Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Chiki]

Whether or not Trunks is SSG level, this episode is stupid since Trunks was getting casually OHKOed by Base Black. How does any of this make sense even if Trunks is SSG level?

Yes, it is a huge deal that Mai survived a ki blast since even Master Roshi in DB had the power to destroy a planet. Black's random ki blast should be able to incinerate a person don't you think?

It does, since he got a RAGE boost. Did u not see it? Seriously? Vegeta can get one, but Trunks cant, noo its impossible.

Roshi took a hit from powered up Tagoma, how did he survive? Why didnt he blow up?

I hope it was just a rage boost, since that could explain everything in the anime, but it's not stated or shown. I have no problems in theory with Trunks receiving a rage boost.

...Why are you saying this as a counterargument? I'm the one arguing that the anime makes no sense LOL. Yes, you are right, Roshi took a hit from powered up Tagoma, it's bullshit that he didn't blow up. I agree completely.

[TheMikado]

So... Zamasu when watching SSGSS Goku vs Hit saying: "How could a mortal have obtained the power of a god?"

Pretty much confirms the two base theory, right?

If Goku has using God Ki all the time, when he fought as a Super Saiyan 2, Zamasu could have felt it, but he only made this comment after seeing SSGSS in action.

What you're saying makes no sense whatsoever.

When Goku utilizes the power of God, he transforms into Super Saiyan God. When he uses that power in tandem with Super Saiyan, he becomes Super Saiyan Blue.
He can only utilize God Ki in the specialized forms that use it.

No there are people who feel they have permanently absorbed it making their base form and subsequent SSJ forms a God tier level in terms of power. Basically every SSJ form is now stronger than SSG in the anime.

[buutenks]

I hope it was just a rage boost, since that could explain everything in the anime, but it's not stated or shown. I have no problems in theory with Trunks receiving a rage boost.

...Why are you saying this as a counterargument? I'm the one arguing that the anime makes no sense LOL. Yes, you are right, Roshi took a hit from powered up Tagoma, it's bullshit that he didn't blow up. I agree completely.

He did get a rage boost, his aura tripled in size and he was screaming in rage. He jumped from ssj2 god level to close to ssj blue level. Trunks in the anime was already above ssg level, before the rage boost.

Mai survived, Roshi survived, what is the big deal?

[Cipher]

Also, why does it matter if everyone is ssg tier? I mean ssg was like idk 4 arcs ago...Its like those people who were annoyed that Trunks and Goten were as strong as ssj1, when at that time ssj1 was trash level. Kinda how now ssg is basically trash level.

If inconsistent PL is needed to make other 'weaker' characters be able to fight the big bads, then i all game to ignoring those PLs.

Plus, i dont see the issue here. The PL logic is still there. It is still Black Rose>ssj Blue>/=Zamasu>ssj Trunks. Its just a smaller gap.

It's a little bit different as far as its effects on the story and how coherent the universe is.

In the Boo arc, Super Saiyan may no longer be a relevant level of strength, but we're provided justifications for each character to surpass it (and it's made clear that they have). Goten and Trunks may be unexpected, but the story is explicit about what it gives us and what that means -- they were able to become Super Saiyans from an early age. Okay! Even in the manga now, where you have Trunks able to work Super Saiyan 2 up to a level that rival's Goku's Super Saiyan 3 -- well, that's a new thing, but okay! That's all presented explicitly and explained. Nothing makes more or less sense from a story perspective because of it.

If everyone from Trunks to the Zamasu Goku fights in the past is quietly Super Saiyan God-level, it's much harder to figure out why it's going without comment, or why Super Saiyan God excited Beerus in the first place. He could have hopped over to Universe 10 and fought Zamasu, with whom he had prior acquaintance, for a kick.

They could certainly take that route, but I doubt they'd do so quietly if that were the intent. The series, for all its escalation, has never worked like that.

[buutenks]

It's a little bit different as far as its effects on the story and how coherent the universe is.

In the Boo arc, Super Saiyan may no longer be a relevant level of strength, but we're provided justifications for each character to surpass it (and it's made clear that they have). Goten and Trunks may be unexpected, but the story is explicit about what it gives us and what that means -- they were able to become Super Saiyans from an early age. Okay! Even in the manga now, where you have Trunks able to work Super Saiyan 2 up to a level that rival's Goku's Super Saiyan 3 -- well, that's a new thing, but okay! That's all presented explicitly and explained. Nothing makes more or less sense from a story perspective because of it.

If everyone from Trunks to the Zamasu Goku fights in the past is quietly Super Saiyan God-level, it's much harder to figure out why it's going without comment, or why Super Saiyan God excited Beerus in the first place. He could have hopped over to Universe 10 and fought Zamasu, with whom he had prior acquaintance, for a kick.

They could certainly take that route, but I doubt they'd do so quietly if that were the intent. The series, for all its escalation, has never worked like that.

Beerus never met Zamasu before tho, since Gowasu just introduced him in ep 53. Plus, even if he did somehow saw him at some point, no doubt he was much weaker back then.

Until in the anime it is mentioned that Trunks isnt really that strong, then we can only go by what is shown.

[TheMikado]

^ this is literally why power levels matter this time. But whatever, I'm thoroughly convinced the entirety of Super is a Toei invention, including this so called story outline.

[Cipher]

Beerus never met Zamasu before tho, since Gowasu just introduced him in ep 53. Plus, even if he did somehow saw him at some point, no doubt he was much weaker back then.

Is it Whis or Beerus who first recalls that Black's ki feels like Zamasu's? One of them is familiar with him.

Until in the anime it is mentioned that Trunks isnt really that strong, then we can only go by what is shown.

We're going to have to part ways on that. I suppose whatever you feel meshes with the overall approach of the series better is the one to go with. With the number of hands involved, I don't think at any point that the exact execution of a scene takes precedence in sussing out how the story/world is intended to work as a whole.

But whatever, I'm thoroughly convinced the entirety of Super is a Toei invention, including this so called story outline.

There's way too much weird, completely-irreverent-toward-its-audience Toriyama stuff in it for that to even possibly be the case.

[Bullza]

Whether or not Trunks is SSG level, this episode is stupid since Trunks was getting casually OHKOed by Base Black. How does any of this make sense even if Trunks is SSG level?

That was when Black first showed up wasn't it? Wasn't that supposed to be whole year before now?

[buutenks]

We still know who is stronger than who tho. So, how is PL logic in the anime so flawed?

As for ssg level? Which character was ssg level in universe 7 prior to BoG?

[ZombieVito]

Beerus never met Zamasu before tho, since Gowasu just introduced him in ep 53. Plus, even if he did somehow saw him at some point, no doubt he was much weaker back then.

Until in the anime it is mentioned that Trunks isnt really that strong, then we can only go by what is shown.

Why do you continue to ignore this?

Zamasu even said "You can fight me as much as you'd like to prove you are weak".

[buutenks]

Beerus never met Zamasu before tho, since Gowasu just introduced him in ep 53. Plus, even if he did somehow saw him at some point, no doubt he was much weaker back then.

Until in the anime it is mentioned that Trunks isnt really that strong, then we can only go by what is shown.

Why do you continue to ignore this?

Zamasu even said "You can fight me as much as you'd like to prove you are weak".

Ok, how weak is 'weak'?

[Alee9977]

Beerus never met Zamasu before tho, since Gowasu just introduced him in ep 53. Plus, even if he did somehow saw him at some point, no doubt he was much weaker back then.

Until in the anime it is mentioned that Trunks isnt really that strong, then we can only go by what is shown.

Why do you continue to ignore this?

Zamasu even said "You can fight me as much as you'd like to prove you are weak".

Ok, how weak is 'weak'?

Weaker than Zamasu... Not in god tier.

[Chiki]

Beerus never met Zamasu before tho, since Gowasu just introduced him in ep 53. Plus, even if he did somehow saw him at some point, no doubt he was much weaker back then.

Until in the anime it is mentioned that Trunks isnt really that strong, then we can only go by what is shown.

Why do you continue to ignore this?

Zamasu even said "You can fight me as much as you'd like to prove you are weak".

This is definitely a mistranslation.

We still know who is stronger than who tho. So, how is PL logic in the anime so flawed?

As for ssg level? Which character was ssg level in universe 7 prior to BoG?

No, we have no idea how strong Trunks is whatsoever. He goes from getting owned by SSB Vegeta to fighting on an equal level with SSR Black for a bit to overpowering Future Zamasu? The same guy who can't even sense any god ki although Base Goku can? Wtf?

He did get a rage boost, his aura tripled in size and he was screaming in rage. He jumped from ssj2 god level to close to ssj blue level. Trunks in the anime was already above ssg level, before the rage boost.

Mai survived, Roshi survived, what is the big deal?

Why can't SS2 Trunks sense SSB Vegeta's ki while Base Goku, Golden Frieza and Hit can? If he's god level?

It's stupid? Logic dictates you need to be a certain power level to survive blasts from strong enemies.. so how can Mai survive a ki blast from Base Black? If Black attacked me with the same ki blast I'd evaporate into dust.

That was when Black first showed up wasn't it? Wasn't that supposed to be whole year before now?

First, if you read the conversation carefully it's clear that they met before. Trunks would have been surprised about Black looking like Goku. Second, Black also owned Trunks easily despite Trunks catching Black off guard at first during their last meeting. Black has only become stronger since fighting Goku in the present. Therefore, logic dictates that SSR Black should just finger flick Trunks's attacks, SSG or no. It makes no difference. This is bullshit no matter your view.

[Bullza]

Weaker than Zamasu... Not in god tier.

Why does him being weaker than Zamasu mean he wouldn't be in God tier? It's not like Zamasu is only just God tier if he's as strong as Super Saiyan Blue.

[buutenks]

Thankfully, PL being wonky doesnt bother me. I just know that Trunks is below Black Rose, ssj blue and Zamasu.

[Chiki]

Thankfully, PL being wonky doesnt bother me. I just know that Trunks is below Black Rose, ssj blue and Zamasu.

Good for you, but some people do want the anime that they watch to have reasonable power levels.

Let's put aside the "Trunks is god level" debate.

It's absolutely unarguable that Trunks shouldn't have been able to do what he did this ep, god level or no:

1. Trunks got owned by Black very quickly in every meeting, including their last one. He only did slightly better against Black in the last one because Mai died and he got pissed, but even then he only got one good hit in and got owned quickly afterwards.
2. Black got a massive power boost from fighting Goku in the present.
3. Trunks didn't really get a power boost in the present. He barely did any training apart from getting beaten up by Vegeta a bit (not enough for a Zenkai boost) and some image training.
4. Black went SSR while Trunks always used SS2 against Black.

So it's always been SSR Black >>>>>>>>>> Base Black >>>>>>>>>>>> SS2 Trunks >>>>>>>>>> SS Trunks >>>>>>>>> Trunks

How does it go to SSR Black >>>> SS2 Trunks?

[buutenks]

Thankfully, PL being wonky doesnt bother me. I just know that Trunks is below Black Rose, ssj blue and Zamasu.

Good for you, but some people do want the anime that they watch to have reasonable power levels.

Let's put aside the "Trunks is god level" debate.

It's absolutely unarguable that Trunks shouldn't have been able to do what he did this ep, god level or no:

1. Trunks got owned by Black very quickly in every meeting, including their last one. He only did slightly better against Black in the last one because Mai died and he got pissed, but even then he only got one good hit in and got owned quickly afterwards.
2. Black got a massive power boost from fighting Goku in the present.
3. Trunks didn't really get a power boost in the present. He barely did any training apart from getting beaten up by Vegeta a bit (not enough for a Zenkai boost) and some image training.
4. Black went SSR while Trunks always used SS2 against Black.

So it's always been SSR Black >>>>>>>>>> Base Black >>>>>>>>>>>> SS2 Trunks >>>>>>>>>> SS Trunks >>>>>>>>> Trunks

How does it go to SSR Black >>>> SS2 Trunks?

Dunno, plot power perhaps?

[GodKaio-Ken]

Didn't Zamasu say "You can fight me as much as you want until you realize you are weak" or something similar? I don't get why people think Trunks is God level...Zamasu was obviously screwing with him to show no matter what Trunks did he was a powerless mortal facing a God.

That is how I took it anyway.

[TheMikado]

But whatever, I'm thoroughly convinced the entirety of Super is a Toei invention, including this so called story outline.

There's way too much weird, completely-irreverent-toward-its-audience Toriyama stuff in it for that to even possibly be the case.

No not really, nothing about the Gods of Destruction even sounds like a Toriyama invention, and it wasn't. That concept and making Goku a God was all Toei although Toriyama reworked the script after they gave it to him. My point is Super feels more like a carefully orchestrated corporate focus group asked what would make the next DB series awesome. Hence we get God tier, multiple color SSJ, Future Trunks, Frieza's return, Ginyu, recycled & evil versions characters, etc. on and on. It's like Toei handed Toriyama a bunch of concept to stuff into his outline and Super's the result.

[buutenks]

Didn't Zamasu say "You can fight me as much as you want until you realize you are weak" or something similar? I don't get why people think Trunks is God level...Zamasu was obviously screwing with him to show no matter what Trunks did he was a powerless mortal facing a God.

That is how I took it anyway.

Well, Trunks fought Black Rose also, and did pretty good. Also, Zamasu is immortal, so attacks dont hurt him.

Anyways Chiki, were it up to you how would u correct the fight vs zamasu and black rose?