Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[TheMightyOzaru]

That's not necessarily true. They did set out fully disregarding power levels from the start. A controversial decision, sure, but not a baseless one. And there is some very good evidence that power levels and strength/speed/durability are not perfectly linear. There's no solid proof that a person with power level 10 can lift twice as much or move twice as fast as someone with a power level of 5. So who knows what Goku's power level is at their calculated numbers? It could be 100 trillion for all we know.

Thats the problem. Strength and Ki, Ki is what power levels are based on, are not related. It makes no sense that Goku can bust planets and yet only lift 160,000 tons and have these 2 things be related. Goku's Ki is not based on his increases in gravity, that is absurd. Expecting me to believe that is expecting me to believe that Goku's power level is 8,000+ x 58.6 since he was already used to 10x gravity. That brings us to a power level of 468,800+. That can't possibly work since his power level in the Freeza arc was already 3 million and it only bigger come the Buu saga. Toriyama even said it himself. Muscle can only take you so far so they started enhancing Ki. They made quite a hefty mistake. They didn't even take into account Cell's statement about Solar System busting which is likely when you consider Cell just blowing up the sun. The fight was great and Goku would lose regardless but busting the sun isn't possible with a measly count of 50 sextillion megatons in SSJ4.

[TonyTheTiger]

But there are probably diminishing returns as far as 1 "unit" of power goes if we consider "planet busting" the highest conceivable achievement up through Freeza. An average adult human has a power level of 5, Roshi can blow up the moon at 139, and Vegeta can blow up the Earth at 18,000. It's obvious that the stronger you get, the more "units of power" it takes to represent that increase. It's a front loaded system whereby the greatest feat of blowing up a planet is well within the scale's range. At lower numbers, a single unit represents a massive boost since there is no way in hell Roshi is only 28 times more powerful than that farmer, ki or no ki. But once characters start exceeding the expected range the numbers jump wildly and the devices start outright exploding.

That would explain the ridiculous number padding that happens on Namek. As they increase in power, it takes more and more units to represent that growth. In other words, Freeza can have a power level that's 6,667 times larger than Vegeta's on Earth but can be less than 6,667 times more powerful. Nappa was appalled at the prospect of Goku being at 8,000 (about twice Nappa's PL). But adding 4,000 to anyone during the Freeza fight would have been completely negligible.

So unless we figure out the rate by which a single unit devalues, we can't actually calculate anyone's power level past Namek at all. Since the scouters weren't designed with those numbers in mind that explains why they become incalculable. They're literally "off the charts" to the point that the numbers on that scale are no longer meaningfully informative.

[Onikage725]

How is Planet Busting the highest conceivable feat??? It was actually subject to something of a Worf Effect. It was the strongest stated feat of Vegeta's ultimate attack in the first Z saga...and something Freeza could do with the casual effort of swatting an insect in his lowest form. Points finger/laughs/orders pizza.

Also, Vegeta at 18k survived Goku's blast, which out-powered his own planet killer. Bardock, pl 16k, was utterly annihilated by Freeza's teaching us that "planet busting" is a relatively feat. POTENCY must also be considered. How many times do we hear characters refer to an inability to harm another "at that level?" Certainly the Namek warriors could level cities and possibly small planets, yet they where like toddlers against Dodoria...as the possibly Radtiz-level goons were against them. If guy A is stronger, it mitigates guy B's effect on him. Cell as he was when he died could launch a solar system destroying attack at Buuhan, and Buuhan would laugh.

[TonyTheTiger]

How is Planet Busting the highest conceivable feat??? It was actually subject to something of a Worf Effect. It was the strongest stated feat of Vegeta's ultimate attack in the first Z saga...and something Freeza could do with the casual effort of swatting an insect in his lowest form. Points finger/laughs/orders pizza.

Highest conceivable feat up through the Namek saga. As in before then the Earthlings, Saiyans and Freeza's people would have considered it the greatest demonstration of power a single person could perform. Given that Freeza was toted as basically the most powerful being in the universe (probably even in his lowest form, which most people seemed to think was his only form), it stands to reason that the scouters were designed without considering any greater feat as possible or necessary to account for. Why would a scouter ever need to calculate a number even close to Freeza, let alone higher? So it would make sense for the numbers to be compressed by design and thus become less and less calculable once the act of blowing up a planet becomes insignificant, justifying the ridiculous leap on Namek. The scouters literally could not keep up.

Also, Vegeta at 18k survived Goku's blast, which out-powered his own planet killer. Bardock, pl 16k, was utterly annihilated by Freeza's teaching us that "planet busting" is a relatively feat. POTENCY must also be considered. How many times do we hear characters refer to an inability to harm another "at that level?" Certainly the Namek warriors could level cities and possibly small planets, yet they where like toddlers against Dodoria...as the possibly Radtiz-level goons were against them. If guy A is stronger, it mitigates guy B's effect on him. Cell as he was when he died could launch a solar system destroying attack at Buuhan, and Buuhan would laugh.

Which actually supports Death Battle's conclusion that Goku's durability and Ki output are equal. You can tank what you can put out unless the particular attack has some trick to it like the Kienzan.

[Hellspawn28]

Vegeta saying that he was going to destroy the Earth does not mean he is going to blow it up completely. Destroying the Earth can mean anything.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta saying that he was going to destroy the Earth does not mean he is going to blow it up completely. Destroying the Earth can mean anything.

Most likely the core (along with Goku), like Freeza did on Namek, so that he could leave the planet in time.

[TheMightyOzaru]

But there are probably diminishing returns as far as 1 "unit" of power goes if we consider "planet busting" the highest conceivable achievement up through Freeza. An average adult human has a power level of 5, Roshi can blow up the moon at 139, and Vegeta can blow up the Earth at 18,000. It's obvious that the stronger you get, the more "units of power" it takes to represent that increase. It's a front loaded system whereby the greatest feat of blowing up a planet is well within the scale's range. At lower numbers, a single unit represents a massive boost since there is no way in hell Roshi is only 28 times more powerful than that farmer, ki or no ki. But once characters start exceeding the expected range the numbers jump wildly and the devices start outright exploding.

That would explain the ridiculous number padding that happens on Namek. As they increase in power, it takes more and more units to represent that growth. In other words, Freeza can have a power level that's 6,667 times larger than Vegeta's on Earth but can be less than 6,667 times more powerful. Nappa was appalled at the prospect of Goku being at 8,000 (about twice Nappa's PL). But adding 4,000 to anyone during the Freeza fight would have been completely negligible.

So unless we figure out the rate by which a single unit devalues, we can't actually calculate anyone's power level past Namek at all. Since the scouters weren't designed with those numbers in mind that explains why they become incalculable. They're literally "off the charts" to the point that the numbers on that scale are no longer meaningfully informative.

I have actually found a decent method of calculating ones maximum output. Now I know this is gonna sound weird but this essentially reflects EV training in Pokemon. for every 4x increase you receive your Megaton output multiplies by 10. Now I know what you're thinking, that would put the farmer at 100 billion(+) megatons. Yes but I have a theory that would make such a thing possible. You see the farmer has 100 billion megatons in dormant potential. As he trains he will eventually be able to access that energy and more since his potential will rise as he increases his power level. In other words that amount of power will remain inaccessible until he reaches a certain level in his training. This would explain why Master Roshi is able to output 30 trillion+ megatons when he is only 36x stronger than him at full power. This would also make Cell a star buster at a power level of 6 billion+ which isn't outlandish at all. Now if you want him to destroy the entirety of the Solar System that would require a power level of 8 trillion+. There really isn't anything that contradicts this and quite frankly it eliminates any discrepancies between Megatons and Ki we've seen in the series. This works for me.

[Onikage725]

Which actually supports Death Battle's conclusion that Goku's durability and Ki output are equal. You can tank what you can put out unless the particular attack has some trick to it like the Kienzan.

The problem with a cross-universe calculation is that this is only measurable with power scaling. Muten Roshi blows up the moon at a budokai, yet Piccolo leveling an island is impressive and showed is vast power. Later, increasing his power four times over, he manages to blow up a mountain. Judging a character's full power on collateral damage is a VERY misleading thing. Nothing we see Kuririn do in the Buu Saga is worth noting, or the Cell Saga for tht matter. Yet we know he likely possesses the power to devastate a planet if he wanted to. He could certainly pull off a space pirate style cleansing.

So, how do we accurately judge durability if we can not effectively measure ki output in a reliable manner? Like Trunks- he could effortlessly toy with Freeza's planet crusher. But if Buu were there hypothetically, he could floor him with a sneeze.

[dbzfan7]

According to Ben the fights are meant to be a visual representation of their research and not just pure entertainment.

He also mentions a few other things on twitter like how they aren't doing a response video (good so they can move on), and "Nah. Every single complaint I've seen is a result of the complainer just not paying attention to the DEATH BATTLE episode." I find that a stupid response because that doesn't mean their entirely right, but what ever.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Sadly Ben is quite stubborn. He can never accept being wrong.

[dario03]

According to Ben the fights are meant to be a visual representation of their research and not just pure entertainment.

That doesn't even make sense. They flat out say it wasn't even close in the strength, speed, and durability department. If it had just been the ki attacks that were working then I could understand a little but they showed SS4 Goku being successful with physical attacks and keeping up with Superman.

Now if he means the fight is supposed to show the character traits (minus refusal to kill) and the different abilities that would be fine but I thought that went without saying. Like how they showed Goku destroying the kryptonite. But its still weird that Goku went through all his transformations and even Kaio Ken instead of just going straight to SS4.

[Bussani]

It makes no sense that Goku can bust planets and yet only lift 160,000 tons and have these 2 things be related.

Why can't lifting power just increase slower than the destructive force of special attacks? Seeing as how they still refer to 18 tons with awe in the Cell arc and Goku thinks he wouldn't even be able to move under 40 tons in the Buu arc, that's how it seems to work, minus some oddities like Taopaipai's throwing power. It's all just a result of Toriyama not thinking too hard about the numbers, of course.

[Onikage725]

Why can't lifting power just increase slower than the destructive force of special attacks? Seeing as how they still refer to 18 tons with awe in the Cell arc and Goku thinks he wouldn't even be able to move under 40 tons in the Buu arc, that's how it seems to work, minus some oddities like Taopaipai's throwing power. It's all just a result of Toriyama not thinking too hard about the numbers, of course.

That's likely why he made that hand-waive comment about muscles only going so far. It is a hard thing to measure against, as in-universe a Dragon Ball fight is more against running down or overwhelming the opponent's ki reserves. Given the things they tank at low points in the series, we know that from a strict energy/destructive yield standpoint these characters are fairly invincible when powered up. The tricky task is figuring out a scale in a cross-universe scenario to measure how this stacks up to powerful fighters who aren't using ki.

The "stats" of the Death Battle aside, both characters were given their due. Superman can pull planets and take planet-breaking punches on the chin, but Goku tanked his punches and floored him with his own. Goku can hypothetically snuff a planet with his ki if it obscures his view, and Superman tanked/dodged/or cancelled his blasts.

At the end of the day, if there is a yellow sun around, Kryptonian's win ties :p

Just thought of a Goku strength feat. Did they ever say how strong Katchin was? He lifted that in base.

[TheMightyOzaru]

@Bussani
Considering the fact that Toriyama stated muscle can only take you so far I'm gonna assume these things are'nt related. As for Tao, you can use Ki to amp up your strength. Tao simply used Ki to force the object forward and used Ki as a cushion so he didn't have that same amount of force projected on his arm.

[Onikage725]

That notion is somewhat supported in reality. Just because a martial artist can shatter a stack of boards or blocks, at times moving faster than cameras can properly record (theoretically, an application of ki), doesn't mean they are going to set running or bench pressing records (an application of muscle).

[Bussani]

@Bussani
Considering the fact that Toriyama stated muscle can only take you so far I'm gonna assume these things are'nt related.

Like many of Toriyama's comments, I think that can be interpreted in at least two different ways. Did he mean that muscles have an absolute limit that can't be overcome, or did he just mean that muscles have a limit at any given time and that you can go beyond that limit using ki? Whatever the case, I think there must be some sort of vague connection between the two, but I wouldn't put more thought into it than "if your battle power increases, you can lift some amount more".

Tao simply used Ki to force the object forward and used Ki as a cushion so he didn't have that same amount of force projected on his arm.

I also like to use explanations like this.

Just thought of a Goku strength feat. Did they ever say how strong Katchin was? He lifted that in base.

They said it was the hardest metal in the universe, but any guess as to its weight would probably be an arbitrary one. Some might be tempted to say that if it's stronger than any other metal, then it should be heavier than any other metal; but even looking at naturally occurring chemical elements, like gold vs. titanium, it's possible to have a metal that's far less dense, far lighter, and yet far stronger than its counterpart.

[TheMightyOzaru]

@Bussani
Considering the fact that Toriyama stated muscle can only take you so far I'm gonna assume these things are'nt related.

Like many of Toriyama's comments, I think that can be interpreted in at least two different ways. Did he mean that muscles have an absolute limit that can't be overcome, or did he just mean that muscles have a limit at any given time and that you can go beyond that limit using ki? Whatever the case, I think there must be some sort of vague connection between the two, but I wouldn't put more thought into it than "if your battle power increases, you can lift some amount more".

Tao simply used Ki to force the object forward and used Ki as a cushion so he didn't have that same amount of force projected on his arm.

I also like to use explanations like this.

Just thought of a Goku strength feat. Did they ever say how strong Katchin was? He lifted that in base.

They said it was the hardest metal in the universe, but any guess as to its weight would probably be an arbitrary one. Some might be tempted to say that if it's stronger than any other metal, then it should be heavier than any other metal; but even looking at naturally occurring chemical elements, like gold vs. titanium, it's possible to have a metal that's far less dense, far lighter, and yet far stronger than its counterpart.

Here let me find the entire statement:
Akira Toriyama:"When it comes to battle, the most important thing is KI SIZE, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe" I found this on some website since I don't know where to find here so hopefully it wasn't altered.
You have to overcome you're strength cap by mastering Ki. Strength has a limit and Ki does not. I take that as a sign that these 2 things are not related but can be combined to make powerful punches and such. Battle Power to me IS Ki size. You cannot determine Goku's maximum potential with gravity training because that measures physical limits. 586x normal gravity might be is physical limit but it certainly is not his spiritual limit.

[Bussani]

I found this on some website since I don't know where to find here so hopefully it wasn't altered.

It doesn't seem to have been.

I take that as a sign that these 2 things are not related but can be combined to make powerful punches and such. Battle Power to me IS Ki size. You cannot determine Goku's maximum potential with gravity training because that measures physical limits. 586x normal gravity might be is physical limit but it certainly is not his spiritual limit.

I agree with what you're saying--that physical strength and ki are separate things, but can be combined. It's like how even without ki, even when dead, a person's body has a certain level of durability, but with ki, that durability is higher. I think we were actually talking about different things: I didn't mean that a person's raw, unaided physical power would increase with ki, but that their total strength--this by-product of physical power and spiritual power--would increase. That is, there's obviously a relationship between total strength and ki because ki contributes to total strength.

Hopefully I'm making sense. I'm late for an appointment, so I can't fiddle with my wording too much!

[Onikage725]

I think you make complete sense. There IS a correlation, and we do see that correlation in regards to durability and speed all the time and seemingly in equal proportion. I just think raw physical POWER is less enhanced by ki than the other attributes. I attribute it to DB being a martial arts manga as opposed to a superhero manga. That's why I mentioned block breaking. Or the pokemon fighting move brick break- not the strongest move, but it shatters barrier defense. I see a strike from Goku against, well, let's say Superman, in that way. Superman's invulnerability = the brick. Goku lacks the raw power of a Darkseid, Doomsday, Mongul, etc to brute force the brick. But his vast ki reserves allow him to apply his strike with pinpoint force and precision to deliver damaging blow. Goku's ki, when powered, affords him a Superman-esque invulnerability. Similar rules as western comics- can only be tired out by opponents of similar level. Superman lacks the ki to overwhelm Goku's, but his sheer power makes that distinction largely semantic.

Another silly analogy is The Flash. I'll go with Wally West, but it applies to most speedsters. His body is durable. Part aura, part personal toughness. It allows him to travel at the speeds he does without injury or fatigue. The speed, obviously, is another aspect. His power derives from his master of a natural force that he draws on. Not dissimilar to ki in that regard. Wally has been shown to perform feats of above-normal strength, can harm durable opponents with melee flurries, and can use his speed to generate the infinite mass punch. This allows him, through an application of the energy that powers him, to floor opponents who pure "super strength" fighters have trouble hurting. It isn't pure musculature, but rather an application of their growing mastery of an energy force that is both internal and external.

It's not a direct parallel, but I think the point is similar. How else do we account for Goku having more than enough power to effortlessly erase a large planet before becoming a Super Saiyan (and who knows how much destruction he could cause by SSJ4, if you just follow the multipliers and allow for things like base growth and burst fighting), yet he struggles to hold a skyscraper.

A simpler explanation on the power scale is also that strength in DBZ is applied normally (more or less, AT is no scientist). As I mentioned earlier, DC comics gives super strong characters a bit of plot armor, allowing human-sized opponents to lift things that simply should not be lift-able (in an intact state) by an object on that scale.

[Bussani]

Well, glad I made sense to someone! Yeah, I can get behind most of that, too. The striking power and durability of Dragon Ball characters definitely changes depending on how they use their ki, so we have to take that into account when talking about what they can do. A normal punch from Goku, even with his ki enhancing it, is more or less just a normal punch (by Dragon Ball standards); his punch against Daimao, on the other hand, with all of his ki focused into the strike, was quite different. I almost like to think of it as a very basic version of Dragon Fist. As for durability, there was the time that Goku gathered his ki and planted himself during his fight with Piccolo, taking his attack head on and still having enough power in reserve to blitz him. And of course, the time he focused ki to his finger to block Trunks's sword.

Of course, putting all of your ki into a strike or a moment of defence is obviously going to leave you drained, like how Goku's Kamehameha against Cell made his ki fall. I think, in my head, I separate them into two arbitrary sort of categories: what Goku is capable of without trying (his standard levels, if you will) and what Goku might be capable of if he focuses his power on a single thing (closer to special techniques).

PS: Hunter x Hunter is a great show if you like thinking about things like this. Not that it isn't a great show without this.