The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[FNF]

I think the problem here is the false assumption that there are set limits to what constitutes being able or unable to put up a fight. It's not nearly so precise a system, and there are always other factors besides the numbers.

Nappa at 4000 can survive against Goku at 8000 because he's insanely durable, tanking almost everything the other heroes had thrown at him. The only one of them who was even able to scratch him was Piccolo at 3500. There. No need to over-complicate that.

If by the time they reach Namek, Kuririn's at 1850 and Gohan's at 1200, then what's Zarbon likely to say when he sees them both on his scouter? "Two powers around 1500." There. No need to over-complicate that.

So are you still insisting that a fighter with a pl of 4,000 can fight evenly with a fighter with a pl of 8,000? Piccolo gave him scratches when he was at a pl of 4,000~ with a cheap shot. He is nothing compared to Nappa even at his lower level. He got one hit K.O'd with an elbow for Christ's sake.

Gohan>=Krillin in the image training and now Krillin>>Gohan on Namek? Does not compute. They were around 1,500 and that's the end of it.

[Fox666]

It makes far too many errors in terms of power levels to be taken as fact.

So does the manga. I think you are forgetting this is just a fictional work.

So why didn't Krillin's power level get corrected in the Kanzenban? It's because AT clearly didn't think he made a mistake in the manga. Remember Gohan>Krillin in the image training on the way to Namek so for Krillin to be 1,770 and Gohan to be >= 1,500 doesn't make any sense.

I didn't get your point. Kuririn is at 1,770 however Zarbon doesn't feel being so specific. I didn't understand what you meant with Kuririn and Gohan image training.

Nevertheless, is the playtime Kuririn and Gohan had enough to judge who is the strongest? When Gohan transformed in Oozaru on Earth, Vegeta mentioned that he would be able to take one or two of them if he was at full power. If you do the math, you will realize that Gohan, at least before going to Namek, would be nowhere close to 1,800.

Those numbers came straight from AT while there is no proof that the Daiz numbers came straight from AT. V-Jump is hardly credible either considering it has Vegeta in the 200,000's vs Freeza 1st fom yet in the manga he was shown to be roughly equal with him (530,000~) so you haven't proven anything.

Sorry, I meant the Weekly Jump, not the V-Jump. Since I mentioned it uses the same source of the Daizenshuu, it cannot possible be the V-Jump which is completely unprecedented.

I don't really see what would be the point of these publications wasting their time and money with some made-up battle power list. If it was just made-up by a random guy, of course raises a lot of questions: why the Weekly Jump and Daizenshuu use the exact same source, what's the credibility of it? Why that list doesn't included battle powers beyond the Freeza saga?

It really doesn't suit something made-up. Besides it seems they force the insertion of material without a context. For example what does Goku being at 910 means? That's a very unlike behavior for someone simply making-up stuff.

After Nappa powered up further against Goku, they actually had a relatively even fight;
(...)

So I guess fighters with a pl half of their opponent can fight evenly with them

Nappa doesn't have the ability to control his battle power. He also "powered-up" at the very beggining of the battle with Piccolo & co, and again before fighting Goku.

Nappa used that same charged-up aura technique that he used to cut Tenshinhan's arm and etc. However that doesn't change his battle power, and last for a very short time.

What came 1st the manga or the Daiz? The manga.

What was most likely not written by AT? The pls in the Daiz.

And which evidence you have to support your claim? Have you done research about the time of their publication, which staff members worked on them, etc?

Or you say that just because you don't like it?

So I guessed you missed the part where Piccolo was reduced to a state in a single elbow by the same Nappa who couldn't see Goku's movements at 5,000?;
(...)

Yeah Piccolo was totally at 3,500

That doesn't prove anything. You cannot prove the battle power of a character based on "observation".

Goku using the Kaio-ken had a battle power of over 16,000 and Vegeta managed to counter-attack. After that Vegeta started a massive power-up that frightened Goku. So how does Vegeta battle power was only 18,000? Vegeta is totally 26.400!! That is a fact of the manga!!!

See how I can question the battle powers in the manga? Toriyama never put much emphasis in battle power, it's a flaw system and you shouldn't take it so serious.

[Kaboom]

So are you still insisting that a fighter with a pl of 4,000 can fight evenly with a fighter with a pl of 8,000?

That's the thing, though. You see a so-called "even fight." I see Nappa trying his absolute hardest while Goku's barely even trying. It fits that way.

Piccolo gave him scratches when he was at a pl of 4,000~ with a cheap shot. He is nothing compared to Nappa even at his lower level. He got one hit K.O'd with an elbow for Christ's sake.

Because Nappa's simply built bigger and stronger than him. Not to mention that Piccolo wasn't expecting that blow to the head, as he was falsely assuming that the tail-grab had incapacitated Nappa.

Gohan>=Krillin in the image training and now Krillin>>Gohan on Namek? Does not compute. They were around 1,500 and that's the end of it.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Gohan is as strong or stronger than Kuririn at that point. Is this the line you're thinking of?

Chapter: 246 (DBZ 52), P2.6
Context: After completing their image training, Kuririn comments on Gohan’s strength.
Kuririn: “You’re good! You really are strong. After all, you’ve got Goku’s blood and were trained by Piccolo…”
Gohan: “But I was surprised at the number of moves you have!”

Kuririn just compliments Gohan on his power. He doesn't say he's stronger than himself.

[FNF]

So are you still insisting that a fighter with a pl of 4,000 can fight evenly with a fighter with a pl of 8,000?

That's the thing, though. You see a so-called "even fight." I see Nappa trying his absolute hardest while Goku's barely even trying. It fits that way.

Piccolo gave him scratches when he was at a pl of 4,000~ with a cheap shot. He is nothing compared to Nappa even at his lower level. He got one hit K.O'd with an elbow for Christ's sake.

Because Nappa's simply built bigger and stronger than him. Not to mention that Piccolo wasn't expecting that blow to the head, as he was falsely assuming that the tail-grab had incapacitated Nappa.

Gohan>=Krillin in the image training and now Krillin>>Gohan on Namek? Does not compute. They were around 1,500 and that's the end of it.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Gohan is as strong or stronger than Kuririn at that point. Is this the line you're thinking of?

Chapter: 246 (DBZ 52), P2.6
Context: After completing their image training, Kuririn comments on Gohan’s strength.
Kuririn: “You’re good! You really are strong. After all, you’ve got Goku’s blood and were trained by Piccolo…”
Gohan: “But I was surprised at the number of moves you have!”

Kuririn just compliments Gohan on his power. He doesn't say he's stronger than himself.

Look at Goku's facial expression in the Nappa vs Goku fight when Goku avoids his hit. Certainly doesn't look like he wasn't trying.


I guess Gohan is built like a tank to be able to take hits from Nappa


I swear did you not see Krillin's facial expression during the image training and after? He was straining himself to the very edge yet in contrast Gohan seemed fairly at ease.

[Kaboom]

We're dismissing official numbers because of facial expressions now?

[Fox666]

I think nobody shouldn underestimate the sources that the Daizenshuu uses for the information. They wouldn't waste money printing pointless information.

In an interview, Toriyama mentioned that Raditz battle power is actually greater than that of a Saibaiman (it should be noted that Nappa actually said that Raditz "rivalry" the Saibaiman in the japanese manga). And the Weekly Jump or Daizenshuu estabilished Raditz ahas a battle power of 1,500.

Another point is that Toriyama also mentioned in an interview in the SEG that the Super Saiyan multiply the battle power by 50 times, which also was provided in the Daizenshuu.

Of course we cannot forget that Vegeta battle power originally was 20,000 against Recoom in the manga, while the Daizenshuu provided 30,000 which the manga was later corrected to. Was this estabilished to be a typo after checking Toriyama's notes, memos, etc?

[FNF]

@Kaboom, you really don't get it?

If person A is gritting their teeth while blocking hits and person B is smiling while blocking hits, which one is straining their self more.

[Kaboom]

@Kaboom, you really don't get it?
If person A is gritting their teeth while blocking hits and person B is smiling while blocking hits, which one is straining their self more.

Of course I "get it."

It's just kind of a dumb and pointless thing to try passing off as actual evidence.

[Fox666]

"Facial expression" is subjective. It doesn't serve as definite evidence.

[CatouttaHell]

That's the thing, though. You see a so-called "even fight." I see Nappa trying his absolute hardest while Goku's barely even trying. It fits that way.

Nothing suggests Goku isn't trying as hard as Nappa.

Why would Vegeta and Nappa both think Nappa could win if he was only at 4,000?

Because Nappa's simply built bigger and stronger than him. Not to mention that Piccolo wasn't expecting that blow to the head, as he was falsely assuming that the tail-grab had incapacitated Nappa.

Where is it suggested that Nappa's size had anything to do with his dominance over Piccolo? Piccolo was a lot bigger than #17 and yet he wasn't bashing him around all over the place due to that.

Going by the guidebook numbers Nappa is only 1.14x stronger than Piccolo. How does it make any sense for Nappa to stomp Piccolo with that gap but fight almost evenly with Goku with a 2x gap?

[Kaboom]

Going by the guidebook numbers Nappa is only 1.14x stronger than Piccolo. How does it make any sense for Nappa to stomp Piccolo with that gap but fight almost evenly with Goku with a 2x gap?

I've already answered this quite plainly and simply. But evidently you are too accustomed to thinking in terms of, "numbers, numbers, numbers" to comprehend or accept that answer. Take the scouter off once in a while and these things might make more sense.

[Fox666]

Going by the guidebook numbers Nappa is only 1.14x stronger than Piccolo. How does it make any sense for Nappa to stomp Piccolo with that gap but fight almost evenly with Goku with a 2x gap?

Nappa never "stomped" Piccolo. In the manga there are only a very very few panels with Piccolo and Nappa fighting. Is there some anime filler scene of Nappa fighting Piccolo that I forget?

Piccolo fell unconscious when Nappa hit his head by surprise, but that's not much different of Goku loosing his consciousness after Vegeta attacked him in Buu saga. And Piccolo fired a Ki attack and hurt bad Nappa's back, while Nappa easily reflected a special technique from Gohan while his battle power was 2,800. So Piccolo being at 3,500 is not inconceivable.

Why would Vegeta and Nappa both think Nappa could win if he was only at 4,000?

Who cares?

Nappa was frightened after hearing of 5,000 to the point Piccolo was mocking him. And when Nappa tried to attack Goku, while his battle power was still suppressed at 5,000, he couldn't see Goku moving right in front of his eyes. Thus the battle power Toriyama's had in mind for Nappa was significantly below 5,000.

It doesn't matter what Vegeta say about Nappa chances of win or whatever else, that only means the plot is flawed or that Toriyama doesn't care much about battle powers or so.

[dbgtFO]

Why would Vegeta and Nappa both think Nappa could win if he was only at 4,000?

It doesn't matter what Vegeta say about Nappa chances of win or whatever else, that only means the plot is flawed or that Toriyama doesn't care much about battle powers or so.

Or they didn't trust the scouter reading. Nappa sure as hell didn't("Over 8000?! That's impossible, it's broken!").

[Fox666]

Well, even if Vegeta didn't screamed like that, he still smashed the Scouter. So I suppose it was still possible they didn't believed Goku had a battle power of 5,000-8,000.

[Nineteen]

For what it's worth, aside from one throw-away line, Goku seemed to dominate Nappa as easily as he did the Ginyu goons later on, and nobody thinks they were close to touching him.

[jjgp1112]

Yeah, numbers aren't the only thing that matters. I really don't understand this mentality that power gaps COMPLETELY determines the effectiveness of attacks. A powerful punch from someone slightly stronger than or equal to you will still hurt like hell. I mean, shit, by the logic some of you guys use, how do you explain any fight between two similarly matched people that ends in a knockout?

And like Fox666 pointed out, Goku and Vegeta were dead even in the Buu Saga, yet Vegeta was still able to knock him out. And to go further than that, Goku was able to blow the entire top half of Cell's body to pieces with his strongest attack, and the gap between them was likely smaller than the gap between Piccolo and Nappa. BUT OH NOEZ, THEIR NUMBERS ARE TOO CLOSE, THEY SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO BEAT SOMEBODY UP LIKE THAT.

[Olympian]

Krillin vs Tenshinhan;

I honestly don't think Krillin should be too far ahead of Yamcha and he didn't do that well against a Saibamen. His only move which affected the Saibamen was his Kamehameha.

The only move he actually used was a beam attack, that may be the Kamehameha. Until that point i think it was always shouted out. He didn`t use any other signature attack, the rest was just punches and kicks. Clearly, he never lash out everything he could on one Saibamen and he was confident he could take the rest alone. Ten and Piccolo doing better is a no brainer though, they have always been stronger than Yamucha.

Going by memory, doesn`t Nappa makes a reference to/about the Saibamen that is going to fight Yamucha?

[VegettoEX]

BUT OH NOEZ, THEIR NUMBERS ARE TOO CLOSE, THEY SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO BEAT SOMEBODY UP LIKE THAT.

You seem to have legitimate things to say and points to make, so please don't color them so negatively with asinine talk like this -- you know there are better ways to state things like this, and as-is this is not acceptable.

That goes for everyone, of course! Get yourselves taken seriously and show how amazing the community can be be speaking politely to your fellow fans. I'm constantly blown away by how comprehensive this group of fans from across the entire globe can be, so if you just keep it "super shonen" (friendly, well-spoken), you're on your way to awesomeness .

[jjgp1112]

Whoops, my bad. Pent-up frustration, I guess . It won't happen again

[Rocketman]

So are you still insisting that a fighter with a pl of 4,000 can fight evenly with a fighter with a pl of 8,000?

Goku at 416 was able to trade blows with Raditz at 1,500 for a short time.

So I guessed you missed the part where Piccolo was reduced to a state in a single elbow by the same Nappa who couldn't see Goku's movements at 5,000?

A single blow from 1,307 Gohan weakened Raditz so much Shattered Ribs Goku could hold him in place.