Exactly how strong were the Kaioshin?

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:39 pm

Why wouldn't that apply for the regular Kaio-Ken (that he used on Ginyu), or the Kaio-Ken x20?

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:54 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Why wouldn't that apply for the regular Kaio-Ken (that he used on Ginyu), or the Kaio-Ken x20?

The anime made it seem like he was using it so briefly in certain moments that it wasn't visible (or was visible for so little time that we didn't catch it the first time round).

It might be that he was using it that way to reduce the strain it puts on the body, only using it for longer than a millisecond when really necessary.

Satan-Sama · Post by **Satan-Sama** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:57 pm

Bussani wrote:
Hm, it is possible that the one panel where he has an aura is the only time he used Kaioken. The anime disagrees, but that's the anime for you.

Exactly, so don't take that 40 ton filler scene too literal.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:59 pm

Satan-Sama wrote:
Bussani wrote:
Hm, it is possible that the one panel where he has an aura is the only time he used Kaioken. The anime disagrees, but that's the anime for you.
Exactly, so don't take that 40 ton filler scene too literal.

It isn't filler, it's from the manga.

Edit: And we still don't know how much tonnage Freeza himself could lift, so what's the problem?

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:00 pm

The 40 tons was in the manga.

Bussani got it.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:04 pm

Bussani wrote:
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Why wouldn't that apply for the regular Kaio-Ken (that he used on Ginyu), or the Kaio-Ken x20?
The anime made it seem like he was using it so briefly in certain moments that it wasn't visible (or was visible for so little time that we didn't catch it the first time round).

It might be that he was using it that way to reduce the strain it puts on the body, only using it for longer than a millisecond when really necessary.

Honestly, that just sounds like poor fanwanking to me. I think we should take it like we see it.

Satan-Sama · Post by **Satan-Sama** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:06 pm

Bussani wrote:
Satan-Sama wrote:
Bussani wrote:
Hm, it is possible that the one panel where he has an aura is the only time he used Kaioken. The anime disagrees, but that's the anime for you.
Exactly, so don't take that 40 ton filler scene too literal.
It isn't filler, it's from the manga.

Edit: And we still don't know how much tonnage Freeza himself could lift, so what's the problem?

Really? Wow. I always thought that was a filler scene, it always seemed like so for me. My apologies.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:07 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Honestly, that just sounds like poor fanwanking to me. I think we should take it like we see it.

We see it in the anime exactly as I described it. Kaio says he's already using kaioken and it shows the fight in slow motion. Every time Goku attacks or defends, you see him use kaioken.

Like I already said though, that's only in the anime. But I'd hardly call it fanwanking even if it is filler.

The way Kaio says he's already using x10 in the manga doesn't sound like he's just referring to one single instance, though... Maybe someone with a Japanese copy might be able to tell us how it's written/what the implication of what he says is.

Edit:

Satan-Sama wrote:Really? Wow. I always thought that was a filler scene, it always seemed like so for me. My apologies.

I always thought it was filler before I read the manga too, because that other Kaio is in it (it's the only time any other Kaio is seen in the manga I believe).

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:02 am

Bussani wrote:
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Honestly, that just sounds like poor fanwanking to me. I think we should take it like we see it.
We see it in the anime exactly as I described it. Kaio says he's already using kaioken and it shows the fight in slow motion. Every time Goku attacks or defends, you see him use kaioken.

Like I already said though, that's only in the anime. But I'd hardly call it fanwanking even if it is filler.

The way Kaio says he's already using x10 in the manga doesn't sound like he's just referring to one single instance, though... Maybe someone with a Japanese copy might be able to tell us how it's written/what the implication of what he says is.

Sorry, I was actually referring to this part:

It might be that he was using it that way to reduce the strain it puts on the body, only using it for longer than a millisecond when really necessary.

I know the anime wasn't fanwanking because... well, the Toei people aren't "fans." As for Kaio's quote, I don't have that particular volume in Japanese, but I think I've translated it before. I think it was just a simple "He's using the Kaio-Ken x10 right now!" If you read the fight in the manga, you'll see that he says that in the same chapter that an aura started appearing around Goku, so it would make sense that he just started using it. Note that the aura appeared after Goku and Freeza both agreed to stop warming up. It makes sense that Freeza raised his power, while Goku started using the Kaio-Ken to match him, right? Isn't that the classic Dragon Ball formula? Goku and the enemy start out at their lowest level of power to warm up, and then Goku pulls out all of his tricks for the win.

(Of course, that went out the window when the Super Saiyans showed up...)

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:06 am

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Sorry, I was actually referring to this part:

It might be that he was using it that way to reduce the strain it puts on the body, only using it for longer than a millisecond when really necessary.

Well, to me this part in the anime still seemed like that's what it was implying. He was using it very briefly in slow motion. Buuuut.... (see below)

I know the anime wasn't fanwanking because... well, the Toei people aren't "fans." As for Kaio's quote, I don't have that particular volume in Japanese, but I think I've translated it before. I think it was just a simple "He's using the Kaio-Ken x10 right now!" If you read the fight in the manga, you'll see that he says that in the same chapter that an aura started appearing around Goku, so it would make sense that he just started using it. Note that the aura appeared after Goku and Freeza both agreed to stop warming up. It makes sense that Freeza raised his power, while Goku started using the Kaio-Ken to match him, right? Isn't that the classic Dragon Ball formula? Goku and the enemy start out at their lowest level of power to warm up, and then Goku pulls out all of his tricks for the win.

...It could have just been a drawing out the same thing, showing Goku using it at the time, like you say.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:54 am

Actually, the anime pretty heavily implies that Goku's been using the Kaioken from the start. This is really one of those instances where you can either just go with the manga canon or accept that the anime diverges from the manga on this matter. Anime Goku was using some level of the Kaioken to keep up with Freeza while Manga Goku didn't need it until Freeza powered-up. With the anime's implication of the Kaioken being used for a while there's really nothing that goes against the idea, all possible counter points to it can be explained.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:17 am

Xyex wrote:Actually, the anime pretty heavily implies that Goku's been using the Kaioken from the start. This is really one of those instances where you can either just go with the manga canon or accept that the anime diverges from the manga on this matter. Anime Goku was using some level of the Kaioken to keep up with Freeza while Manga Goku didn't need it until Freeza powered-up. With the anime's implication of the Kaioken being used for a while there's really nothing that goes against the idea, all possible counter points to it can be explained.

That is the impression I got from the anime version too, I wasn't sure if I was remembering correctly. Maybe I'll go back and watch it later.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:37 am

Xyex wrote:This is really one of those instances where you can either just go with the manga canon or accept that the anime diverges from the manga on this matter.

Why would we accept the anime's version of events in this case? It's a rather silly idea.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:00 am

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:
Xyex wrote:This is really one of those instances where you can either just go with the manga canon or accept that the anime diverges from the manga on this matter.
Why would we accept the anime's version of events in this case? It's a rather silly idea.

Because the alternative is just as silly.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:03 am

Okay, but that's how Toriyama wrote it. Besides, it's a super magic power up that comes from getting beat to death. WHY MUST IT MAKE SENSE?!

(Goku is the main character, by the way. In case you forgot.)

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:16 am

I also see no reason why Goku would say he would probably make no difference in the battle after Freeza transformed into his third form, but once he emerges from the healing tank, he's now shocked and scared of this new power that's literally ten times weaker then Freeza.

That makes no sense.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:03 am

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Okay, but that's how Toriyama wrote it. Besides, it's a super magic power up that comes from getting beat to death. WHY MUST IT MAKE SENSE?!

(Goku is the main character, by the way. In case you forgot.)

So why are you arguing against a silly thing favoring the main character by touting another silly thing favoring the main character?

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:11 am

Because one way is the way Toriyama wrote it.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:11 am

You don't think the idea of Goku using a Kaioken x10 for the entire battle is weird, Rocketman? I mean, Goku doesn't have the aura, so we know that much.

Do you think Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra?

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:31 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:You don't think the idea of Goku using a Kaioken x10 for the entire battle is weird, Rocketman? I mean, Goku doesn't have the aura, so we know that much.

Do you think Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra?

Do you think Vegeta was a Super Saiya-jin while standing around without an aura? Besides that, your example isn't even applicable. Gohan displayed an aura and thus there was evidence of what he was using. In the anime, Goku displayed no aura until AFTER King Kai said he was using the Kaioken. Then the anime goes and shows us exchanges between Goku and Freeza with the aura there, implying we just weren't able to see it before. With that moment of 'shock and awe' out of the way, the anime then proceeds to show us the aura consistently.

Personally, I can go either way on this though I've switched to the manga's portrayal as of late. I prefer the lower powers the anime portrays but too many people complain about going that way for me to want to take the effort to constantly explain that, yes, it is possible in the anime.

Why would we accept the anime's version of events in this case? It's a rather silly idea.

Who killed Kargo? When did Future Trunks first go SSJ? Sometimes you just have to pick one and go with it.