ahill1 wrote:Yeah, you're probably right, but I like to think that read was for Buff Roshi because Roshi was pretty much fodder at the 23rd Budokai. He was weaker than both 22nd Budokai's finalists by a decent margin (will get more into it soon), while a possible stronger Goku was defeated by old Piccolo Daimao using less than half of his power. Roshi at the beginning of Z (who wasn't stated to train or anything) being above less than half of Tenshinhan's Beginning of Z power (who was already most likely above young Piccolo Daimao by the 23rd Budokai) is just nonsense in my book, so I like to keep Kame-sen'nin as far as possible from the other warriors and explaining the pretty high 139 number by being his Buff form. I think it's even a viable explanation, seeing as Muten Roshi probably couldn't fool scouters.
You're right that he wasn't stated as training, that still doesn't mean he doesn't do it. In light of the recent RoF, I assume he continued doing it. His retirement wasn't so much as to stop fighting and training but to pass the torch to the new generation. Which happened in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.
It's just a case of monitoring his progress to stay decently behind Yamcha. Which the 139 to the 177 in the Raditz arc accomplishes.
That's how I envision the situation.
ahill1 wrote:I'd like to have Kuririn and Yamcha even above young Piccolo Daimao if it weren't for them both being amazed at weighted Goku's speed, which was stated to be = to his speed three years ago. Even so, I have them fairly close to young Piccolo Daimao/post Choshinsui Goku and I think a teamwork between Kuririn and Yamcha could take out one of them.
As for Tenshinhan, well, he has to be noticeable weaker than his official level given in the Beginning of Z, since I'd assume he didn't stop with his trains. I might admit his gap over Goku (from 3 years ago) and young Piccolo Daimao might be a bit too low (considering 23rd Budokai Goku said Ten was way faster than before), but there's simply not much space IMO.
Regarding Tenshinhan, that's the only problem I ever found while making power levels before Raditz. The only to rationalize is that for whatever reason, he had minimal gains during the three years. Taking into account the decent amount of head-scratchers in Dragon Ball this isn't that ludicrous. In my head-cannon, I have him feeling disappointed after being easily defeated by Goku at the 23rd TB, together with having a weak by comparison training partner.
ahill1 wrote:Are you referring to Piccolo Junior vs Shen/Kami? I disagree that he took damage from that fight, as it wasn't noted. He took a kiai from Kami and later was knocked in the ground, to which he went pretty much unscathed and a bit curious about his opponents' strength. We should assume both final contestants were at their peak during the fight IMO.
As for Kami preventing Piccolo from punching Goku, you have to remember that later Goku allowed to be punched, as he felt unfair about the situation. While Goku was visible tired, he noted Piccolo Junior's strength wasn't the same it used to be (in Viz he even said their punches aren't half they used to be). Right after this, Goku showed confidence that the match was his, saying he had seen through Piccolo's moves and even stated he had gotten a little stronger than his arch enemy:
Chapter: 189, P5.2, P6.1
Piccolo: “You think you can win? There’s no way you can…! I’ve…I’ve…leveled up so much that I’m now many times stronger than I was when I fought you 3 years ago…!”
Goku: “Well then, I’ve gotten just a little bit stronger than even that”
Later he withstood Piccolo's final gamble and would've decided the match if it weren't by being taken unguarded. The Beginning of Z numbers depict their differences just fine imo.
I'm referring to Piccolo vs Goku. To me Piccolo took much more damage in that fight.
While Goku allowed himself to be punched later the circumstances are different. The first time, Goku wouldn't be able to prepare for it, it was at the end of a combination. It was supposed to be a finishing blow had Kami not steeped in and Goku would have been defeated.
That Goku line is just the regular batter, "you're good well I'm even better!", type of line
With all this said, this is just my personal opinion. My argument is just that Piccolo had more raw power, he's technically still weaker because he lost. Goku is the better fighter, therefore stronger. Just not in actual power and that's what the power levels show.
This is just my particularity of why I choose to give Piccolo a higher number.
ahill1 wrote:Sure, Roshi wasn't going all-out, but the Full Tournament level Goku > Full power Roshi logic does seem convincing enough to have a considerable gap, given that Ten stated he never thought someone could challenge him this much or something like this, meaning his estimations of Roshi's full power wouldn't be stronger than Full Match level Goku. That's also pretty much backed up by Roshi's admission of inferiority to his pupil's Tournament level:
Roshi is definitely weaker than both Goku and Tenshinhan, it's just the gap that you used that I think it's too much. Tenshinhan line shouldn't include something that never happened, while he knows Master Roshi held back, he can't know by how much.
In my opinion Roshi was only marginally weaker than Tenshinhan.
Anyway these are all just opinions, we are both neither right or wrong. With one exception, that's is your theory about Buff Roshi. He isn't buff at that moment, that's a fact. If you look at the panel, he's normal not even trying. If Mr.Toriyama intention was to show him Buff, he would have him clown around and get buff.
Bullza wrote:Power levels and the original Dragon Ball just don't seem to work.
I've been reading through the original series and I've seen several comments like it but just take the one I just saw where Piccolo Jr says he's multiplied his power many times over since he last fought him 3 years ago.
If he's got a power level around 400 then King Piccolo should be lucky to be even 100 but apparently it's 260. His power wouldn't have even doubled by DBZ.
So it either doesn't fit at all or its the numeric system isn't linear.
Double the power =/= Double the power level number
We shouldn't really count those lines as mathematical in nature. It's the old "I'm much stronger than before!" that is repeated so many times. Even Cyborg Tao says the exact same thing in the same arc.
Of course then that bears the question, should we ignore everything pre-power levels? I believe we shouldn't. Overall looking at the type of power statements used by Mr.Toriyama, you'll find he repeats himself a lot.
Looking at the pattern, most of the statements are just for hype: "He's in a different dimension", "he's many times stronger", these lines share one thing; vagueness.
While others, which are the ones we should be forced to fit into our power levels lists, are the specific ones.
That's where the "half" lines enter. Their intention is to hype someone by giving us the scale of his power.
He uses this with Piccolo Daimao, scaling him as an insane threat compared with Goku. Had Piccolo just said he's many times stronger than Goku, the impact wouldn't be same.
Another example, Goku after leaving the RoSaT. He's goes to Karin and displays, again half of his power, which allows us to map the whole arc and see how much stronger Cell actually is. If Goku, which at half-power is already better than Vegeta and Trunks, can't win against Cell then everyone's doomed!
Just my two cents regarding the topic.
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