Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Khin]

He also said most of the other stuff before Dragon Ball Super and they chose to ignore that as well. I see no reason why they'd ignore everything else and just decide "Hrm, Saiyan's getting stronger as they fight should stay!". If anything, the whole growth thing was just brought up because Hit made a big deal of it, I doubt it'll factor into anything again.

Like what ? You keep assuming that the growth thing is never gonna be brought up again even though it was implied in the Copy Arc and now here in the Trunks Arc. The Saiyan growth is not only the only one that came from Toriyama's interview that was brought up in Super, even Goku absorbing the God power and no longer needing the Red form came from Toriyama as well, so you can't say the growth thing is the only one that wasn't ignored. And as i said before, all of the stuff that was ignored wasn't brought up in-universe, which the Saiyan growth was.

I find it silly to ignore a statement by the main author especially if it was brought up and in-universe, both in Z and Super. Whether it makes sense to you or not, it still happened and it still exists.

See my previous reasoning for why I REALLY doubt this is anything more than a Toei line added in to try and explain a power related thing then promptly forgotten about. Keeping your aura in was another one they used to try and explain vast growth, a concept I actually really liked that disappeared too. The Saiyan growth ability has literally only ever factored in for Black thus far who's a weird, whatever the fuck implied to be using Goku's body through unnatural means. Literally no other character is ever made a big deal out of improving through raw combat like this. Even Hit's improvement is just him strengthening his technique instead of just powering all of his stats up.

We're going circles here. The aura thing was never brought up again whereas the special Saiyan ability came from Toriyama, was present in the Z era manga, and not only was implied again in the Copy Arc, but can be also be used as an explanation for Trunks' big gains in the Trunks Arc. Hit is not Saiyan, so it's obvious that his improvement is slightly different to the Saiyans, but his improvement is similar enough for Vegeta to compare.

I can ignore it if I've got solid ground to say "The writers are just going to say the hell with it at some point so why should I take it seriously?". If the manga made it a point to show this ability as the de facto means for why the Saiyan's get stronger I might feel more confident about trusting the validity of this since the manga is leaps and bounds better written and more consistent than the anime. But there's no indication that this is the case, if anything the manga goes out of its way to show Goku & Vegeta struggling with God power while the anime has them say they're tapped out at the start of the tournament then apparently considerably stronger 10 episodes later from fighting! What the hell?!

Why would the Super manga matter here ? Even if it won't be brought up in the Super manga, it doesn't mean it's not the case in the anime. Especially seeing how some differences between each other.

Try the damage was nothing. Dragon Ball fights work like this: if you're not stronger or on par with the other guy, he will fucking kill you even if there's a small difference in power. If anything, Black even being bothered by Trunks' attacks is the big issue here since he's an inferior fighter giving the other guy trouble.

Since when ? 50% Freeza (Who is 20x stronger than Base Goku) didn't kill Goku despite landing multiple hits on him, the Cell Juniors didn't instantly obliterate the Z-Fighters (Mainly the humans) even after Cell said to stop dicking around and kill them, Raditz didn't instantly one shot Goku and Piccolo and the two are actually traded blows with him for a bit, FPSS Goku traded blows with Cell despite being 1 step behind to him. I can give more examples.

Black being bothered by Trunks' attacks is simply because Trunks is strong enough to deal damage to Black, no issues here.

If Super setup its own set of rules that it kept consistently, I would be fine with stuff like this but it doesn't. The only thing that's consistent is that characters become as strong or as weak at any given moment as the plot/animators need them to be. There's nothing like the old Z thing of trying to create a clear hierarchy of strength or valid reasonings for power increases: shit just happens.

Even in Z, characters getting stronger out of nowhere and inconsistent gains between characters are present, it may not be comparable to Super, but it still happened. For example, Piccolo become over 10x to 100x stronger in just 6 days in the Freeza Arc, the humans received bigger gains in just about a year compared to Goku who trained there for 3 years, etc. Characters are always as strong as the plot demands them to be, just that most of them was explained while the others wasn't.

[ekrolo2]

Like what ? You keep assuming that the growth thing is never gonna be brought up again even though it was implied in the Copy Arc and now here in the Trunks Arc. The Saiyan growth is not only the only one that came from Toriyama's interview that was brought up in Super, even Goku absorbing the God power and no longer needing the Red form came from Toriyama as well, so you can't say the growth thing is the only one that wasn't ignored. And as i said before, all of the stuff that was ignored wasn't brought up in-universe, which the Saiyan growth was.

I find it silly to ignore a statement by the main author especially if it was brought up and was implied to exist in-universe, both in Z and Super. Whether it makes sense to you or not, it still happened and it still exists.

Goku being worth a sixth of Beerus' power was stated in-universe in the movie and that got ignored as did Goku not needing Red God for the manga version of Super. Implying Toriyama doesn't care about the minutia of his own rules anymore, he's barely even writing how the fights happen just to let the animators do what they want. The Saiyan growth thing might've been brought up in Z but it was never made a factor there. It literally NEVER happens in Z.

We're going circles here. The aura thing was never brought up again whereas the special Saiyan ability came from Toriyama, was present in the Z era manga, and not only was implied again in the Copy Arc, but can be also be used as an explanation for Trunks' big gains in the Trunks Arc. Hit is not Saiyan, so it's obvious that his improvement is slightly different to the Saiyans, but his improvement is similar enough for Vegeta to compare.

The aura thing was brought up multiple times over several episodes and put into practice before being thrown aside. None of the Saiyan's ever improve drastically (certainly not drastically enough to go from being worthless fodder for Black to taking him on in SSRose in the grand total of a few days). Not even Gohan who's the grand champion of massive, potential induced improvements. He actually worked for his strength gains, most of them anyway.

Since when ? 50% Freeza (Who is 20x stronger than Base Goku) didn't kill Goku despite landing multiple hits on him, the Cell Juniors didn't instantly obliterate the Z-Fighters (Mainly the humans) even after Cell said to stop dicking around and kill them, Raditz didn't instantly one shot Goku and Piccolo and the two are actually traded blows with him for a bit, FPSS Goku traded blows with Cell despite being 1 step behind to him. I can give more examples.

Black being bothered by Trunks' attacks is simply because Trunks is strong enough to deal damage to Black, no issues here.

All of those are examples of characters toying with their opponents. Freeza powers up to smash Goku then powers down by taunting him, telling him he's not even worth using half of his power to kill. Goku has to spend the rest of this stage of the battle using KKX10 just not to die instantly against this powered down Freeza.Same thing with the Cell Jrs, if they started fighting seriously against everyone, they'd pretty much kill everyone immediately. By the time Cell actually commands them to stop screwing around, Android 16 head gets crushed and Gohan snaps, getting everyone's attention and preventing the Jrs from killing everyone. Cell purposefully powers himself down to be on par with Goku so he can have a good fight if he fought Goku with even 10% as much strength, he'd kill him. Thanks to his regeneration and much bigger energy reserves, he can afford to take usually unnecessary hits because he knows Goku will burn himself out a lot sooner than Cell. Even after nearly killing Cell twice, Goku's odds of winning after a senzu boost would only increase slightly, proving my point.

So no, Black being damaged by Trunks isn't likely. The very next fight Black has is with someone on par with him and we saw how he looks when he's actually hurt. Him trading blows with Trunks is no different to him catching bullets or letting the humans momentarily think he's dead when they drop the city on him: he's toying with them all. Its all just tactics to demoralize the enemy by showing how worthless they are.

Even in Z, characters getting stronger out of nowhere and inconsistent gains between characters are present, it may not be comparable to Super, but it still happened. For example, Piccolo become over 10x to 100x stronger in just 6 days in the Freeza Arc, the humans received bigger gains in just about a year compared to Goku who trained there for 3 years, etc. Characters are always as strong as the plot demands them to be, just that most of them was explained while the others wasn't.

Piccolo's strength gain on Namek is total horse shit, same as Trunks'.I never said Z was perfect but it made sense most of the time power wise whereas the Super anime makes no sense all of the time. As for the humans, given the fact Piccolo was still around and could go nuts at any moment, it stands to reason Kami and Popo simply improved on their old methods of training to help give Goku & company an edge over Jr. There's also the fact Goku trained alone with Popo while the humans have one another to spar against. It helps they were all roughly similar in power to one another, allowing them to fight without holding back.

There lies the crux of my problem with Super, Z tried to explain things to varying degrees of success. Super does the same but it has no consistency with itself, sometimes characters are stronger and sometimes weaker based on nothing at all.

[Khin]

Goku being worth a sixth of Beerus' power was stated in-universe in the movie and that got ignored as did Goku not needing Red God for the manga version of Super. Implying Toriyama doesn't care about the minutia of his own rules anymore, he's barely even writing how the fights happen just to let the animators do what they want. The Saiyan growth thing might've been brought up in Z but it was never made a factor there. It literally NEVER happens in Z.

Goku being stated to be 6th of Beerus' power was only in the movies, it was never stated in the manga nor the anime so it's possible that got changed. And again, Goku no longer needing the Red form wasn't explained in-universe, so it's entirely possible that the idea was changed.

The Saiyan growth was literally stated in Z era, and happened to Vegeta, and possibly Nappa. Why why hell would you completely ignore a stuff that was actually mentioned in the manga ? Heck even if you say that it never happened in Z, it was still stated to exist there, was brought up in the next series, and was stated by the author.



To me that seems to be the most plausible explanation as to why Trunks got much stronger, because of his many encounters his Black, he was able to become much stronger. And Vegeta also said the stronger their opponent, the more power they gain, which explains why Trunks got so much stronger after fighting with a way stronger Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

The aura thing was brought up multiple times over several episodes and put into practice before being thrown aside. None of the Saiyan's ever improve drastically (certainly not drastically enough to go from being worthless fodder for Black to taking him on in SSRose in the grand total of a few days). Not even Gohan who's the grand champion of massive, potential induced improvements. He actually worked for his strength gains, most of them anyway.

What i meant that is that it wasn't brought in other cases, the aura thing was only brought up during Goku and Vegeta's training with Whis in RoF. The Saiyan growth however not only was first stated in the manga, it was also stated by Akira Toriyama himself, was stated in the Champa Arc, was implied in the Copy Arc and now in the Trunks Arc. See the big difference.

Saiyans will only improve drastically while fighting strong opponents, so the stronger the guy they fought, the stronger they become as well. This ability already exists even in Z era, but taken a backseat due to zenkais and whatnot and is only focused again here in Champa Arc and Trunks Arc. Goku and Vegeta got significantly stronger than they werein the tournament because of their fight with Hit. Black starts out to be way stronger than Trunks that the latter got one shotted in a single kick, but their multiple encounter caused Trunks to drastically improve to the point where he can put up a good fight against Black. Trunks fought a way stronger SSB Vegeta thus he become stronger than before and is now strong enough to toe to toe with Future Zamasu.

All of those are examples of characters toying with their opponents. Freeza powers up to smash Goku then powers down by taunting him, telling him he's not even worth using half of his power to kill. Goku has to spend the rest of this stage of the battle using KKX10 just not to die instantly against this powered down Freeza.Same thing with the Cell Jrs, if they started fighting seriously against everyone, they'd pretty much kill everyone immediately. By the time Cell actually commands them to stop screwing around, Android 16 head gets crushed and Gohan snaps, getting everyone's attention and preventing the Jrs from killing everyone. Cell purposefully powers himself down to be on par with Goku so he can have a good fight if he fought Goku with even 10% as much strength, he'd kill him. Thanks to his regeneration and much bigger energy reserves, he can afford to take usually unnecessary hits because he knows Goku will burn himself out a lot sooner than Cell. Even after nearly killing Cell twice, Goku's odds of winning after a senzu boost would only increase slightly, proving my point.

How does that prove your point ? Cell said Goku's chance of winning will raise up a bit because Cell himself was still holding back his power, and no Cell and Goku aren't equal when they fought. Vegeta said that Cell is a step or two ahead of Goku (Even before they knew Cell was holding back). Raditz wasn't toying with Goku and Piccolo either.

You basically said that even if a character is just slightly weaker than the other, he will get killed immediately, which contradicts what was shown throughout the series. I can give you more examples. Ultimate Gohan took an almost 30 minute beating from a stronger Gotenks-Boo and even survived a SKG, a weaker Super Saiyan Blue Goku lasted long enough against a stronger Golden Freeza for the latter to lose stamina, Vegeta took a beating from Kaio-ken x3 Goku and even survived a x4 Kamehameha, etc.

So no, Black being damaged by Trunks isn't likely. The very next fight Black has is with someone on par with him and we saw how he looks when he's actually hurt. Him trading blows with Trunks is no different to him catching bullets or letting the humans momentarily think he's dead when they drop the city on him: he's toying with them all. Its all just tactics to demoralize the enemy by showing how worthless they are.

It's likely if the gap between Trunks and Black isn't that very large. Black got hurt by Goku not only because he received heavy blows while being caught off-guard, but they are also equals. Whereas against Trunks, Black didn't take that much damage because Trunks is significantly weaker than him and he only landed a single heavy-blow. Black smiling when taking damage is just a typical thing for him, he even smiles while clearly taking damage against a guy equal to him, so i see no reason why he won't smile or laugh while taking little damage against a guy considerably weaker than him.

Piccolo's strength gain on Namek is total horse shit, same as Trunks'.I never said Z was perfect but it made sense most of the time power wise whereas the Super anime makes no sense all of the time. As for the humans, given the fact Piccolo was still around and could go nuts at any moment, it stands to reason Kami and Popo simply improved on their old methods of training to help give Goku & company an edge over Jr. There's also the fact Goku trained alone with Popo while the humans have one another to spar against. It helps they were all roughly similar in power to one another, allowing them to fight without holding back.

There lies the crux of my problem with Super, Z tried to explain things to varying degrees of success. Super does the same but it has no consistency with itself, sometimes characters are stronger and sometimes weaker based on nothing at all.

My point about the humans is that the gains they received is so big compared to Goku that it would make you think why Popo and Kami didn't think of training them for Piccolo as well. From what i have seen so far, the only thing Super is missing is the explanations, but even a fan like myself can make the power scaling plausible with just a few nonsensical things remaining. It's just different when the series actually explains things compared to when the fans themselves is the one who comes up with explanations.

[ekrolo2]

Goku being stated to be 6th of Beerus' power was only in the movies, it was never stated in the manga nor the anime so it's possible that got changed. And again, Goku no longer needing the Red form wasn't explained in-universe, so it's entirely possible that the idea was changed.

The Saiyan growth was literally stated in Z era, and happened to Vegeta, and possibly Nappa. Why why hell would you completely ignore a stuff that was actually mentioned in the manga ? Heck even if you say that it never happened in Z, it was still stated to exist there, was brought up in the next series, and was stated by the author.



To me that seems to be the most plausible explanation as to why Trunks got much stronger, because of his many encounters his Black, he was able to become much stronger. And Vegeta also said the stronger their opponent, the more power they gain, which explains why Trunks got so much stronger after fighting with a way stronger Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

It was a post movie interview detail like the stuff about Saiyan's improving through battle and not needing SS2 or 3 anymore that got ignored by Super. Literally the only thing they've kept from these various interviews and statement is Goku absorbing God Ki into himself and even that changes at the drop of the hat. We wouldn't have a two base form theory if that wasn't the case.

It was stated in the series but nothing came of it. Literally it never fucking happens. Toriyama could've written that Super Saiyan makes you grow an extra pair of legs but it mgiht as well not exist if it never actually happens in the show. Toriyama literally fucking never uses this as a means to explain how people become stronger. Its always through training or in the case of the Namek arc, Zenkai. That's why I don't take this seriously, its like the thing about Tien being an alien, its a pointless factoid that never matters in the actual story. Plus, Vegeta's a self grandizing douche bag so I take ANYTHING he says about the mighty (worthless) Saiyan races power with a massive grain of salt, especially on Namek when he's having constant delusions of grandeur.

What i meant that is that it wasn't brought in other cases, the aura thing was only brought up during Goku and Vegeta's training with Whis in RoF. The Saiyan growth however not only was first stated in the manga, it was also stated by Akira Toriyama himself, was stated in the Champa Arc, was implied in the Copy Arc and now in the Trunks Arc. See the big difference.

Saiyans will only improve drastically while fighting strong opponents, so the stronger the guy they fought, the stronger they become as well. This ability already exists even in Z era, but taken a backseat due to zenkais and whatnot and is only focused again here in Champa Arc and Trunks Arc. Goku and Vegeta got significantly stronger than they werein the tournament because of their fight with Hit. Black starts out to be way stronger than Trunks that the latter got one shotted in a single kick, but their multiple encounter caused Trunks to drastically improve to the point where he can put up a good fight against Black. Trunks fought a way stronger SSB Vegeta thus he become stronger than before and is now strong enough to toe to toe with Future Zamasu.

Super is the only time the Saiyan growh thing works like this. As I said before, it never happens in Z but this sequel to Z is operating under different rules all of a sudden with no discernable reason. I've already said why I think above why this method of growth is a load of bull in and out of universe and given the fact the Super writers are some of the most incompetent cabal of morons I've yet seen, there's no way in hell they went back to the manga, read that Vegeta line then decided to make it the rule for Saiyan's thus far.

How does that prove your point ? Cell said Goku's chance of winning will raise up a bit because Cell himself was still holding back his power, and no Cell and Goku aren't equal when they fought. Vegeta said that Cell is a step or two ahead of Goku (Even before they knew Cell was holding back). Raditz wasn't toying with Goku and Piccolo either.

You basically said that even if a character is just slightly weaker than the other, he will get killed immediately, which contradicts what was shown throughout the series. I can give you more examples. Ultimate Gohan took an almost 30 minute beating from a stronger Gotenks-Boo and even survived a SKG, a weaker Super Saiyan Blue Goku lasted long enough against a stronger Golden Freeza for the latter to lose stamina, Vegeta took a beating from Kaio-ken x3 Goku and even survived a x4 Kamehameha, etc.

You don't get the concept of villains toying with their enemies, do you? Its a staple of all of these guys to toy with their enemies because they're a bunch of sadistic morons who get off on it. Nappa could've murdered everyone in the span of five minutes on Earth but he doesn't because he wants to toy with them. Same thing with Vegeta fighting against Goku, and any number of other instances. Same thing with the ones you mentioned? Why doesn't Cell instantly murder Goku? Because he's holding back for a good fight. Why isn't Super Boo killing Gohan? Because he wants to humiliate him for the beating he dealt to him, why doesn't Freeza kill Goku? Because he wants to beat him up, hell, he even gives Vegeta a chance to kill Goku and stomps on Goku's wound for extra misery.

It's likely if the gap between Trunks and Black isn't that very large. Black got hurt by Goku not only because he received heavy blows while being caught off-guard, but they are also equals. Whereas against Trunks, Black didn't take that much damage because Trunks is significantly weaker than him and he only landed a single heavy-blow. Black smiling when taking damage is just a typical thing for him, he even smiles while clearly taking damage against a guy equal to him, so i see no reason why he won't smile or laugh while taking little damage against a guy considerably weaker than him.

As I've already said a few times: we've seen Black get damaged and Trunks doesn't do anything to him. Black is also shown to be yet another villain who likes to toy with his enemies just for the sake of it, as I mentioned above with the bullets and the city crashing.

My point about the humans is that the gains they received is so big compared to Goku that it would make you think why Popo and Kami didn't think of training them for Piccolo as well. From what i have seen so far, the only thing Super is missing is the explanations, but even a fan like myself can make the power scaling plausible with just a few nonsensical things remaining. It's just different when the series actually explains things compared to when the fans themselves is the one who comes up with explanations.

I already said why the humans improvements aren't that big of an issue. Kami and Popo trained Goku for a while, likely saw where they could improve and applied that to the humans to prepare for the Saiyan attack. And I'm not opposed to fans making theories for things, I just did that with the human improvement. But I'm off the opinion that a theory needs to have roots in plausible examples backed up by facts. The Saiyan growth thing along with nearly everything from the Super anime doesn't for me. Hence why the two of us keeping this going will just have us go in more circles of you think the Saiyan growth thing works and I don't.

As far as I'm concerned, the only versions of the new material that can actually warrant a halfway good discussion power wise are the movies and the Super manga, the anime is good just as a punching bag for me now.

[SaiyanGod117]

I think we should just wait till the next episode so we can get some information that might clear this up.

[Khin]

It was a post movie interview detail like the stuff about Saiyan's improving through battle and not needing SS2 or 3 anymore that got ignored by Super. Literally the only thing they've kept from these various interviews and statement is Goku absorbing God Ki into himself and even that changes at the drop of the hat. We wouldn't have a two base form theory if that wasn't the case.

The Saiyan growth wasn't even ignored in Super. It was actually mentioned by Vegeta in the tournament and was even implied in the Copy and Trunks Arc.

It was stated by the author and was even brought up in the next series. It's just silly to ignore it and act like it doesn't exist when not only was stated in-universe twice, but was also implied in the past arcs and was stated by the author himself.

Goku absorbing the God ki is the only one that got kept ? What about the Saiyan growth that was literally brought up here ? Or some other statement that can still work in the anime.

It was stated in the series but nothing came of it. Literally it never fucking happens. Toriyama could've written that Super Saiyan makes you grow an extra pair of legs but it mgiht as well not exist if it never actually happens in the show. Toriyama literally fucking never uses this as a means to explain how people become stronger. Its always through training or in the case of the Namek arc, Zenkai. That's why I don't take this seriously, its like the thing about Tien being an alien, its a pointless factoid that never matters in the actual story. Plus, Vegeta's a self grandizing douche bag so I take ANYTHING he says about the mighty (worthless) Saiyan races power with a massive grain of salt, especially on Namek when he's having constant delusions of grandeur.

You keep saying it never happened, yet i mentioned multiple times how it happened here in Super and you ignored it. And can you please provide a clear reasoning why the Saiyan growth never happened in Z era ? From what i have seen, it seems like this happened to Nappa, it is also entirely possible that this happened in Z, just that most of the time, characters are so strong compared to the other that they still can't beat them even if they improved (Like the Black-Trunks case). You could even argue that the reason why Goku was so confident that he can beat Pure Boo if he can come back to his full strength was because he became strong enough to be able to vaporize him with his full power. I find the Vegeta being douche as a silly excuse.

Super is the only time the Saiyan growh thing works like this. As I said before, it never happens in Z but this sequel to Z is operating under different rules all of a sudden with no discernable reason. I've already said why I think above why this method of growth is a load of bull in and out of universe and given the fact the Super writers are some of the most incompetent cabal of morons I've yet seen, there's no way in hell they went back to the manga, read that Vegeta line then decided to make it the rule for Saiyan's thus far.

See above. It's only bullshit if you think it is bullshit, i personally don't see any issue with it at all. It's even possible that Toriyama and Toei reused this concept here in the new materials.

You don't get the concept of villains toying with their enemies, do you? Its a staple of all of these guys to toy with their enemies because they're a bunch of sadistic morons who get off on it. Nappa could've murdered everyone in the span of five minutes on Earth but he doesn't because he wants to toy with them. Same thing with Vegeta fighting against Goku, and any number of other instances. Same thing with the ones you mentioned? Why doesn't Cell instantly murder Goku? Because he's holding back for a good fight. Why isn't Super Boo killing Gohan? Because he wants to humiliate him for the beating he dealt to him, why doesn't Freeza kill Goku? Because he wants to beat him up, hell, he even gives Vegeta a chance to kill Goku and stomps on Goku's wound for extra misery.

Since when did Kaio-ken x3 Goku toyed with Vegeta ? Seems that you left that out. Golden Freeza clearly wasn't toying with SSB Goku either, nor does Vegeta toyed with Ginyu-Goku, etc. You're basically saying that a guy will get instantly killed even if he's just slightly weaker, i contradicted that by posting examples like Kaio-ken x3 Goku and Golden Freeza, and you ignored that.

As I've already said a few times: we've seen Black get damaged and Trunks doesn't do anything to him. Black is also shown to be yet another villain who likes to toy with his enemies just for the sake of it, as I mentioned above with the bullets and the city crashing.

I think you're completely missing my point here, Black gets damaged by Trunks means that Trunks isn't that much weaker than Black, unless you're trying to say Black is just acting hurt because reasons ? We know for the fact Black has a trait of laughing and smiling while taking damage, which can be easily be the case against Trunks.

I already said why the humans improvements aren't that big of an issue. Kami and Popo trained Goku for a while, likely saw where they could improve and applied that to the humans to prepare for the Saiyan attack. And I'm not opposed to fans making theories for things, I just did that with the human improvement. But I'm off the opinion that a theory needs to have roots in plausible examples backed up by facts. The Saiyan growth thing along with nearly everything from the Super anime doesn't for me. Hence why the two of us keeping this going will just have us go in more circles of you think the Saiyan growth thing works and I don't.

As far as I'm concerned, the only versions of the new material that can actually warrant a halfway good discussion power wise are the movies and the Super manga, the anime is good just as a punching bag for me now.

I myself is aware about the confusing power scaling of Super. But that doesn't mean all of it is pure nonsense as some of it can be explained, that's what i'm doing with Trunks' gains, but if you're going to completely ignore a certain idea that was basically explained in the series and act like it never happened because you don't think it is (Even though it clearly did), then you're not going to get a good discussion.

I think i need to say my main point again. We know that Toriyama mentioned the Saiyan growth in one of his interviews and was brought up in episode 39, this is the most plausible explanation as to why Trunks got that much stronger in 10 years for now. His many encounter with Black made him way stronger than before. Vegeta said in Z that the stronger the guy you fought, the stronger you get. Black starts out as being way stronger than Trunks that he can basically one shot him, but we saw in their fight in episode 48 that Trunks can put up a fight against Black, implying that he improved. The Saiyan growth is also the most plausible explanation why Trunks in episode 57 put up a fight against Zamasu and SSR Black, cause his fight with Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, who is way stronger than him caused him to improve drastically. Whether you agree or not, this is the best explanation that can be offered, so we either agree to disagree here, or else this thread is just going to get more derailed with the same thing being said.

[ekrolo2]

It was stated by the author and was even brought up in the next series. It's just silly to ignore it and act like it doesn't exist when not only was stated in-universe twice, but was also implied in the past arcs and was stated by the author himself.

Goku absorbing the God ki is the only one that got kept ? What about the Saiyan growth that was literally brought up here ? Or some other statement that can still work in the anime.

I've already explained why I don't trust what the author states in relation to the new material, they pick and choose what they want to follow and then throw it away when it isn't convenient for them. Hence why I can't take any of it with anything but a massive grain of salt at best and utter dismisal at worst.

You keep saying it never happened, yet i mentioned multiple times how it happened here in Super and you ignored it. And can you please provide a clear reasoning why the Saiyan growth never happened in Z era ? From what i have seen, it seems like this happened to Nappa, it is also entirely possible that this happened in Z, just that most of the time, characters are so strong compared to the other that they still can't beat them even if they improved (Like the Black-Trunks case). You could even argue that the reason why Goku was so confident that he can beat Pure Boo if he can come back to his full strength was because he became strong enough to be able to vaporize him with his full power. I find the Vegeta being douche as a silly excuse.

I ignore Super because it makes no sense within its own continuity. Its a show that introduces concepts then throws them away immediately afterward, how can I use ANYTHING it says or does seriously? In fact, even IF the Saiyan growth thing is supposed to be "the thing" of this arc, I wouldn't be shocked if whatever the next arc has Vegeta or someone call someone else crazy for thinking Saiyan's can get stronger through just fighting.

Black is the sole consistent character who's entire power increases and its made an actual point out of within the context of the story. But I hesitate to use Black as an example because we barely know WHAT exactly he is and its implied he's doing something unnatural with Goku's (maybe?) future corpse or copy body or whatever it is. Implying his method of growing more powerful is something unique to him.

Since when did Kaio-ken x3 Goku toyed with Vegeta ? Seems that you left that out. Golden Freeza clearly wasn't toying with SSB Goku either, nor does Vegeta toyed with Ginyu-Goku, etc. You're basically saying that a guy will get instantly killed even if he's just slightly weaker, i contradicted that by posting examples like Kaio-ken x3 Goku and Golden Freeza, and you ignored that.

I addressed Freeza's way of dealing with Goku: he's screwing with him. He wants to beat Goku in pure combat then kill him. Given the fact Goku performs worse against Freeza than he does with Cell, that adds further credence do the fact he's highly outclassed.

As for Goku's KK, it takes his blast a long while to blast away Vegeta's and Goku was already pushing himself well past his limits by combining KKX3 with a Kamehameha. His blast only caused cosmetic damage to Vegeta implying Goku's X4 boost probably didn't even reach anything near its full strength. It was more of a way for Goku to break the beam struggle more than anything else.

I think you're completely missing my point here, Black gets damaged by Trunks means that Trunks isn't that much weaker than Black, unless you're trying to say Black is just acting hurt because reasons ? We know for the fact Black has a trait of laughing and smiling while taking damage, which can be easily be the case against Trunks.

Except we see the show emphasise when Black is actually hurt and when he's not. When he's hurt, he acts hurt, when he's just tanking hits it doesn't do anything visibly to his person. Example, when Trunks hit Black, it did nothing to him visibly, when Goku hit Black in the same spot, he kept clenching his chest well after the fight concluded.

I myself is aware about the confusing power scaling of Super. But that doesn't mean all of it is pure nonsense as some of it can be explained, that's what i'm doing with Trunks' gains, but if you're going to completely ignore a certain idea that was basically explained in the series and act like it never happened because you don't think it is (Even though it clearly did), then you're not going to get a good discussion.

I think i need to say my main point again. We know that Toriyama mentioned the Saiyan growth in one of his interviews and was brought up in episode 39, this is the most plausible explanation as to why Trunks got that much stronger in 10 years for now. His many encounter with Black made him way stronger than before. Vegeta said in Z that the stronger the guy you fought, the stronger you get. Black starts out as being way stronger than Trunks that he can basically one shot him, but we saw in their fight in episode 48 that Trunks can put up a fight against Black, implying that he improved. The Saiyan growth is also the most plausible explanation why Trunks in episode 57 put up a fight against Zamasu and SSR Black, cause his fight with Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, who is way stronger than him caused him to improve drastically. Whether you agree or not, this is the best explanation that can be offered, so we either agree to disagree here, or else this thread is just going to get more derailed with the same thing being said.

I'll say this for the Saiyan growth thing, I'll take it over a "two base theory" any day of the week. For a shame that used to be really simple with how powers worked, the fact we have a theory that divides base theories into multiple tiers alone shows how dumb the anime situation is.

I would find the growth theory a lot easier to swallow if the series emphasized it enough for anyone who wasn't Black but it doesn't, not really. It comes off as "we're suddenly a lot stronger!" rather than "We've fought a lot of strong guys so we're stronger!". Plus, the whole growth boasting from Z comes from the Namek arc where "improving through battle" meant "get my ass kicked and then heal from it!" rather than actual growth through combat.

I also don't think any of the writers remember these statements for it to seem like a plausible explanation. The only thing I could actually see happening on this subject is Toriyama and company completely forgetting how Zenkai worked before and bringing them back in a completely different way than they worked before lol. Considering the fact he forgot what Super Saiyan 2, a much bigger deal than Zenkai or the growth statements. I can see him completely misremembering how exactly these guys get stronger.

[Noah]

1.- Why do you think Golden Freeza is still stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta?

Why not? We aren't told that they have surpassed him, nor did we get any feat that place them above him.

As we aren't told how much Mirai Trunks improved after training a couple of days with Vegeta. What you said doesn't make any sense, you're telling us that Goku and Vegeta trained 3 years straight in the improved RoSaT and yet didn't surpassed Golden Freeza? Why they even train so?

To me that seems to be the most plausible explanation as to why Trunks got much stronger, because of his many encounters his Black, he was able to become much stronger. And Vegeta also said the stronger their opponent, the more power they gain, which explains why Trunks got so much stronger after fighting with a way stronger Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

So basically you're telling that Zenkai has back out of nowhere and It's a concept only for Trunks now? Oh, okay.

[Khin]

I've already explained why I don't trust what the author states in relation to the new material, they pick and choose what they want to follow and then throw it away when it isn't convenient for them. Hence why I can't take any of it with anything but a massive grain of salt at best and utter dismisal at worst.

The problem with this is that the statements in his interviews that was contradicted was never brought up in-universe. For example in Super, we don't know where SSG compares to Beerus, all we know is that Beerus didn't use his full power against him, so it's possible that Beerus' power was changed and the 6-10-15 statement no longer applies. Goku absorbing the god power in his base was also never suggested in the manga, so it's possible that was changed as well. The Saiyan growth however was actually brought up and was implied in-universe more than once, so one can assume that this statement still implies in the series.

I ignore Super because it makes no sense within its own continuity. Its a show that introduces concepts then throws them away immediately afterward, how can I use ANYTHING it says or does seriously? In fact, even IF the Saiyan growth thing is supposed to be "the thing" of this arc, I wouldn't be shocked if whatever the next arc has Vegeta or someone call someone else crazy for thinking Saiyan's can get stronger through just fighting.

Super introduces new concepts like Whis' RoSaT and some other things but we never saw or was implied to be used again. But the Saiyan growth is an old concept that was brought up in the Champa Arc and not only was implied in the Copy Arc, but was also implied in the Trunks Arc as well.

I addressed Freeza's way of dealing with Goku: he's screwing with him. He wants to beat Goku in pure combat then kill him. Given the fact Goku performs worse against Freeza than he does with Cell, that adds further credence do the fact he's highly outclassed.

As for Goku's KK, it takes his blast a long while to blast away Vegeta's and Goku was already pushing himself well past his limits by combining KKX3 with a Kamehameha. His blast only caused cosmetic damage to Vegeta implying Goku's X4 boost probably didn't even reach anything near its full strength. It was more of a way for Goku to break the beam struggle more than anything else.

I'm talking about how Vegeta survived an onslaught from Kaio-ken x3 Goku, which if we go what you said will immediately kill Vegeta.

Except we see the show emphasise when Black is actually hurt and when he's not. When he's hurt, he acts hurt, when he's just tanking hits it doesn't do anything visibly to his person. Example, when Trunks hit Black, it did nothing to him visibly, when Goku hit Black in the same spot, he kept clenching his chest well after the fight concluded.

Am i really going to repeat the same thing again ? Black didn't receive much damage from Trunks' attack because Trunks is considerably weaker than him, thus the amount of damage that was deal isn't comparable to the amount of damage Goku dealt to Black, who is fighting at an equal level to Black. I think Black taking cover to Trunk' Masenko shows that Trunks was capable of dealing damage to him.

I'll say this for the Saiyan growth thing, I'll take it over a "two base theory" any day of the week. For a shame that used to be really simple with how powers worked, the fact we have a theory that divides base theories into multiple tiers alone shows how dumb the anime situation is.

I would find the growth theory a lot easier to swallow if the series emphasized it enough for anyone who wasn't Black but it doesn't, not really. It comes off as "we're suddenly a lot stronger!" rather than "We've fought a lot of strong guys so we're stronger!". Plus, the whole growth boasting from Z comes from the Namek arc where "improving through battle" meant "get my ass kicked and then heal from it!" rather than actual growth through combat.

But that's exactly what we were shown, it was stated that Black and Trunks fought many times, and i think the Saiyan growth is one of the possibilities why Trunks got much stronger in just 10 years rather than getting that strong through training alone.

Vegeta's statement about the Saiyan growth in Z is entirely different to zenkai. The Saiyan growth is getting stronger each time you fight a strong opponent whereas the zenkai is getting stronger after recovering from a near-death experience.

I also don't think any of the writers remember these statements for it to seem like a plausible explanation. The only thing I could actually see happening on this subject is Toriyama and company completely forgetting how Zenkai worked before and bringing them back in a completely different way than they worked before lol. Considering the fact he forgot what Super Saiyan 2, a much bigger deal than Zenkai or the growth statements. I can see him completely misremembering how exactly these guys get stronger.

But the Saiyan growth concept was already present in Z. If anything, i think Toriyama knows that the zenkais are gone, so he brought back the Saiyan growth ability as basically a replacement for it in his new stories.

So basically you're telling that Zenkai has back out of nowhere and It's a concept only for Trunks now? Oh, okay.

Huh ? If you read that line again and Toriyama's statement about the Saiyan growth, you know that's entirely different to Zenkai, see above.

[ekrolo2]

Huh ? If you read that line again and Toriyama's statement about the Saiyan growth, you know that's entirely different to Zenkai, see above.

Okay, lets wade through all the bullshit and settle this with one way: Trunks fighting the Androids over and over. He fights them for a lot longer than he fights Black, with greater frequency than he fights Black, they're considerably stronger than him so why the fuck doesn't his "Saiyan growth" eventually let him surpass them if its effective enough to get him from being worthless fodder to Black in his inferior base form to roughly on par with him in SSRose after a substantial power increase to Black's base strength?

[Khin]

Okay, lets wade through all the bullshit and settle this with one way: Trunks fighting the Androids over and over. He fights them for a lot longer than he fights Black, with greater frequency than he fights Black, they're considerably stronger than him so why the fuck doesn't his "Saiyan growth" eventually let him surpass them if its effective enough to get him from being worthless fodder to Black in his inferior base form to roughly on par with him in SSRose after a substantial power increase to Black's base strength?

Trunks only fought the Androids for about 8 months, he spent most of his time training after Gohan died and only faced the Androids once before going to the present timeline, then returned to the future, fought them for about 8 months, and returned to the present timeline again. Trunks fought Black for about a year as explained. Actually, that explains why Trunks went from someone being slightly stronger than Future Gohan to someone capable of at least fighting up fairly well against both Future Android #18 and #17 at the same time in just 8 months even though he probably didn't do much training because of his encounter with the Androids and the amount of time he needed for his wounds to recover.

It's possible that like Black, the gap between the Androids and Trunks is too big that Trunks wasn't able to surpass them, especially if Trunks fought the Androids shorter than he fought Black. But Trunks just become strong enough to fight up fairly well against the Androids like Black before going back to the present timeline again.

Trunks also needs to recover from his injuries for him to fight the Androids again, if he broke some of his bones or something, it will take a lot longer for his injuries to heal, and he only had 8 months to fight them.

[ekrolo2]

Okay, lets wade through all the bullshit and settle this with one way: Trunks fighting the Androids over and over. He fights them for a lot longer than he fights Black, with greater frequency than he fights Black, they're considerably stronger than him so why the fuck doesn't his "Saiyan growth" eventually let him surpass them if its effective enough to get him from being worthless fodder to Black in his inferior base form to roughly on par with him in SSRose after a substantial power increase to Black's base strength?

Trunks only fought the Androids for about 8 months, he spent most of his time training after Gohan died and only faced the Androids once before going to the present timeline, then returned to the future and fought them for about 8 months. Trunks fought Black for about a year as explained. Actually, that explains why Trunks went from someone being slightly stronger than Future Gohan to someone capable of at least fighting up fairly well against both Future Android #18 and #17 at the same time in just 8 months even though he probably didn't do much training because of his encounter with the Androids and the amount of time he needed for his wounds to recover.

It's possible that like Black, the gap between the Androids and Trunks is too big that Trunks wasn't able to surpass them, especially if Trunks fought the Androids shorter than he fought Black. But Trunks just become strong enough to fight up fairly well against the Androids like Black before going back to the present timeline again.

Trunks also needs to recover from his injuries for him to fight the Androids again, if he broke some of his bones or something, it will take a lot longer for his injuries to heal, and he only had 8 months o fight them.

So you're telling me that Trunks, after Gohan dies, never tries to fight the Androids and he, by himself, manages to go from being worthless shit against Base Gohan in his Super Saiyan form, to stronger than Mecha Freeza by himself with no gravity training or ROSAT or sparring partner. Just him punching and kicking at the air? Really?

It also fails to explain why he would only start to fight them during the 8 months instead of the many years he had. Surely if Trunks sensed an improvement from his encounters with the Androids, he'd try to fight them again. He's clearly reckless enough to fight Black constantly to become God tier so why wouldn't he be just as reckless when he's considerably younger and brasher?

The Saiyan Growth theory just isn't working for me with all of this in mind. Like I said before, its a fine theory (that the show will undoubtedly abandon in the near future like every other concept its introduced) but it doesn't work. Why does Trunks' battle with Vegeta give him better growth in the span of a day rather than the multiple battles he's had against Black? Is it because Vegeta is THAT much stronger than him?

Fuck, with this kind of logic in place, Trunks doesn't need Goku or Vegeta. He might as well let them beat him up for a couple more days at which point he'll be able to murder a potara fusion of Beerus and Whis and save the future that way at the rate he's improving.

[Khin]

So you're telling me that Trunks, after Gohan dies, never tries to fight the Androids and he, by himself, manages to go from being worthless shit against Base Gohan in his Super Saiyan form, to stronger than Mecha Freeza by himself with no gravity training or ROSAT or sparring partner. Just him punching and kicking at the air? Really?

It also fails to explain why he would only start to fight them during the 8 months instead of the many years he had. Surely if Trunks sensed an improvement from his encounters with the Androids, he'd try to fight them again. He's clearly reckless enough to fight Black constantly to become God tier so why wouldn't he be just as reckless when he's considerably younger and brasher?

He tried to fight Androids only after he realized he become stronger than Gohan was back then, and after he got beaten up he got sent to the hospital and then went to the present after he recovered. Future Gohan believes that Trunks can surpass him in just a few months, seems to me that Trunks got a ridiculous training gain at that time.

Trunks only surpassed Gohan just shortly before he before he went to the present, it will make 0 sense if he will try to fight the Androids knowing that he is still weaker than Gohan who got killed by them. And like i said before, he needed to recover his injuries before fighting them again. Surely if he noticed his improvements that might explain why he kept fighting them knowing he is still inferior to them (Like with Black).

The Saiyan Growth theory just isn't working for me with all of this in mind. Like I said before, its a fine theory (that the show will undoubtedly abandon in the near future like every other concept its introduced) but it doesn't work. Why does Trunks' battle with Vegeta give him better growth in the span of a day rather than the multiple battles he's had against Black? Is it because Vegeta is THAT much stronger than him?

It was established that Black is more or less on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku, and Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta is way stronger than both of them. Vegeta stated in Z that the stronger the guy they fight, the stronger they become.

Fuck, with this kind of logic in place, Trunks doesn't need Goku or Vegeta. He might as well let them beat him up for a couple more days at which point he'll be able to murder a potara fusion of Beerus and Whis and save the future that way at the rate he's improving.

You can basically said the same thing about zenkai with this, why didn't Vegeta just get himself beaten up from near-death then recover until he will surpass Freeza ? Because reasons.

[BWri]

this thread needs to be closed. There is nothing that anyone can justify now.

The mental gymnastics required to keep the anime on the level is through the roof now. You really have to turn your brain off to watch the show now and when I did that, I loved the latest episode, but trying to make sense of these power increases in-universe in just not very viable anymore (anime-wise anyway.) Though if you stretch it the shows logic to its absolute limits, you can write this off as a Namek saga-esque zenkai boost, problem is you'd have to ask where the prominence of Zenkai boosts of this magnitude went after Goku defeated Frieza (and when Cell used it that one time). If they explain it as such and in great detail, then I suppose I'd be okay with it, but it'd take the show down a few notches for me.

[SansrivaaL]

Honestly Super's manga is our only hope now, Toyo will surely make reason of this.

[Chiki]

Trunks's power increase to fight against SSR Black makes no sense for multiple reasons:

1. Black's power increase speed has been established to be faster than the Saiyans. His power increases every time he gets beaten up and has been increasing since he first met Trunks, got beaten up by SS2 Goku and SSB Vegeta, at a rate much much faster than Trunks.
2. Trunks has never been a prodigy like Kid Trunks, Goten and Gohan in terms of power increases (he was around equal to Vegeta when they came out of the Time Chamber together, unlike Gohan who had a much bigger gap between him and Goku and he even surpassed Goku as a FPSSJ).
3. Trunks did not get a Zenkai boost from Vegeta beating him up. Zenkai boosts only happen in near death situations. Vegeta barely even beat him up.
4. Trunks did not really train while in the present. He just did some image training and got beaten up by Vegeta.
5. The power gap between him and Black was massive in ep 47. Since then, Black got a power boost from fighting Goku in the present and he transformed into SSR which should also be a huge power boost. Trunks has no new transformations and he hasn't really trained.

ough if you stretch it the shows logic to its absolute limits, you can write this off as a Namek saga-esque zenkai boost,

That doesn't work either since Vegeta did not beat him up badly. Zenkai boosts only work in near-death situations which Trunks was not.

[ZombieVito]

Trunks's power increase to fight against SSR Black makes no sense for multiple reasons:

1. Black's power increase speed has been established to be faster than the Saiyans. His power increases every time he gets beaten up and has been increasing since he first met Trunks, got beaten up by SS2 Goku and SSB Vegeta, at a rate much much faster than Trunks.
2. Trunks has never been a prodigy like Kid Trunks, Goten and Gohan in terms of power increases (he was around equal to Vegeta when they came out of the Time Chamber together, unlike Gohan who had a much bigger gap between him and Goku and he even surpassed Goku as a FPSSJ).
3. Trunks did not get a Zenkai boost from Vegeta beating him up. Zenkai boosts only happen in near death situations. Vegeta barely even beat him up.
4. Trunks did not really train while in the present. He just did some image training and got beaten up by Vegeta.
5. The power gap between him and Black was massive in ep 47. Since then, Black got a power boost from fighting Goku in the present and he transformed into SSR which should also be a huge power boost. Trunks has no new transformations and he hasn't really trained.

1.- Where was this stated?
2.- Trunks got over 50 times stronger (Alone mind you) in between Gohan's death and his journey to the past. That's more impressive than anything Goten or Kid Trunks did.
3.- No but that thing Toriyama said about Saiyans getting stronger by fighting strong opponents can apply.
4.- You know this how? AFAIK we don't know how many days Bulma took to repair Cell's time machine.
5.- Nope. Base Black was strong enough to hurt SSB Vegeta but his SSR form was not that much stronger than SSB Goku. It's not a big boost.

[Chiki]

1.- Where was this stated?
2.- Trunks got over 50 times stronger (Alone mind you) in between Gohan's death and his journey to the past. That's more impressive than anything Goten or Kid Trunks did.
3.- No but that thing Toriyama said about Saiyans getting stronger by fighting strong opponents can apply.
4.- You know this how? AFAIK we don't know how many days Bulma took to repair Cell's time machine.
5.- Nope. Base Black was strong enough to hurt SSB Vegeta but his SSR form was not that much stronger than SSB Goku. It's not a big boost.

1. It's obvious? Like Trunks said he keeps getting stronger as they fight, and he had a massive power boost when he fought Goku.
2. What are you talking about? So what if he became able to turn SS? Trunks didn't gain any new transformations after returning to the present.
3. And Black has been becoming stronger too?
4. There's no proof whatsoever that he did any kind of special training regardless. Where's your proof? It's never stated or mentioned.
5. SSB Vegeta was holding back, there's proof he was since he surprised SSR Black by blocking his punch.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I think you are mixing the anime and manga.
In the manga they still have SSG and its above everything except SSB. In the anime it's the opposite where SSG level is lower than current SSJ with the only thing about SSJ3 is SSB.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

If Goku uses Super Saiyan God, of course it's going to be above all of his other forms except for Super Saiyan Blue.

When Goku reverted from Super Saiyan God to a regular Super Saiyan, he didn't lose power. In that way, you could say that the current Super Saiyan Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku during his fight with Beerus.

Current Super Saiyan God Goku isn't weaker than current Super Saiyan Goku. That is his strongest form outside of Super Saiyan Blue.

Look I don't even know what you're talking about

IN THE ANIME there is NO current SSG!!!! period. It's gone, done, non existent anymore. It literally was never seen again since BoG arc.

IN THE MANGA the SSG form STILL exists and is stronger than all his other SSJ transformations except SSB.

Why is this so hard to understand???

The manga & anime don't possess completely different characters. They are just retelling the same same events with some differences. Goku showed the ability to go Super Saiyan God in the manga, so he can still use it.

[TheMikado]

^ what is this?