading way to much into this then I pity you. It's as obvious as hell that there is no fucking connection between them beyond Toriyama being the art designer. Hell, nothing even says he did any designs for the High Tension states outside of the Hero, considering tha the Hero's the only one that gets any real design changes. For crying out loud, the man uses similar designs and concepts all the fucking time without them being related at all. Or is the one character in Blue Dragon a Great Saiyaman fan?
All that aside, you're still missing the point. As I've said several times - what exactly is there to figure out about what a female SSJ would look like? Man... the difference between a regular man and a policeman is that the policeman wears a police uniform - so how do I draw a policewoman? Maybe, just maybe I just draw a regular woman in a police uniform - undergoing the same change as her male counterpart. Hot damn I think that might be it!
Ah, so that means that Cooler isn't related to Freeza at all because he doesn't look exactly the same! Seriously, dude, if you can't grasp the concept that Toriyama wasn't sure what kind of changes a female should undergo in the transformation then I pity you. Super Saiya-jin is distinctly a male transformation. It heightens things that are highly masculine in nature. Last I checked becoming a cop didn't give you 15% more muscle mass. Green eyes and spikey golden hair alone =/= a Super Saiya-jin. Toriyama has even said himself this was why he wasn't sure what a female Super Saiya-jin would look like, the transformation expanded on very masculine things that just didn't match up with female characters. Just how hard is this to grasp?
So when it came to drawing a female SSJ why was it so hard to draw a female with angry, almost triangular eyes, an aura and spiky or at least a little floaty hair? You know, undergoing the same changes as her make counterparts.
Again, green eyes and spikey golden hair alone =/= a Super Saiya-jin. Or is Sonic a Saiya-jin as well?
When you then see a Toriyama character with an aura, those eyes and in a powered-up state, it would make anyone with common sense think "Yes! That's all you had to do all along!"
What, an angry look and a glow? *Looks at Rocketman's avatar* Oh, looks like Toei already came up with a female SSJ design. :roll:

Now, excuse me while I go play Smash Brothers so I can smash stuff.
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Post by Rocketman » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:57 am

Xyex wrote:What, an angry look and a glow? *Looks at Rocketman's avatar* Oh, looks like Toei already came up with a female SSJ design. :roll:
HEY. Hey. Kaioken ChiChi would destroy female SSJs. :x They'd be all "imma supa saiyjin!" and Chichi'd be all "whatever, bitch". Then she'd punch their tits out their backs. Image

It's not sexism, she could do the same with male Super Saiyans, but there's only Goku and Vegeta left alive, and she needs both to service her. *whipcrack*

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Post by Kunzait_83 » Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:44 pm

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Post by Thanos6 » Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:30 am

Completely agreed on everything you wrote.

That said, it would be nice if they could get a little creative with Videl in the games; for her Saiyawoman form, at least, they should throw in some kind of energy beam, since I'm sure by the point she's wearing the costume Gohan would have gotten around to teaching her that. As noted, she's an incredibly fast learner.
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Post by Anonymous Friend » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:10 am

Thanos6 wrote:Completely agreed on everything you wrote.

That said, it would be nice if they could get a little creative with Videl in the games; for her Saiyawoman form, at least, they should throw in some kind of energy beam, since I'm sure by the point she's wearing the costume Gohan would have gotten around to teaching her that. As noted, she's an incredibly fast learner.
The main problem I have with the Sparking! series is that no matter how good you are with melee attacks your still at a disadvantage if you don't have decent ki attacks. That's why we need more Super DBZ games. Videl, not being a powerhouse character, would be great at stringing together some awesome combos.
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Post by Thanos6 » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:11 am

Anonymous Friend wrote:
Thanos6 wrote:Completely agreed on everything you wrote.

That said, it would be nice if they could get a little creative with Videl in the games; for her Saiyawoman form, at least, they should throw in some kind of energy beam, since I'm sure by the point she's wearing the costume Gohan would have gotten around to teaching her that. As noted, she's an incredibly fast learner.
The main problem I have with the Sparking! series is that no matter how good you are with melee attacks your still at a disadvantage if you don't have decent ki attacks. That's why we need more Super DBZ games. Videl, not being a powerhouse character, would be great at stringing together some awesome combos.
Especially against the damned giants...damned giants and their immunity to rushes...
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Post by Xyex » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:55 am

Thanos6 wrote:Completely agreed on everything you wrote.

That said, it would be nice if they could get a little creative with Videl in the games; for her Saiyawoman form, at least, they should throw in some kind of energy beam, since I'm sure by the point she's wearing the costume Gohan would have gotten around to teaching her that. As noted, she's an incredibly fast learner.
Yeah. Hell, the one thing missing from the Videl vs. Spoppovitch match, IMO, was Videl whipping out a low powered Kamehamea as a last ditch effort of beating him. If she learned how to fly doing a Kamehameha should be a piece of cakce.
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