After all these years, I hear that Frieza's PL was wrong?

[Anonymous Friend]

I don't know if the "Kaio-ken = Kaio-ken x2" discussion was resolved or not, but I was watching the Goku/Vegeta fight and a few times it was mentioned about a 2X Kaio-ken and Goku only training up to a 2X Kaio-ken. both Goku and Kaio mention it.

What if the Kaio-ken technique at it's first level does double your battle power, but it really doesn't. Let's say that it takes your power level and adds to it the same amount. and each additional level gives you the same amount. If you start out with 10,000 and you use Kaio-ken and now your at 20,000 (10,000 + 10,000), you use 2X and you have 30,000 (10,000 plus 10,000 +10,000) and so forth.

Or not.

[Tyro]

“Even with the double Kaio-ken I can’t keep up with him…”

Well, at least that sounds a little less suspicious than "twice the Kaio-ken".

The best explanation I can think of is that there is a difference between battle power/power level and available ki. There are also different ways to expend one's available ki. So, for example, against Goku, Nappa starts off attcking in blind rage and gets nowhere. Vegeta tells him to calm down and fight with his head. In a real life situation I call this fighting cold as opposed to fighting hot. Nappa was a better fighter when cold, but had allowed himself to get angry and lose focus. He re-focuses, draws some ki to himself, and expends it in what seems to be an augmentation of his body, and sudenly he's doing better. I think it's a mistake to say he was on par with Goku though. The only blow he lands in the entire fight is one Goku lets him hit, and Goku doesn't have much trouble deflecting Nappa's best technique (which surprises even Vegeta).

Different opinions I guess. I really don't see how Nappa couldn't have powered up, but whatever.

Do...we care what Ginyu's best guess was? 85,000x2 = 170,000. So clearly Ginyu was off by 5k. My point is that this flows pretty well in the manga. Goku had been supressing the entire time, well below 90k. He says Kaio-ken. He first shoots to his max of 90k, and Ginyu's scouter blips and we get this reading. Then he begins to go up to the full 180,000. In the anime, as a way of drawing out the scene via filler, their is a decent amount of time between when Goku activates Kaio-ken and when the scouter registers 90k. But we know through calculation, as you yourself said, that 90k was his base maximum. So why is this even in debate that the scouter reading of 90k was his base?

Because Ginyu's second estimation was all we had to go on until the next chapter. For all we knew, Goku's ki grew to 90,000 on the way up to his Kaio-ken power. Yeah, the scouter clocked in at 90,000 for the first power level, but does that honestly mean anything other than Goku's ki started increasing? It's only after knowing that the Kaio-ken stopped at 180,000 that it is possible to know Goku's actual base state.

What if the Kaio-ken technique at it's first level does double your battle power, but it really doesn't. Let's say that it takes your power level and adds to it the same amount. and each additional level gives you the same amount. If you start out with 10,000 and you use Kaio-ken and now your at 20,000 (10,000 + 10,000), you use 2X and you have 30,000 (10,000 plus 10,000 +10,000) and so forth.

That's actually a theory I had heard somewhere. Kind of like this:

Goku (100 [base state]) + (100 [Kaio-ken doubling the user's strength, therefore adding what you already had]) = 200.

Or...

Goku (100) + (100 x 2 [Kaio-ken x2]) = 300.

This theory actually makes sense if you factor in Goku being damaged from Vegeta's attacks at full power.

[Kid Trunks]

Goku (100) + (100 x 2 [Kaio-ken x2]) = 300.

This theory actually makes sense if you factor in Goku being damaged from Vegeta's attacks at full power.

But that would mean that Goku(8000) + (8000 x 2 [kaio-ken x2]) = 24,000.
Meaning Goku should have annihilated Vegeta with Kaio-ken x2, but he didn't...

[Onikage725]

Different opinions I guess. I really don't see how Nappa couldn't have powered up, but whatever.

Noone's saying he didn't "power up." Just that his reading on a scouter shouldn't have differed. Nappa shouldn't know how to lower his power level. Just because he focused and accessed some of his power doesn't mean he was increasing the result one would get on a scouter.

Because Ginyu's second estimation was all we had to go on until the next chapter. For all we knew, Goku's ki grew to 90,000 on the way up to his Kaio-ken power. Yeah, the scouter clocked in at 90,000 for the first power level, but does that honestly mean anything other than Goku's ki started increasing? It's only after knowing that the Kaio-ken stopped at 180,000 that it is possible to know Goku's actual base state.

But we do know...
This debate would be relevant if the issue or episode in question was fresh. But we know the mechanics, and we have both the starting click of the base and the final result. Ginyu's guess was wrong. 90,000 was his base maximum. It may have been debatable, but as you say the 180,000 clinches it. There is no "for all we know." We do know. My only point about the manga is that it is more apparent there, without the extra minute of power up before the 90k reading.

That's actually a theory I had heard somewhere. Kind of like this:

Goku (100 [base state]) + (100 [Kaio-ken doubling the user's strength, therefore adding what you already had]) = 200.

Or...

Goku (100) + (100 x 2 [Kaio-ken x2]) = 300.

This theory actually makes sense if you factor in Goku being damaged from Vegeta's attacks at full power.

I will admit it has been a long day, so correct me if I'm seeing the math wrong... but it sounds like you two are saying the x2 basically functions the way we generally accept the x3 works.

Meaning if Goku (100) + (100 x 2 [Kaio-ken x2])= 300
Then Goku (8,000) + (8,000 x 2 [Kaio-ken x2]) = 24,000
And the problem there is that Goku didn't cap 21,000 until he started the x3 (21,000 being where we see on scouter before it breaks, presumably going to 24,000). And at this "above 21,000" level, he whupped Vegeta's ass all over the mountain range. Hard. Beat him so bad Trunks probably felt it in the future.
So there is no way the x2 could have given him a level in that range, when all he could do was barely dodge an attack.

[Rocketman]

Noone's saying he didn't "power up." Just that his reading on a scouter shouldn't have differed. Nappa shouldn't know how to lower his power level. Just because he focused and accessed some of his power doesn't mean he was increasing the result one would get on a scouter.

Would it be fair to say that Nappa could lower his power level, but he couldn't hide it?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I think Nappa could use the amount of power he prefers to use at a point, but he can't do what Vegeta learned to do; which was the ability to suppress your power to whatever level you want, while fooling the scouter.

[Anonymous Friend]

Noone's saying he didn't "power up." Just that his reading on a scouter shouldn't have differed. Nappa shouldn't know how to lower his power level. Just because he focused and accessed some of his power doesn't mean he was increasing the result one would get on a scouter.

Would it be fair to say that Nappa could lower his power level, but he couldn't hide it?

I thought about this too when Vegeta spend a good five or ten minutes "powering up" and caused Launch to spill her drink. If it wasn't powering up then what was it?

[Onikage725]

Noone's saying he didn't "power up." Just that his reading on a scouter shouldn't have differed. Nappa shouldn't know how to lower his power level. Just because he focused and accessed some of his power doesn't mean he was increasing the result one would get on a scouter.

Would it be fair to say that Nappa could lower his power level, but he couldn't hide it?

That's basically what I'm trying to say, unless I misunderstand you. I'm not saying Nappa and Vegeta didn't power up, just that there's a difference between available, focused, on-hand ki and one's "power level." This started over debate about whether the daizenshuu reading of 4000 could have been a "base" reading, and also if Vegeta was at around 16k and powered up to 18k. Whatever they had ready for use, they would clock in at a steady number on a scouter.

[USSJed]

One thing no one has pointed out (ever, anywhere, perhaps I am the first?) is that Goku's BASE power level is 5000, not 8000.
So possibly the Kaoken increases base power instead of maximum?
Crazy but possible!

Then Goku Kaoken=10,000
Goku Kaokenx2=20,000
Goku Kaokenx3=30,000
Goku Kaokenx4=40,000

Which seems a little odd because Kaokenx1 beats on Vegeta for a few seconds right?

I personally think Vegeta was just taken by surprise. And I noticed that Vegeta's episode long power up apparantly increases his power from 15,000 to 18,000. Thats only 20%. I remember Frieza says "It's not surprising that Vegeta is at 24,000. He has been in a continuing battle for a long time"(sub par translation there...) I find it concievable that perhaps Vegeta's base power was like 12,000. It would explain why he didn't immediatly crap his pants at the sight of PL:8000 Goku, and a 50% increase from such a lengthy power boost makes more sense then a mere 20% increase. And most importantly it could fit in with the power levels in that battle!

I know this is a shakey idea at best, but perhaps we could look into the possibility?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Goku's power level was definitely not 5,000 at that point. That was his suppressed level (he was at the same level when he arrived on Namek). Don't you remember when he powered up to OVER 90- er, 8,000?

[USSJed]

Yes, but Vegeta's base level was apparantly 15,000. Then he powered up to 18,000. Who is to say Goku wasn' doing the same thing(I am sure there is SOME evidence to derail my theory somewhere)

But the whole Kaokenx2 thing bugs the hell outta me, I expect this sort of inconsistancy from GT, not Z

[Onikage725]

Yes, but Vegeta's base level was apparantly 15,000. Then he powered up to 18,000. Who is to say Goku wasn' doing the same thing(I am sure there is SOME evidence to derail my theory somewhere)

But the whole Kaokenx2 thing bugs the hell outta me, I expect this sort of inconsistancy from GT, not Z

5,000 on earth was supressed.

Vegeta didn't know how to supress. He picked it up from the humans (and Goku). Remember when he kept his level low to trick Kewi? That was a new skill. So Vegeta would not have been 15,000.

[USSJed]

Whatever he was, he definitely went from

Kaoken>or=Vegeta
to
Kaoken<Vegeta

[VegettoEX]

Whatever he was, he definitely went from

Kaoken>or=Vegeta
to
Kaoken<Vegeta

While there's no actual rule against it, per se, I personally frown upon the expression of actual sentences as little more than algebraic equations. We really do ask that people put some actual content into their posts and responses, and it just doesn't seem like there's much effort in [character/technique] [relation] [character/technique].

Additionally, and I just wanted to mention it since it's staring back at me... it's "Kaio-Ken" (note the "i" in there). It's a technique whose name is derived from Kaio-sama (or "King Kai", if you will), and it is both spelled and pronounced as such. The "o" is an elongated sound (since it's actually "Kaiô-Ken" and "Kaiô-sama"), but yep!

[Rocketman]

Whatever he was, he definitely went from

Kaoken>or=Vegeta
to
Kaoken<Vegeta

No, he didn't. Goku using the basic Kaioken got smacked around and laughed at by Vegeta. It was only when he used Kaioken x3 that he beat Vegeta up.

[mAcChaos]

I think of it not as concealment, with people like Vegeta, but how hard they're trying. The effort. If you're giving it 100%, then you'd be way different than if you weren't really interested. But it's 100% or 10% of the same power. The amount doesn't really change.

Whereas Goku and the rest basically "put away" the power they don't need and can tap into it later.

[Onikage725]

I think of it not as concealment, with people like Vegeta, but how hard they're trying. The effort. If you're giving it 100%, then you'd be way different than if you weren't really interested. But it's 100% or 10% of the same power. The amount doesn't really change.

Whereas Goku and the rest basically "put away" the power they don't need and can tap into it later.

Thank you! That's basically what I'm trying to say. For them, it's a matter of focus (as opposed to the earthlings actually lowering and raising their numbers).

[JulieYBM]

Additionally, and I just wanted to mention it since it's staring back at me... it's "Kaio-Ken" (note the "i" in there). It's a technique whose name is derived from Kaio-sama (or "King Kai", if you will), and it is both spelled and pronounced as such. The "o" is an elongated sound (since it's actually "Kaiô-Ken" and "Kaiô-sama"), but yep!

Thank God, that was annoying me so much. Kaiô/Kaioh/Kaiou/Kaio-Ken is the name.

I do believe Mr. Toriyama miswrote or we've all been mistranslating what Son says (or maybe his hick accent was the problem), by 'using the double Kaiô-Ken', I think he means 'the doubling Kaiô-Ken'.

And just to make it clear, when Son was fighting Ginyu, did he double his power? I've seen people say he was using a triple or ten times Kaiô-Ken. Which was it?

[The Madness]

From what I can remember, it was a standard 2 times Kaioken.

[Kaboom]

And just to make it clear, when Son was fighting Ginyu, did he double his power? I've seen people say he was using a triple or ten times Kaiô-Ken. Which was it?

No, it was just a regular ol' Kaio-Ken. His power doubled, going from 90,000 to 180,000, if I recall correctly.