Wow. So much to reply to.
TripleRach wrote:That would be "...(I/we) can't deflect somethin' like that...!!" There's only four words in the line, two of which are particles; none of them actually mean "never."
Ok, so it seems the word "never" was intentinoally inserted by Viz Media--but I'm going to go ahead and say that my interpration of the dialoug has not changed. He's still saying "We cannot deflect that", not "we don't have time to deflect that" or whatever. He's still saying it's an attack beyond his capabilities.
Xyex wrote:We do know, for absolute fact, that Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Gohan is able to walk all over Super Buu. Goku says that he and Vegeta can't take him without fusion.
That's not absolute fact. There's so much you're not taking into account, like how Goku's friends and family are all laying around, helpless, like how Vegeta wouldn't be much of a help, but more of a hinderance in combat--it makes sense to me for him to say anything he could to keep Vegeta from rushing out and starting a reckless confrontation.
Xyex wrote:As for SSJ3 Goku being stronger than Kid Buu, admitedly that is my take on things based on a handful of factors.
Yes, but if you really believe that Gohan > Super Buu > Goku > Kid Buu.. and you are saying "Goku can destroy Kid Buu with his full power" and you are
also saying (Again, I'm quoting you here) That Gohan gave at least 99% of his power to the Genki Dama, then why did Goku state that "This is Gohan's power, it's huge! But it's still not enough to kill Buu yet."
Don't you see the problem with what you're saying. You're saying Goku CAN destroy Buu with his own power, but Gohan's power cannot accomplish it--and you're also saying Gohan > Goku. It doesn't make any kind of sense.
Xyex wrote:Goku believing he can take him (to the point of even smashing the Potara, thus eliminating that as even a back-up plan
Which he later admits was a mistake, is the part that so many people leave out. Goku snaps his fingers and admits he was trying to act too cool, and that he shouldn't have done it. This is during the discussion when Vegeta comes up to him during the battle.
Xyex wrote:I believe that his full power was at least slightly stronger than Buu.
This goes back, once again, (sorry to be a broken record here) of you saying you believe Goku can destroy Buu under his own power, yet you also believe (quoting you here) that Gohan contributed at least 99% of his power, damn near full, and it's not enough? How then do you think Gohan > Goku--don't you realize it is a hole in your theory?
Xyex wrote:I seiously doubt it would matter if I was, at this point in time, because by now he likely doesn't know either. (And likely doesn't care, for that matter
)
He probably didn't care
while he was writing it, hence the Buu Saga being such a convoluted mess. But the fact is, whether he remembers or not, he's still the only man on Earth who's word is law on Dragonball. He created it, he wrote it.
Xyex wrote:Are you kidding me? Do you have any idea just how much DB related information has been lost over the years
I don't want to get into this at length in this here thread, so I'm going to keep it short and sweet. I don't believe there's an interview because
1.) You seem to be the only one who's read it--why hasn't anyone else stepped forward to back you up?
2.) It's a VERY important statement, if Toriyama ever said it, it's the type of thing that Dragonball fans would cling to.
3.) In the other thread, at least one other person remembered something starkly different. I'll let you go look if you're still interested. But even one conflicting memory gives me more then enough reason to harbor reasonable doubt.
Xyex wrote:In the context given it just means that, between when it's said and when the attack reaches the ground, there's no way for him to stop it.
You're the one who believes that Goku is superior to Kid Buu though. And we've already shown you a direct example in the manga, of him going SSj3 in an
instant, quick enough to take the form and get into a fighting position before Gotenks-Absorbed Buu could reach him. He spent time begging Buu not to throw it in the first place. I argue he easily had all the time in the world to go SSj3 before it was thrown, due to us seeing him do it instantly. Thusly, if you truly believe his full power is superior to Buu's, there's no real reason he couldn't have deflected it.
Xyex wrote:After all, if Goku's even close enough to Buu's level of power to kill him, sans the Spirit Bomb (which is kind of cheating, really) then he can muster something, given the time, to repel any attack Buu can make.
Exactly. And yet he says he can't.
Xyex wrote:You know, now that I think about it... It's either a difference between the manga and the anime or a dub only thing, but I distinctly remember Goku telling Vegeta he had been holding back, in order to give Vegeta a turn.
I go by what I own, and that is the Viz manga. I do not base any of my arguments on the anime, one way or the other. Neither the original, or the dub. I mean, come on. If you're going by the
anime, Goku states he's never fought one as powerful as Kid Buu, yet he's fought all forms of Super Buu in various filler. So we'll just go ahead and forget about the anime, shall we?
Xyex wrote:Vegeta says that with the power of Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku should be able to wipe him out, and Goku agrees. The fact Goku hadn't been able to do so, despite trying to do so, goes to the resilience of Buu. And to the need to create an attack drastically more powerful than him in order to cause significant damage, let alone destroy him completely.
Wait. So now you're agreeing with me though, that Goku needs to boost his power with a charged attack, in order to get the job done? Because earlier, you made it sound as though you believed Goku could just do it without such an attack, and that he had been holding back.
Xyex wrote:Even if he were fighting at full power from the start he wouldn't have remained at full power for all that long.
The way I see it, there is no "even if" considering Goku stated he would do so. But I guess that's just your opinion. As for the second part of what you said--yes, that's just another thing that lends to my belief that Kid Buu is superior to Goku.
Xyex wrote:Time. Buu needs all of 5 seconds to blow up the planet. If Gohan's not within 3 seconds of where ever Buu appears it wouldn't matter if he was 10x as strong as SSJ4 Gogeta, he's still not be able to stop him.
I suppose I can see where you're coming from--but it seems extremly far fetched to me. Kid buu likes a good fight. He tracked down Goku and Vegeta when they escaped him. And that time, he made no attempt to destroy the planet at all. He only just fought them.
Xyex wrote:As I said, even in the last post, Buu's very nature could. He's borderline immortal. You need excessive ammounts of power just to damage him.
Yes, but still--you are arguing that Goku's power
can destry him, and that Gohan's cannot? Then, Goku must be superior to Gohan, for this to be true.
Xyex wrote:And TripleRach brought something else up in chat earlier. The manga makes clear distinctions between Ki and Genki.
Does it? I was always led to believe differently. Going by Viz, the Genki Dama is stated to gather "chi". If this is inacurate, I'll wait for a more definitve example of such. This is something interesting that I have not heard yet, though.
Xyex wrote:He looked more confused/clueless than anything, I think. And of course, Gotenks and Gohan just screwed up trying to stop Buu once.
THat was against a clever Buu who had outsmarted them, though. A mindless killer like Kid Buu would be the perfect opponent to bring in a superior warrior to get the job done.
Xyex wrote:He was probably considering their chances of survival if Buu decided to absorb them again.
Well, Buu could have also absorbed Goku himself. Something I feel he
would have tried, were Goku truly superior to him. (Just another, among many reasons I believe that Kid Buu > Goku) Not that Buu ONLY absorbs those superior to him, of course. He also absorbed a South Kaioshin that must have been significantly weaker then SSj2 Gohan (Pre sword). So Buu's absoprtion is rather random, and I'd think the threat exists for Goku just as much as Gohan/Gotenks. Especially if you're claiming GOku's full power exceeds Buu's.
Rocketman wrote:Gohan doesn't have Instant Transmission and flight isn't as fast as you're thinking. Remember, Gohan-Buu wasn't able to stop Vegetto from forming despite knowing where they were.
True, but I'm basing it on the idea that Buu would go to fight him, like he did for Goku and Vegeta. There's also the possibility that Buu wouldn't even go back to Earth, or that Kaioshin could go and gather up Gohan, and warp him to Buu's location. It's just as likely that Gohan gets a chance to fight, as the chance that he doesn't.
Rocketman wrote:He hasn't ever exactly taken this kind of action to survive an otherwise killing blow though. That's giving the little maniacle one a bit of credit in the brains department, isn't it?
*Posts pictures from the anime, that did not happen in the manga*
Ah. Well, if you're allowing filler in this discussion, then I can make an even
more convincing case that Kid Buu > Super Buu.
As it stands, however, I'd much rather consider filler to not be an option, like in any other civilized Dragonball discussion.
