What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy?

[fadeddreams5]

That only time is the same exact thing, they let their emotions get the better of them. They wanted a fight, not what was best or most expedient, in both situations. The arc wouldn't have been better for letting Gotenks or Gohan save the day, they aren't as interesting as Goku and Vegeta in the main roles, plus Vegeta's "you are number one" speech is way better than anything that could've occurred had Gohan been the hero.

It's not really the same thing. One scenario involves being directly manipulated, and the other scenario involves complete lack of control over a new power. This was just them being stupid, which isn't new (see: android saga), but even then, this wasn't even the case of pride. Goku considered bringing Gotenks and Gohan to the battlefield, but Vegeta stopped him and opted for a spirit bomb. They were fighting for their life and the fate of the universe at this point, not because they were having fun and wanted the thrill of competition. They didn't need to do this.

And I disagree that the arc wouldn't have been better with Gohan and Gotenks.

[ABED]

Vegeta was manipulated because he wanted a good fight. The first one was also Vegeta being stupid

They didn't need to do this.

And Vegeta didn't need to let Cell play him like a fiddle. He was also fighting for the fate of the universe, but instead of doing the right thing, he cared more about the thrill of the fight. It's the same thing in the Buu arc, but at the very least, Gohan and Gotenks were still alive to defeat Buu if the worst was to happen. No such luck with Cell. Vegeta had zero idea how strong Cell would get.

And I disagree that the arc wouldn't have been better with Gohan and Gotenks.

Gohan isn't suited for the main hero role and neither is Gotenks. Gotenks undercuts any sense of tension. It's not a good idea to switch main characters in a long running series towards the end.

[Doctor.]

Gohan isn't suited for the main hero role

This complaint is nonsensical. Gohan isn't suited for the role of the main hero because Toriyama never bothered to write him that way. He could easily fit into that mold if the author wanted, this is a fictional character whose personality can be altered at any time.

[fadeddreams5]

Gohan isn't suited for the main hero role

This complaint is nonsensical. Gohan isn't suited for the role of the main hero because Toriyama never bothered to write him that way. He could easily fit into that mold if the author wanted, this is a fictional character whose personality can be altered at any time.

Pretty much this.

Add to the fact that the Buu saga had Goku as a supporting character until the Kid Buu arc. They built up Gohan as the savior and main character (just look at the opening!), and could have gone all the way with that decision when he went ultimate. The fact that they didn't has been heavily criticized by the majority of the fanbase.

And Vegeta didn't need to let Cell play him like a fiddle. He was also fighting for the fate of the universe, but instead of doing the right thing, he cared more about the thrill of the fight. It's the same thing in the Buu arc, but at the very least, Gohan and Gotenks were still alive to defeat Buu if the worst was to happen. No such luck with Cell. Vegeta had zero idea how strong Cell would get.

It wasn't the same thing in the Kid Buu arc. Goku suggested bringing Gohan and Gotenks to the fight, but Vegeta opted for a spirit bomb. That has nothing to do with wanting a challenge. As for fusion, it was one thing to reject the offer, but another to completely destroy the earring. Kid Buu was never a threat. Semi-Perfect Cell wasn't, but it was his cunning that allowed him to win in the end.

[rereboy]

Gohan isn't suited for the main hero role

This complaint is nonsensical. Gohan isn't suited for the role of the main hero because Toriyama never bothered to write him that way. He could easily fit into that mold if the author wanted, this is a fictional character whose personality can be altered at any time.

Authors can't alter their character's personality at any time... If they did, their character's would be terribly inconsistent. It takes a great writer and a good amount of development to make a character actually change their personality, and it's certainly not easy. Haven't you ever heard of authors talking like their characters wrote themselves and sometimes the author discovering that the character doesn't want to do a certain role even though the author had planned such? That's because many authors dive inside their characters and instinctively notice what feels natural for them and what doesn't, and sometimes what they notice even goes against what they had planned initially.

So, no, unless you want characters to be terribly inconsistent and doing what doesn't feel natural to the author, they can't be changed at any time and it's not easy to change them.

[Doctor.]

Authors can't alter their character's personality at any time... If they did, their character's would be terribly inconsistent. It takes a great writer and a good amount of development to make a character actually change their personality, and it's certainly not easy. Haven't you ever heard of authors talking like their characters wrote themselves and sometimes the author discovering that the character doesn't want to do a certain role even though the author had planned such? That's because many authors dive inside their characters and instinctively notice what feels natural for them and what doesn't, and sometimes what they notice even goes against what they had planned initially.

So, no, unless you want characters to be terribly inconsistent and doing what doesn't feel natural to the author, they can't be changed at any time and it's not easy to change them.

What would be terribly inconsistent about having Gohan as the main character, though? It already happened in the Cell arc, the Boo arc built him up as the ultimate warrior and he got character development by the end that was supposed to make him the hero his dad always wanted him to be. Of course doing a complete 180 with a character makes them terribly inconsistent without proper development, but that's not the case with Gohan. This is about making the character more reliable, that's doable if the author wants to; he didn't.

[ABED]

But Gohan wasn't the main character in the Cell arc, he became the main hero at the end, but he wasn't the main character. Being in the main role doesn't equal being good in it.

That has nothing to do with wanting a challenge.

But it's from a similar place, though not quite as much due to insecurity. Goku and Vegeta fought without fusing because they wanted it to be a fair fight. Buu was stripped of the people he had absorbed, so Goku and Vegeta felt it would be unfair to get the advantage fusion gave them.

Kid Buu was never a threat.

Neither was Cell until Vegeta made him one.

The fact that they didn't has been heavily criticized by the majority of the fanbase.

What's your basis for calling it a majority? The only reason Gohan is "built up" as this savior is because he keeps getting his full power unlocked. It gets cheap after a while. It's not as compelling as watching a character push himself to his limit.

that was supposed to make him the hero his dad always wanted him to be.

I don't think that's what Goku always wanted him to be.

[Doctor.]

But Gohan wasn't the main character in the Cell arc, he became the main hero at the end, but he wasn't the main character. Being in the main role doesn't equal being good in it.

One could say the same exact thing about Goku in the Boo arc.

[ABED]

But Gohan wasn't the main character in the Cell arc, he became the main hero at the end, but he wasn't the main character. Being in the main role doesn't equal being good in it.

One could say the same exact thing about Goku in the Boo arc.

THat he wasn't the main hero? Agreed, Gohan was, but i don't think it was for the better.

[rereboy]

What would be terribly inconsistent about having Gohan as the main character, though? It already happened in the Cell arc,

You mean, in the arc where it's noticeable that the author went out of his way to make Gohan act in a way inconsistent with his previous demeanor just to add drama to his eventual victory over Cell? Yeah, that's pretty much what happens when the author thinks he can just change a character because of the plot without good character development. And my point isn't really about Gohan, really, it's about your statements regarding changing character's personalities just like that. Gohan in Dragon Ball is a mess because, after the Namek arc, there are times where the author changes the character to serve the plot and others where he actually thinks of what is natural for the character. The result is just confusing.

[Doctor.]

Except Gohan isn't an inconsistent character at all, but I'm not getting into that, that's been done to death.

Of course changing a character suddenly will make him inconsistent. That wasn't the point, I didn't say it wouldn't make a character inconsistent, I said that saying "x character isn't suited to x role" is nonsensical because the writer can write a character that way if he chooses to, be it inconsistently or not. Of course the execution is also something to consider.

[rereboy]

Except Gohan isn't an inconsistent character at all, but I'm not getting into that, that's been done to death.

Of course changing a character suddenly will make him inconsistent. That wasn't the point, I didn't say it wouldn't make a character inconsistent, I said that saying "x character isn't suited to x role" is nonsensical because the writer can write a character that way if he chooses to, be it inconsistently or not. Of course the execution is also something to consider.

If the author or someone argues that certain character "isn't suited for a certain role", meaning that they don't agree with the sudden change or unnatural development of said character just so that said character fulfills that role (which is why they prefer to not give the role to said character), that's a very good argument, and very far from being nonsensical.

You are basically arguing that it's not an argument because he could just write the character inconsistently, like that wasn't a problem...

[Doctor.]

You are basically arguing that it's not an argument because he could just write the character inconsistently, like that wasn't a problem...

Except, like I already said, it wouldn't be inconsistent at all. What was inconsistent was Gohan suddenly not being the main hero in the Boo arc when he was developed to be as such from the beginning.

One thing is to say "I don't like x character in this role", the other thing is to say "I don't think x character could fit in this role". Any character can fit in any role. One wouldn't say Piccolo would fit in as a good guy back in the 23rd TB, but look at what happened.

[rereboy]

Except, like I already said, it wouldn't be inconsistent at all.

First, I wasn't talking about a specific case at all, I was talking about the actual notion of doing that.

Second, it wouldn't be inconsistent in your opinion. The author or someone else may disagree completely with you, and even if you don't agree with their judgment in a specific case, the argument is far from being nonsensical. You not agreeing with their opinion in a specific case doesn't make the argument nonsensical at all, you just wouldn't agree that the argument is applicable to the specific situation.

Third, you clearly stated that it wouldn't matter if it was inconsistent when you said this: "I said that saying "x character isn't suited to x role" is nonsensical because the writer can write a character that way if he chooses to, be it inconsistently or not".

[ABED]

I say he's not suited for the main role for two big reasons, one of which being, this late in the game, I don't think it's ever a good idea to make someone else the main character. Goku was the main character for so long, that to make it someone else's story is a mistake. That's purely an emotional response but one based on watching/reading a lot of stories. Second, stories reflect the main character, and the tone of DB fits Goku like a glove. Gohan is much more earnest.

[Doctor.]

Second, it wouldn't be inconsistent in your opinion.

No, don't do this. Of course it's in my opinion. Stating "in my opinion" in every post should not be necessary in order to try to make a point.

Third, you clearly stated that it wouldn't matter if it was inconsistent when you said this: "I said that saying "x character isn't suited to x role" is nonsensical because the writer can write a character that way if he chooses to, be it inconsistently or not".

Because it doesn't matter. You're arguing about the execution, I'm not, I'm arguing about the concept. Let's say Toriyama decides to turn Goku evil in the U6 arc. From out of nowhere, with no reason whatsoever, he just turns evil from one episode to the next. Obviously, the execution of this particular idea would be bad, it'd make his character inconsistent. But this doesn't mean that Goku couldn't fit the role of an evil character in theory.

I say he's not suited for the main role for two big reasons, one of which being, this late in the game, I don't think it's ever a good idea to make someone else the main character. Goku was the main character for so long, that to make it someone else's story is a mistake. That's purely an emotional response but one based on watching/reading a lot of stories. Second, stories reflect the main character, and the tone of DB fits Goku like a glove. Gohan is much more earnest.

Do you always assume that "x character becoming the new main character" immediately means that Goku will never appear again? There can be more than one main character, you know?

[fadeddreams5]

But it's from a similar place, though not quite as much due to insecurity. Goku and Vegeta fought without fusing because they wanted it to be a fair fight. Buu was stripped of the people he had absorbed, so Goku and Vegeta felt it would be unfair to get the advantage fusion gave them.

But they still made the uninfluenced decision of breaking the earrings so it would be impossible to fuse later on. Goku later regrets this or seems to.

Regardless, it's not just the fusion I'm referring to. They opted for a spirit bomb over just wishing for Gohan and Gotenks. Hell, they always had one final wish, so they could have always used that too. Case in point, Kid Buu was never a threat. Not one bit. He didn't manipulate anyone to do anything; they just made the situation needlessly more difficult for themselves, but not for the sake of battle either. They wanted to kill Kid Buu, but seemed to develop brain farts at the last minute. The entire theme of the saga was letting the new generation take over as saviors, but this arc ruined that completely.

Neither was Cell until Vegeta made him one.

Cell was. We knew he was seeking perfection. They could have written his absorption of android 18 any way. But in the end of the day, they made it so he reached his goal by being cunning. This is what made Cell a threat in the first place, not so much his strength. Piccolo could have killed him if he was a mindless creature like Kid Buu, but Cell managed to get away, conceal his ki, and come back stronger. 16 got the better of him, so he hid, and snuck behind 17 when everyone dropped their guard. He was getting his ass whupped by Vegeta, so he used Vegeta's pride, which he's familiar with due to his own genes, to reach his goal.

What's your basis for calling it a majority? The only reason Gohan is "built up" as this savior is because he keeps getting his full power unlocked. It gets cheap after a while. It's not as compelling as watching a character push himself to his limit.

This is the most common argument in any DB forum or comment section ever: "Gohan should have been the one to beat Buu." It's everywhere. Literally anywhere you go on the internet related to DB. It's pretty much a fact that the Kid Buu arc was pulled out of their asses for the sake of making Goku the star at the last minute. It was a bad decision.

I do agree that it's less compelling watching someone go through some ritual than seeing a character push himself through training though. I just feel Gohan should have fought alongside his father in the final battle. After all that build up, and becoming the strongest non-fused character, he ended up not doing anything...

No, don't do this. Of course it's in my opinion. Stating "in my opinion" in every post should not be necessary in order to try to make a point, in my opinion.

Fix'd.

[ABED]

This is the most common argument in any DB forum or comment section ever:
You have no stats on this, and that's hardly a majority. The internet comment sections aren't a representative sample of the total audience.

They opted for a spirit bomb over just wishing for Gohan and Gotenks.
Because Vegeta wanted Earthlings to pull their weight.

Case in point, Kid Buu was never a threat.
It's not clear how strong he is. It's very vague. Is he stronger than the Super Buu that Gohan initially fought? There's no clear answer.

The entire theme of the saga was letting the new generation take over as saviors, but this arc ruined that completely.

That wasn't the theme. I think that's what became a pattern, but would you rather a character take over a role just so someone can force a theme, or would you rather the story's main character finish his story as well as Vegeta . I'd much rather see Vegeta finish his arc than have Gohan win because of some cheap power up. I'm glad Toriyama ruined it, it's a bad idea. Gotenks is too silly and young, and Gohan isn't right for that spot. Plus there's no one way to tell a story, it can seem to be about one thing and you can turn around and realize it's about something else if the theme isn't working. Why force a theme if to do so, you screw up a story? It's not like Roshi let the new generation take over, Goku's generation took the spot, it wasn't given.

That is Cell being cunning, but it's also Vegeta being stupid. It's within character, but it's well within character for Goku and Vegeta to want to do something on their own, which is ultimately why Goku asks Enma-Daio to resurrect Buu. He wants to get better to defeat him on his own. Let's also not forget that there were numerous ways in which the cyborgs didn't need to be a threat to begin with. Goku and his friends had warning, but instead of looking for Dr. Gero, they trained and put the world in jeopardy in order to fight strong enemies. It's really not much different than the Kid Buu fight.

After all that build up, and becoming the strongest non-fused character, he ended up not doing anything

That's not buildup, that's continually giving a character power ups to maintain relevancy, the bad idea was to force the less compelling character into the main role.

Do you always assume that "x character becoming the new main character" immediately means that Goku will never appear again? There can be more than one main character, you know?

I know there can be, and Gohan was a main character, but THE character who the story revolves around should remain Goku. Gohan has a part to play, but not as its main character.

[fadeddreams5]

You have no stats on this, and that's hardly a majority. The internet comment sections aren't a representative sample of the total audience.

Well, pretty much every casual fan I know in real life thinks the same. Yeah, I don't have stats on this. I can't. But that very much seems like a general consensus based on what the direction of the Buu saga was. Likewise, Mad Max was praised as one of the best movies of the year, but there are many people out there, like yourself, who didn't like it. It's impossible to get a true general consensus of the worldwide audience. I'm just going by a common complaint I've seen in various communities, over and over, for 10+ years.

Because Vegeta wanted Earthlings to pull their weight.

And this was pulled out of his ass. He certainly wasn't thinking about it when he played rock-paper-scissors with Goku to fight Kid Buu. It was a bad decision, and just bad writing. The execution, however, was great.

It's not clear how strong he is. It's very vague. Is he stronger than the Super Buu that Gohan initially fought? There's no clear answer.

Goku states he is no match for Super Buu, but clearly stands a chance against Kid Buu. He also implies Gotenks is stronger than himself, who in turn is much weaker than Gohan. Goku is also confident Gohan could take down Buucolo, who should logically be much stronger than Kid Buu, given that he has three people absorbed.

That is Cell being cunning, but it's also Vegeta being stupid. It's within character, but it's well within character for Goku and Vegeta to want to do something on their own, which is ultimately why Goku asks Enma-Daio to resurrect Buu. He wants to get better to defeat him on his own. Let's also not forget that there were numerous ways in which the cyborgs didn't need to be a threat to begin with. Goku and his friends had warning, but instead of looking for Dr. Gero, they trained and put the world in jeopardy in order to fight strong enemies. It's really not much different than the Kid Buu fight.

The Gero thing I agree was as stupid as the Kid Buu thing. That entire saga could have been prevented if they just stopped him sooner. Likewise, so could the Buu saga if Vegeta didn't allow himself to be possessed, Vegeta didn't knock Goku out cold, Goku beat Fat Buu as a SSJ3, Gotenks didn't mess around, and Vegito didn't mess around. The Kid Buu arc bothers me the most though because everything was laid out for them to win. The whole arc just tried to pad the situation in an effort to give Goku the spotlight and make it seem like there was actual danger, which just makes me roll my eyes. That said, it was also exciting and had a much better tone than the rest of the saga, which is why it's my favorite. Go figure.

That's not buildup, that's continually giving a character power ups to maintain relevancy, the bad idea was to force the less compelling character into the main role.

He was only less compelling because the writing made him so in the saga. As it stood, he was the main hero for the majority of the saga. If he was developed better, this wouldn't be a problem, and I wouldn't miss Goku in the lead as long as he's still a major character (which he was in the Buu saga).

[ABED]

He certainly wasn't thinking about it when he played rock-paper-scissors with Goku to fight Kid Buu. It was a bad decision, and just bad writing. The execution, however, was great.

A character improvising doesn't make it bad writing. Execution is what matters. You can have an idea that some people think sounds great, but if the execution is terrible, why does it matter? Many fans seem to fawn over this idea of the next generation, but how great is it if the execution is bad?

but clearly stands a chance against Kid Buu.

Not from what we see. Goku does no lasting damage. It turns out he was wrong on that account.

Goku is also confident Gohan could take down Buucolo

Goku's confidence isn't a guarentee against an enemy he hasn't faced before.

The Gero thing I agree was as stupid as the Kid Buu thing. That entire saga could have been prevented if they just stopped him sooner. Likewise, so could the Buu saga if Vegeta didn't allow himself to be possessed, Vegeta didn't knock Goku out cold, Goku beat Fat Buu as a SSJ3, Gotenks didn't mess around, and Vegito didn't mess around. The Kid Buu arc bothers me the most though because everything was laid out for them to win. The whole arc just tried to pad the situation in an effort to give Goku the spotlight and make it seem like there was actual danger, which just makes me roll my eyes. That said, it was also exciting and had a much better tone than the rest of the saga, which is why it's my favorite. Go figure.

I am in agreement here, though I don't mind that Goku gets the spotlight back.

If he was developed better, this wouldn't be a problem

From an emotional perspective, I don't want Gohan as the lead. It doesn't sit well with me when the main character role is taken over by someone else in a long running series. I've never seen it work for the better.