Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[buutenks]

So from that alone some of you got to the conclusion that Trunks should have been finger flicked away? Absurd. Trunks did well, weather you like it or not. Plus Trunks got a rage boost, which allowed him to hold his own.

Either way u look at it, anime Trunks is ssg level. The difference between ssj blue, Black Rose and Zamasu is very small. U can see what happens when a vastly weaker opponent fights someone stronger. Piccolo vs Tagoma, ssj Gohan vs Tagoma, ssj Gohan vs first form Freeza, ssj Goku vs FF Frost. They get destroyed in seconds.

So plot power or not, Trunks did well, and that isnt something u can ignore. Only way it can be ignored is if, in future episodes Zamasu or Black Rose finger flick Trunks. Then u can say that Trunks is way out of his league.

[Chiki]

So from that alone some of you got to the conclusion that Trunks should have been finger flicked away? Absurd. Trunks did well, weather you like it or not. Plus Trunks got a rage boost, which allowed him to hold his own.

Either way u look at it, anime Trunks is ssg level. The difference between ssj blue, Black Rose and Zamasu is very small. U can see what happens when a vastly weaker opponent fights someone stronger. Piccolo vs Tagoma, ssj Gohan vs Tagoma, ssj Gohan vs first form Freeza, ssj Goku vs FF Frost. They get destroyed in seconds.

So plot power or not, Trunks did well, and that isnt something u can ignore. Only way it can be ignored is if, in future episodes Zamasu or Black Rose finger flick Trunks. Then u can say that Trunks is way out of his league.

Yes, Trunks should have been finger flicked away, since Black could basically have done that to Trunks without transformating to SSR anyway... and even Goku himself said Trunks was too weak to handle them.

There's no reason to think Trunks got a major power boost from "training" (nothing more than getting his butt kicked by SSB Vegeta and some lame image training, not even to a Zenkai boost level).

Mai did well, whether you like it or not. She survived a ki blast from Black. Either way you look at it, Mai is SSG level.

Sorbet did well, whether you like it or not. He almost killed SSB Goku in one hit. Either way you look at it, Sorbet is above SSB level.

There's really no point in debating anime power levels since they make no sense. I've given up on it a while ago. The manga power levels make complete sense: anime Trunks is far below SSG level as he got OHKOed by SSG Goku, and before powering up in SS2 was stated to be stronger than Cell Games Gohan. SS2 Trunks is probably above SS3 Buu arc Goku or around that level.

Do you guys really think Trunks is going to magically be SSG level now? He can't even sense god ki. Be reasonable here.

[TheMikado]

I can't believe we're still arguing about this... I'm the anime everyone is literally God tier.

In the manga, no body is God tier except literally the Gods and SSG/SSB and it's not even close at all.

Meanwhile Trunks is now the strongest base and SSJ in both

[Bullza]

Do you guys really think Trunks is going to magically be SSG level now?

Of course he is. You're putting SSJG on a pedestal, it's not that special anymore. It's just Super Saiyan.

You know Vegeta trained and became SSJG level and you know other random aliens from Universe 6 are SSJG level. What's wrong with Trunks being that strong? You know he's comparable to Goku's Super Saiyan forms in the manga so why wouldn't he be comparable in the anime?

It's not like it has to make some kinda logical sense.

[The Monkey King]

It's not like it has to make some kinda logical sense.

Well it should and when it doesn't it's bad writing which hurts my and others enjoyment of the show.

[Cipher]

If the goal of these discussions is to suss out what the intended reading of the series is, rather than to make everything the anime presents mesh together, I can't for the life of me imagine for one second that the intent has been to put so many characters at the level of Super Saiyan God.

Super begins with the premise that Super Saiyan God-level strength is exceptional in providing an enjoyable battle for Beerus. A handful of characters who rise to that level with a sufficient spotlight is expected to keep the series going -- Freeza, Hit (more or less), Goku Black and possibly the Zamasu we saw last episode as the two new villains -- but applying it to every fighter at the Universe 6 tournament and Trunks without any commentary is just ...

If I'm given the choice between the idea that the anime is just inconsistent and theatrical, or that everyone is intentionally written to possess these Super Saiyan God-level powers that are never commented on, the former is more plausible by a wild degree.

[Chiki]

Do you guys really think Trunks is going to magically be SSG level now?

Of course he is. You're putting SSJG on a pedestal, it's not that special anymore. It's just Super Saiyan.

You know Vegeta trained and became SSJG level and you know other random aliens from Universe 6 are SSJG level. What's wrong with Trunks being that strong? You know he's comparable to Goku's Super Saiyan forms in the manga so why wouldn't he be comparable in the anime?

It's not like it has to make some kinda logical sense.

If I'm putting SSG on a pedestal, then so is Toyotaro since SSG Goku OHKOed Trunks in the manga. The writers in the anime team just don't care about power levels, it's that simple. There is no right or wrong answer to anything in the anime. I'm sure that some of the writing team think in terms of the one base theory or some don't, or they don't have any opinion on the matter whatsoever. Thank god for Toyotaro.

Vegeta trained with Whis's help, so that's fine. Trunks training alone and not reaching that level is not fine. Trunks training with Whis and reaching that level is fine, but there's no proof he did so, and we know he didn't do so thanks to the manga.

Yes it does. This episode would've been perfect if not for Trunks's ridiculous performance.

Similarly, I also think Mai surviving a ki blast from Black is horrifically stupid and in the manga, Mai has rocks fall on her instead iirc which is much more logical.

[TheMikado]

It's not like it has to make some kinda logical sense.

Well it should and when it doesn't it's bad writing which hurts my and others enjoyment of the show.

The anime is poorly written period. Even as cipher says it was their intent to make everyone SSG level and far beyond there's no way it should be this ambiguous.

We have SSJ3 and Trunks being nearly 10x stronger than SSG while the manga has them substantially below it. It was never these ambiguous where the we have different widespread trains of thought placing characters at hundreds and thousands of times difference. If this happened in literally any other story we'd declare it one of the worst literary pieces ever. I can't even think of any story across any media that has the same level of ambiguity in plot and narrative, if you can id love to hear it.

[Bullza]

Well it should and when it doesn't it's bad writing which hurts my and others enjoyment of the show.

It's not like it's anything new. It's no different from Piccolo becoming Super Saiyan level in the Android saga.

If I'm given the choice between the idea that the anime is just inconsistent and theatrical, or that everyone is intentionally written to possess these Super Saiyan God-level powers that are never commented on, the former is more plausible by a wild degree.

Well it's a little bit more awkward because Super Saiyan God doesn't actually exist anymore. All those you mentioned, Frieza, Hit, Black and Zamasu were shown to be SSJB because they actually fought against it and proved to be around as strong.

You don't really get that with SSJG, especially in the anime but they said SSJ was equal to SSJG. So any character that compares to SSJ Goku should also compare to SSJG.

Unless you're one of those who believes that SSJ being equal to SSJG was just a one off.

[Chiki]

From this moment on, I encourage everyone here on this thread to no longer talk about the power levels in the anime. They just make no sense and are incomprehensible and it's very clear that the writers themselves don't give a fuck about logic or reason.

[Cipher]

From this moment on, I encourage everyone here on this thread to no longer talk about the power levels in the anime. They just make no sense and are incomprehensible and it's very clear that the writers themselves don't give a fuck about logic or reason.

I don't think it's so much that you can't talk about them, but it certainly requires reading around exactly what's shown on screen to get at the intent.

Which I think is basically what the manga shows us anyway, having avoid retcons and being able to apply attentive-fan-level of consistency to the fights that's not going to happen with the number of people involved in the anime, on top of its tight schedule.

I've never understood these discussions existing without a meta approach in the first place, especially when it's not just Toriyama's work. One writer or storyboard artist allowing Trunks a certain performance in one episode doesn't suddenly rupture the overriding logic of the story. It means they thought it was flashy and it's in there as a one-off inconsistency. Obviously that's not great as far as suspension of disbelief -- like, ideally someone actually would be helping the whole project stay consistent, but oh well. The point is it's unlikely that it's meant to codify any stances on relative power that will be applied moving forward. Sometimes a flashy sequence is just a flashy sequence. Sometimes story logic has to dictate your reading of an individual scene rather than the other way around.

Privileging the latter is exactly why power-level conversations are so frequently mocked.

[buutenks]

Yes, Trunks should have been finger flicked away, since Black could basically have done that to Trunks without transformating to SSR anyway... and even Goku himself said Trunks was too weak to handle them.

There's no reason to think Trunks got a major power boost from "training" (nothing more than getting his butt kicked by SSB Vegeta and some lame image training, not even to a Zenkai boost level).

Mai did well, whether you like it or not. She survived a ki blast from Black. Either way you look at it, Mai is SSG level.

Sorbet did well, whether you like it or not. He almost killed SSB Goku in one hit. Either way you look at it, Sorbet is above SSB level.

There's really no point in debating anime power levels since they make no sense. I've given up on it a while ago. The manga power levels make complete sense: anime Trunks is far below SSG level as he got OHKOed by SSG Goku, and before powering up in SS2 was stated to be stronger than Cell Games Gohan. SS2 Trunks is probably above SS3 Buu arc Goku or around that level.

Do you guys really think Trunks is going to magically be SSG level now? He can't even sense god ki. Be reasonable here.

Lol, yes i believe Trunks is ssjg level. Did u not read my posts?

Also, sorbet fired at ssj blue in the movie. We are talking about anime here,where Goku was in base form and relaxed. Nice try tho. And for Mai, she took a random ki blast and survived, big deal. Did she block Black's attacks with her bare hands or something? Punched him back and sending him flying or something? I dont remember seeing that in any episode, maybe i missed it, would be cool to see tho.

[Bullza]

If I'm putting SSG on a pedestal, then so is Toyotaro since SSG Goku OHKOed Trunks in the manga.

And that's fine. Clearly he's doing his own thing where they didn't absorb the power of God so yeah SSJG is still special in that version and what you say holds true for that version.

In the anime though they're just going with what happened in the movie so he did absorb it. Goku's much stronger in this version because of that and all the characters are stronger to match.

Vegeta trained with Whis's help, so that's fine.

Yeah but what did he do exactly? He trained for 6 months and then he became SSJG level from doing what? He scrubbed a tree, cut the weeds, changed bed sheets, lifted a weight that was half what Goku could lift and...what about that is special?

It's not as though he'd even been sparring with Whis because the first time he did that was when Goku was there. He did chores and became as strong as SSJG essentially.

Trunks training alone and not reaching that level is not fine.

In the manga Trunks was as strong as SSJ3 Goku that doesn't really make sense either. He had no sparring partner, no Gravity machine, no ROSAT, no magical training weights, he didn't get to train on King Kai's, he hadn't been training with Whis and less time had passed for him than Goku by several years.

In both versions he got as strong as Goku because...he trained. That's all there was supposed to be to it.

[buutenks]

Also, why does it matter if everyone is ssg tier? I mean ssg was like idk 4 arcs ago...Its like those people who were annoyed that Trunks and Goten were as strong as ssj1, when at that time ssj1 was trash level. Kinda how now ssg is basically trash level.

If inconsistent PL is needed to make other 'weaker' characters be able to fight the big bads, then i all game to ignoring those PLs.

Plus, i dont see the issue here. The PL logic is still there. It is still Black Rose>ssj Blue>/=Zamasu>ssj Trunks. Its just a smaller gap.

[Noah]

So... Zamasu when watching SSGSS Goku vs Hit saying: "How could a mortal have obtained the power of a god?"

Pretty much confirms the two base theory, right?

If Goku has using God Ki all the time, when he fought as a Super Saiyan 2, Zamasu could have felt it, but he only made this comment after seeing SSGSS in action.

[Cipher]

Pretty much confirms the two base theory, right?

If Goku has using God Ki all the time, when he fought as a Super Saiyan 2, Zamasu could have felt if he was using God Ki or not, but he only made this comment after seeing SSGSS in action.

That was never anyone's reading, from what I saw.

The debate was just over whether or not their base forms were still crazy strong when vanilla Super Saiyan popped up during the Universe 6 arc -- and, if not, how to rectify that with the Resurrection "F" arc (and that Superhuman Water arc with the infamous Gotenks scuffle).

[buutenks]

So... Zamasu when watching SSGSS Goku vs Hit saying: "How could a mortal have obtained the power of a god?"

Pretty much confirms the two base theory, right?

If Goku has using God Ki all the time, when he fought as a Super Saiyan 2, Zamasu could have felt it, but he only made this comment after seeing SSGSS in action.

Ssj Goku took all the power of the god form, and Beerus couldnt sense it. He just deduced it was still burning inside Goku. Basically he transformed that god ki into normal ki and made it his own. So, its not god ki when he goes ssj1-3, his ki is just ridiculously big.

Also:


If you look at it from the anime only where Goku absorbed the god power, starting with bog to now it is like this:

Zeno>2 guards>priest>Vados>Whis>Beerus>Champa>Hit>/=Black Rose>Golden Freeza>/=ssj Blue>/=Zamasu>ssj2 Trunks(rage boost)>/=Black>ssj3 Goku>fpssj2 Trunks>ssj2 Goku>ssj1 Goku=SSG>/=Mageta>FF Frost>Base Goku/Vegeta>Raging Vegeta<Piccolo>/=Base Cabba/Assault form Frost>Mystic Gohan>ssj3 Gotenks>Bog ssj3 Goku>ssj2 Trunks(vs Dabura).

Makes sense to me.

[Chiki]

Yes, Trunks should have been finger flicked away, since Black could basically have done that to Trunks without transformating to SSR anyway... and even Goku himself said Trunks was too weak to handle them.

There's no reason to think Trunks got a major power boost from "training" (nothing more than getting his butt kicked by SSB Vegeta and some lame image training, not even to a Zenkai boost level).

Mai did well, whether you like it or not. She survived a ki blast from Black. Either way you look at it, Mai is SSG level.

Sorbet did well, whether you like it or not. He almost killed SSB Goku in one hit. Either way you look at it, Sorbet is above SSB level.

There's really no point in debating anime power levels since they make no sense. I've given up on it a while ago. The manga power levels make complete sense: anime Trunks is far below SSG level as he got OHKOed by SSG Goku, and before powering up in SS2 was stated to be stronger than Cell Games Gohan. SS2 Trunks is probably above SS3 Buu arc Goku or around that level.

Do you guys really think Trunks is going to magically be SSG level now? He can't even sense god ki. Be reasonable here.

Lol, yes i believe Trunks is ssjg level. Did u not read my posts?

Also, sorbet fired at ssj blue in the movie. We are talking about anime here,where Goku was in base form and relaxed. Nice try tho. And for Mai, she took a random ki blast and survived, big deal. Did she block Black's attacks with her bare hands or something? Punched him back and sending him flying or something? I dont remember seeing that in any episode, maybe i missed it, would be cool to see tho.

Whether or not Trunks is SSG level, this episode is stupid since Trunks was getting casually OHKOed by Base Black. How does any of this make sense even if Trunks is SSG level?

Yes, it is a huge deal that Mai survived a ki blast since even Master Roshi in DB had the power to destroy a planet. Black's random ki blast should be able to incinerate a person don't you think?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

So... Zamasu when watching SSGSS Goku vs Hit saying: "How could a mortal have obtained the power of a god?"

Pretty much confirms the two base theory, right?

If Goku has using God Ki all the time, when he fought as a Super Saiyan 2, Zamasu could have felt it, but he only made this comment after seeing SSGSS in action.

What you're saying makes no sense whatsoever.

When Goku utilizes the power of God, he transforms into Super Saiyan God. When he uses that power in tandem with Super Saiyan, he becomes Super Saiyan Blue.
He can only utilize God Ki in the specialized forms that use it.

[buutenks]

Whether or not Trunks is SSG level, this episode is stupid since Trunks was getting casually OHKOed by Base Black. How does any of this make sense even if Trunks is SSG level?

Yes, it is a huge deal that Mai survived a ki blast since even Master Roshi in DB had the power to destroy a planet. Black's random ki blast should be able to incinerate a person don't you think?

It does, since he got a RAGE boost. Did u not see it? Seriously? Vegeta can get one, but Trunks cant, noo its impossible.

Roshi took a hit from powered up Tagoma, how did he survive? Why didnt he blow up?

U want it to be realistic? Realistically, Mai should have broken most of the bones in her body after the blast threw her in the air and she hit the ground.. So there, why werent her bones broken? Oh right, because its fiction. She survived that ki blast because she is needed alive in the story.