Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

It's absolutely unarguable that Trunks shouldn't have been able to do what he did this ep, god level or no

Well the preview did say his power had greatly increased for this episode.

[Cipher]

No not really, nothing about the Gods of Destruction even sounds like a Toriyama invention, and it wasn't. That concept and making Goku a God was all Toei although Toriyama reworked the script after they gave it to him. My point is Super feels more like a carefully orchestrated corporate focus group asked what would make the next DB series awesome. Hence we get God tier, multiple color SSJ, Future Trunks, Frieza's return, Ginyu, recycled & evil versions characters, etc. on and on. It's like Toei handed Toriyama a bunch of concept to stuff into his outline and Super's the result.

I'm aware the seed for the God of Destruction is a Toei invention, but the recolors, the slimmed down Super Saiyan God design, and the absurdity of the higher gods are out of their norm and not at all audience-pandering.

Super does feel like focus-group-tested Toriyama, but -- spoilers for some long post I'll eventually write -- that's one of my misgivings with the series as a whole. There are elements that totally have his stamp on them being wasted among other compromises and safe choices.

Anyway, back to stronkgth talk.

[TheMikado]

No not really, nothing about the Gods of Destruction even sounds like a Toriyama invention, and it wasn't. That concept and making Goku a God was all Toei although Toriyama reworked the script after they gave it to him. My point is Super feels more like a carefully orchestrated corporate focus group asked what would make the next DB series awesome. Hence we get God tier, multiple color SSJ, Future Trunks, Frieza's return, Ginyu, recycled & evil versions characters, etc. on and on. It's like Toei handed Toriyama a bunch of concept to stuff into his outline and Super's the result.

I'm aware the seed for the God of Destruction is a Toei invention, but the recolors, the slimmed down Super Saiyan God design, and the absurdity of the higher gods are out of their norm and not at all audience-pandering.

Super does feel like focus-group-tested Toriyama, but -- spoilers for some long post I'll eventually write -- that's one of my misgivings with the series as a whole. There are elements that totally have his stamp on them being wasted among other compromises and safe choices.

Anyway, back to stronkgth talk.

Fair enough, I concede there are distinctly Toriyama contributions, but the seems to be becoming less and less as time goes on. That said it is a topic for another conversation.

[ZombieVito]

It's absolutely unarguable that Trunks shouldn't have been able to do what he did this ep, god level or no

Well the preview did say his power had greatly increased for this episode.

Trunks is getting too much fucking love.

Not only did he surpassed SSJ3 Vegetto in 10 years but now he gets considerably stronger in just one day?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

So... Zamasu when watching SSGSS Goku vs Hit saying: "How could a mortal have obtained the power of a god?"

Pretty much confirms the two base theory, right?

If Goku has using God Ki all the time, when he fought as a Super Saiyan 2, Zamasu could have felt it, but he only made this comment after seeing SSGSS in action.

What you're saying makes no sense whatsoever.

When Goku utilizes the power of God, he transforms into Super Saiyan God. When he uses that power in tandem with Super Saiyan, he becomes Super Saiyan Blue.
He can only utilize God Ki in the specialized forms that use it.

No there are people who feel they have permanently absorbed it making their base form and subsequent SSJ forms a God tier level in terms of power. Basically every SSJ form is now stronger than SSG in the anime.

This doesn't address anything that I said, nor does it make sense.

Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God's power. It did not turn into his base form. He can still transform into it. Goku not losing power after reverting back from Super Saiyan God initially is irrelevant.

[Chiki]

Thankfully, PL being wonky doesnt bother me. I just know that Trunks is below Black Rose, ssj blue and Zamasu.

Good for you, but some people do want the anime that they watch to have reasonable power levels.

Let's put aside the "Trunks is god level" debate.

It's absolutely unarguable that Trunks shouldn't have been able to do what he did this ep, god level or no:

1. Trunks got owned by Black very quickly in every meeting, including their last one. He only did slightly better against Black in the last one because Mai died and he got pissed, but even then he only got one good hit in and got owned quickly afterwards.
2. Black got a massive power boost from fighting Goku in the present.
3. Trunks didn't really get a power boost in the present. He barely did any training apart from getting beaten up by Vegeta a bit (not enough for a Zenkai boost) and some image training.
4. Black went SSR while Trunks always used SS2 against Black.

So it's always been SSR Black >>>>>>>>>> Base Black >>>>>>>>>>>> SS2 Trunks >>>>>>>>>> SS Trunks >>>>>>>>> Trunks

How does it go to SSR Black >>>> SS2 Trunks?

Dunno, plot power perhaps?

That's exactly what I've been saying! If that is the case, then Trunks doesn't have to be SSG level!

Well, Trunks fought Black Rose also, and did pretty good. Also, Zamasu is immortal, so attacks dont hurt him.

Anyways Chiki, were it up to you how would u correct the fight vs zamasu and black rose?

I wouldn't have SSB Goku fight Zamasu at all even if he's immortal, because then it would make sense for Trunks to overpower Zamasu. I also wouldn't have Trunks have a short fight with SSR Black. Only one sneak attack. I'd also have Goku move to the front to tank the Kamehameha.

[Chiki]

It's absolutely unarguable that Trunks shouldn't have been able to do what he did this ep, god level or no

Well the preview did say his power had greatly increased for this episode.

It could easily be not canon; it was never stated in the anime itself. Maybe there was a mistaken assumption with the Jump magazine staff when they got information from Toei for their preview.

Also a bit of image training and getting beaten up by SSB Vegeta will not make Trunks stronger than Base Black lol. Base Black himself got a huge power up and that was already mentioned.

[TheMikado]

What you're saying makes no sense whatsoever.

When Goku utilizes the power of God, he transforms into Super Saiyan God. When he uses that power in tandem with Super Saiyan, he becomes Super Saiyan Blue.
He can only utilize God Ki in the specialized forms that use it.

No there are people who feel they have permanently absorbed it making their base form and subsequent SSJ forms a God tier level in terms of power. Basically every SSJ form is now stronger than SSG in the anime.

This doesn't address anything that I said, nor does it make sense.

Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God's power. It did not turn into his base form. He can still transform into it. Goku not losing power after reverting back from Super Saiyan God initially is irrelevant.

I think you are mixing the anime and manga.
In the manga they still have SSG and its above everything except SSB. In the anime it's the opposite where SSG level is lower than current SSJ with the only thing about SSJ3 is SSB.

[Bullza]

Well it depends on the individual whether or not to believe that.

If he was beaten by Base Black somewhat easily before but now he's briefly able to hold his own against SSJB level opponents then it makes sense that the preview says his power has greatly increased.

Maybe the magazine staff made the mistake in assuming the increase was through training. Maybe it was some late rage boost. I don't know, the preview said he got a lot stronger, in the anime he seemed a lot stronger so that's good enough for me.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No there are people who feel they have permanently absorbed it making their base form and subsequent SSJ forms a God tier level in terms of power. Basically every SSJ form is now stronger than SSG in the anime.

This doesn't address anything that I said, nor does it make sense.

Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God's power. It did not turn into his base form. He can still transform into it. Goku not losing power after reverting back from Super Saiyan God initially is irrelevant.

I think you are mixing the anime and manga.
In the manga they still have SSG and its above everything except SSB. In the anime it's the opposite where SSG level is lower than current SSJ with the only thing about SSJ3 is SSB.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

If Goku uses Super Saiyan God, of course it's going to be above all of his other forms except for Super Saiyan Blue.

When Goku reverted from Super Saiyan God to a regular Super Saiyan, he didn't lose power. In that way, you could say that the current Super Saiyan Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku during his fight with Beerus.

Current Super Saiyan God Goku isn't weaker than current Super Saiyan Goku. That is his strongest form outside of Super Saiyan Blue.

[Alee9977]

In the manga, did Goku absorb the SSG power? He keeps fighting Bills in that state until the end unlike the anime, where he absorbs it and doesn't need that transformation anymore because his power won't increase.

Manga
Base Goku < SSJ Goku < SSG Goku < SSB Goku

Anime
Base Goku < SSJ Goku = SSG Goku << SSB Goku

[ssbgoku]

In the manga, did Goku absorb the SSG power? He keeps fighting Bills in that state until the end unlike the anime, where he absorbs it and doesn't need that transformation anymore because his power won't increase.

Manga
Base Goku < SSJ Goku < SSG Goku < SSB Goku

Anime
Base Goku < SSJ Goku = SSG Goku << SSB Goku

Disagree actually both manga and anime are the same, it was just poor choice of words and one of the interpretation in rof why people are confused about base goku > bog ss goku =ssg goku. I am sure Krillin only compared goku to his base form against beerus in last effort to destroy beerus orb. Also SS goku was noted to hang on burning crimson fire which allowed him to keep ssg power for more time and prolong it fading away effect. I take it just as one time thing.

Let's say in bog post god ss goku(one time thing) with crimson fire = ssg goku. Then let's assume ssg is multiplier, then we can get base goku as strong as he was previously albeit powered up due to fighting strong opponent. Another interpretation is that post god ss goku was just prototype of ssb, which would also lower base goku to great degree.

I guess Anime screwed divine ki and divine world of gods with neither Golden freeza or Hit having divine ki but still being as strong as ssb or around it, if only they had divine ki then it would clear as day that mortal ki can not equal amount of god ki not matter what... which would be essence of bog and why it was brought up...

About episode itself: Trunks suprised goku Black who was just playing with goku(prey) as he knows goku was overmatched by him and Zamasu tagging on him, so that why Trunks could initialy blocks him then trippled his aura and with rage boost send him flying. Zamasu was just screwing up with him too, as he said: "Super Saiyan power is powerless against gods", interestingly he didn't say any stuff like that about ssb goku, which would shows gaps between them. Also he was cleary struggling against ssb goku who was already pretty beaten up from fighting against not holding back ssr black, so I don't see any problem with it.

About Kamehameha, well goku wanted Trunks out of way for reason, and most likely he shifted his position enough to take most of damage or Zamasu even did it as he wanted both of them barerly alive and goku was just stronger then Trunks. However I am sure Trunks suprassed ss3 current goku's level with ss2 and with rage boost even goku Black base form at least...

[apex_pretador]

this thread needs to be closed. There is nothing that anyone can justify now.

[ssbgoku]

Here go mine list:

Beerus- 1000
Ssr black - 820
ssb goku/vegeta - 800
Golden freeza - 800
Zamasu - 780
Hit - 750
ssg goku - 600
Crimson fire ss goku - 600
Ss2 trunks - 300
Goku black - 250
Dbs ss3 goku - 60
Dbs ss2 goku/vegeta- 15
Dbs ss goku/vegeta - 7.5
Magenta - 3
Final form frost - 2
Dbs Base goku - 0.15
Final form freeza - 0.1
Rest of u6, picoolo, gohan , gotenks

[TheMikado]

This doesn't address anything that I said, nor does it make sense.

Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God's power. It did not turn into his base form. He can still transform into it. Goku not losing power after reverting back from Super Saiyan God initially is irrelevant.

I think you are mixing the anime and manga.
In the manga they still have SSG and its above everything except SSB. In the anime it's the opposite where SSG level is lower than current SSJ with the only thing about SSJ3 is SSB.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

If Goku uses Super Saiyan God, of course it's going to be above all of his other forms except for Super Saiyan Blue.

When Goku reverted from Super Saiyan God to a regular Super Saiyan, he didn't lose power. In that way, you could say that the current Super Saiyan Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku during his fight with Beerus.

Current Super Saiyan God Goku isn't weaker than current Super Saiyan Goku. That is his strongest form outside of Super Saiyan Blue.

Look I don't even know what you're talking about

IN THE ANIME there is NO current SSG!!!! period. It's gone, done, non existent anymore. It literally was never seen again since BoG arc.

IN THE MANGA the SSG form STILL exists and is stronger than all his other SSJ transformations except SSB.

Why is this so hard to understand???

[TheMikado]

this thread needs to be closed. There is nothing that anyone can justify now.

It would probably be easier to cancel the anime or put it on hiatus until the promo manga runs its course and then build a Super Kai off of that. I'm not sure how Toei after all these past experiences specifically with Dragonball still managed to cause such a mess.

[Khin]

I personally don't see any problem in the latest episode, here's my numbers for Black, Zamasu, Trunks, Goku, and Vegeta (And some explanations):

Goku/Vegeta: 1
-- Super Saiyan: 50
-- Super Saiyan 2: 100
-- Super Saiyan 3: 400
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 800

Future Trunks: 0.6
-- Super Saiyan: 30
-- Super Saiyan 2: 60
-- FP Super Saiyan 2: 300
-- Post Vegeta training: 650

Why Trunks got that much stronger after fighting Vegeta ? I made it to make Trunks closer to Black and Zamasu, i just followed Toriyama's comment about Saiyans rapidly getting stronger after fighting strong opponents, in this case Trunks got stronger by fighting a stronger SSB Vegeta. This is also my explanation as to why Goku and Vegeta got stronger than they were in the tournament, cause of their fight with Hit. So Trunks getting that stronger in 10 years is a mix of hard training and his many fights with Goku Black.

Goku Black: 400
-- Pre Rosé: 700
-- Super Saiyan Rosé: 980

Black stated he got stronger after fighting Vegeta, so we should consider that. Rosé Black doesn't seem to be leagues above Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta, so that placement seems perfect for him.

Future Zamasu: 700

Goku (After fighting Present Zamasu) stated that Zamasu has the potential to become much stronger, i that's what happened here and why Future Zamasu is way stronger than his present counterpart.

Alternatively, i could also use a 500x boost for Super Saiyan Blue.

Latest episode basically implies that if Trunks were to achieve Super Saiyan Blue, he would destroy Black and Zamasu. Which will possibly happen in the future ?

[emperior]

BoG Arc

[spoiler]Goku
Base - 75
SSJ - 3,750
SSJ2 - 7,500
SSJ3 - 15,000
SSG - 650,000

Vegeta
Base - 74
SSJ - 3,700
SSJ2 - 7,400
SSJ2 Enraged - 96,000

Beerus
Unseen True Power - 10,000,000

From now on, I'm going to assume Beerus used 10% of his true power and then scaled his power basing on the foes he had, just to have fun

Full Power - 1,000,000
vs SSJ3 Goku, at 5% - 50,000
vs Enraged Vegeta, at 10% - 100,000
vs God Goku, at 70% - 700,000

Whis
Full Power - 15,000,000[/spoiler]

RoF Arc

[spoiler]Goku
Base - 500
God Ki - 15,000
SSB - 750,000

Vegeta
Base - 500
God Ki - 15,000
SSB - 750,000

Freezer
1st Form - 100
4th Form - 16,000
Golden - 800,000
Exhausted - 400,000

(Golden Form is 50x of Freezer's 4th form)

Gohan
Base - 70
SSJ - 3,500

Tagoma
Pre-Training - 10
Post-Training - 3,500
Possessed by Ginyu - 3,000[/spoiler]

Universal Tournament Arc


Gods

[spoiler]Whis - 15,000,000

Beerus - 10,000,000

Vados - 15,200,000

Champa - 9,900,000[/spoiler]

U7 Fighters

[spoiler]Goku
Base - 900
God Ki - 19,000
SSJ - 45,000
SSB - 950,000
SSB + KKx2 - 1,900,000
SSB + KKx10 - 9,500,000

Vegeta

Base - 900
God Ki - 19,000
SSJ - 45,000
SSB - 950,000

Piccolo - 15,000

Mr Buu - 50,000

Monaka - 1[/spoiler]

U6 Fighters

[spoiler]Botamo - 500

Frost
1st Form - 500
Assault Form - 10,000
Final Form - 25,000

Otto Magetta - 50,000

Cabba
Base - 800
SSJ - 40,000

Hit - ???[/spoiler]


Black Arc

[spoiler]Future Trunks
Base - 1,000
SSJ - 50,000
SSJ2 - 100,000

Trunks (after senzu + training)
Base - 1,500
SSJ - 75,000
SSJ2 - 150,000
SSJ2 Full Power - 200,000

Black
Base Full Power - 150,000
After fight with Goku - 200,000
SSR Full Power - 10,000,000

Goku
Base - 1,000
SSJ - 50,000
SSJ2 - 100,000
SSJ3 - 200,000

Goku (after 1st battle vs Zamasu)
Base - 1,200
SSB - 1,000,000
SSB Wounded - 200,000

Vegeta
Base - 1,000
Base after training - 1,200
SSB - 1,000,000

Zamasu - 75,000

Immortal Zamasu - 150,000[/spoiler]


If you guys have some advice to better adjust my list, or find something incorrect, please tell me by quoting this post if possible!

[ekrolo2]

Latest episode basically implies that if Trunks were to achieve Super Saiyan Blue, he would destroy Black and Zamasu. Which will possibly happen in the future ?

The latest episode implies that Trunks is so much better at bullshit power ups than any other character in the history of DB that he could probably kill Whis if he got the God forms. Considering the fact he's comperable to SSBlue Goku with JUST Super Saiyan says as much.

I also don't but the whole "Saiyan's get stronger after fighting a strong opponent thing". That's what Zenkai were and they don't exist anymore, if they did the show would point them out. Plus, Trunks fought Black over and over and over again and it did nothing to raise his power. He fights Vegeta once? He's suddenly got the biggest base strength out of all the good guys, after one day.

No, Trunks' power in the anime is total horse shit.

[buutenks]

this thread needs to be closed. There is nothing that anyone can justify now.

It would probably be easier to cancel the anime or put it on hiatus until the promo manga runs its course and then build a Super Kai off of that. I'm not sure how Toei after all these past experiences specifically with Dragonball still managed to cause such a mess.

Thank God you aren't in charge. Since that is a dumb thing which u just said. To cancel the anime, just because some fans don't want to accept characters powering up quickly.

And I enjoy the anime, I find the manga utterly boring and hollow.