The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[RandomGuy96]

He probably one-shots Vegeta. Logically his android arc gains had to have started somewhere, and he got 8.5 times stronger in one year in the Saiyan Saga. Not seeing why he can't at least duplicate the same feat in 1 and 2/3 of a year here.

[TheGmGoken]

Piccolo and Vegeta have a similar battle to what Ginyu vs Goku was. Piccolo will have the higher power but Vegeta get some hits in as well. Wouuld have been a nice battle/

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Anime Goku(Z Boo Arc) vs Vegetto. Apparently Kid boo is the strongest Majin in the anime. Even above Boohan

Vegetto stomps. All the anime statements/feats are bullshit in the anime.

But Goku > Vegetto > Kid Boo >Vegetto > Boohan> Buutenks> Goku! > Super Boo > Goku(It's sad that's how bad power statements are in the anime)

Apparently the GT Perfect Files states that GT Gohan didnt neglect his training. So by that logic, GT Gohan is just as strong if not stronger than he was in DBZ. So is it too much to assume that GT Gohan could defeat Buutenks?

Maybe Ultimate Gohan from GT can have an even fight with Gotenks Boo, but in the end, Boo wins.

Toei Gohan(Who can't defeat anyone without Goku) vs Manga Raditz

Gohan stomps.

ASSJ Vegeta(PRe 2nd ROSAT) vs Kamicoollo(Post ROAST)

Piccolo wins. I think he is a little bit stronger, plus he has much more stamina.

[hleV]

I don't see any reason to disregard this statement. Even if Whis wasn't confirmed stronger we could have a movie villain even more powerful years later, and that wouldn't contradict the statements implication at the time and make me throw out what was stated. Whis being stronger and a the 12 universes being told was to show Goku that there are tons of people possibly beyond Goku and even Birus.

"In the history of Z" means "up until now in Z". And it's not necessarily the in-universe history, but rather "whatever we've seen in Z so far". Basically it doesn't touch any villains/forms that are gonna be created in the future, because they don't exist at the time the statement is made. It does touch Beerus and Whis, though, as they already belonged to "the history of Z" at that time. So if a statement says that Beerus is the strongest when Whis is standing right fucking next to him, it's obviously incorrect and is completely (not partially) disregarded. Oh and... not from Toriyama.

The other outside-movie thing that possibly gauges Vegetto's strength is a vague comparison between him and SS4 that comes from a GT-focused guidebook (the word "perhaps" is used, it doesn't specify neither Vegetto's form nor SS4 character nor by how much Vegetto is "perhaps" stronger). Even if it was of any value, we could argue to no end about how strong SS4 is. Lastly, I don't think Toriyama ever approved such a statement, considering he didn't invent SS4.

So it all comes down to what's said in the movie itself. I haven't watched it so I'm just going by the information I have, but I believe the only thing that's said is that Goku didn't know such a realm of power existed. And I don't see Goku referring to power, but rather the new and unique godly type of power.

Nothing exactly says that Vegetto is superior to SSG Goku/Beerus/Whis, but there's no reliable statement to the contrary neither. That's why I personally choose to still go with base Vegetto > everything ever. I don't see Beerus being millions of times stronger than Goku just for the lulz, but I can't prove that he's not.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

"In the history of Z" means "up until now in Z". And it's not necessarily the in-universe history, but rather "whatever we've seen in Z so far". Basically it doesn't touch any villains/forms that are gonna be created in the future, because they don't exist at the time the statement is made. It does touch Beerus and Whis, though, as they already belonged to "the history of Z" at that time. So if a statement says that Beerus is the strongest when Whis is standing right fucking next to him, it's obviously incorrect and is completely (not partially) disregarded. Oh and... not from Toriyama.

Well, technically, they didn't. The movie wasn't released when the statement was made, it was an upcoming product, with Beers & Whis as upcoming characters.

And as for Toriyama, even though he didn't make the statement, he has approved the whole project.

So it all comes down to what's said in the movie itself. I haven't watched it so I'm just going by the information I have, but I believe the only thing that's said is that Goku didn't know such a realm of power existed. And I don't see Goku referring to power, but rather the new and unique godly type of power.

But not only Goku knew about the existence of godly ki (Kaio told him about that in the beginning of the movie, and it's possible that he knows about it since the days he was training with Kami), but when Trunks talked about a "realm", he was talking about power.

Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P9.1-2
Trunks: “Father really did surpass the limits of Super Saiyan…He obtained absolutely incredible power, like he has in that form now…But one day, I even further surpassed that realm…! I realized that this was what Son Goku had been talking about…”

[hleV]

Well, technically, they didn't. The movie wasn't released when the statement was made, it was an upcoming product, with Beers & Whis as upcoming characters.

"Beerus is the strongest in the history of Z". Beerus IS in Z, otherwise the statement makes no sense. And we know Whis for as long as we know Beerus, so he's in Z as well.

But not only Goku knew about the existence of godly ki (Kaio told him about that in the beginning of the movie, and it's possible that he knows about it since the days he was training with Kami), but when Trunks talked about a "realm", he was talking about power.

He may have known the existence of godly ki, but that doesn't mean a thing until he feels it for himself. There are many instances in DB where power is referred to as realm. However, realm is not limited to only mean power, especially when we have normal and godly type of power in the context. It makes much, much more sense for Goku to be referring to the new godly power that he didn't imagine existing rather than the amount of that power. Goku's literally become millions of times stronger throughout his life, felt Vegetto, found out that Beerus is the strongest foe he's ever faced, and yet he didn't imagine that the amount of power that he gets as SSG existed? No thanks.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

"Beerus is the strongest in the history of Z". Beerus IS in Z, otherwise the statement makes no sense. And we know Whis for as long as we know Beerus, so he's in Z as well.

But it's not a contradiction. It's an omitted information. "Beers is the strongest in the history of Z, second to Whis". It's not like in filler when we are first told that dead people are immortal, then that they will get erased, and then again that they are immortal. THIS it a contradiction.

He may have known the existence of godly ki, but that doesn't mean a thing until he feels it for himself. There are many instances in DB where power is referred to as realm. However, realm is not limited to only mean power, especially when we have normal and godly type of power in the context. It makes much, much more sense for Goku to be referring to the new godly power that he didn't imagine existing rather than the amount of that power. Goku's literally become millions of times stronger throughout his life, felt Vegetto, found out that Beerus is the strongest foe he's ever faced, and yet he didn't imagine that the amount of power that he gets as SSG existed? No thanks.

Goku had gotten so strong, but also had realized that he had reached his limits at that point, meaning that he isn't going to become a hundred times stronger like in the past. He also knows Ultimate Gohan's power, which is power beyond his reach, and Gohan's limit as well. And he also felt Super Vegetto, who should also be at his limits, since both Goku & Vegeta were at their limits. So, going by realm=power, Goku's line means that SSG Goku >>> SS3 Vegetto.

And going by realm=godly ki doesn't make sense. Goku said that he never knew there was a realm like this, but he already knew there was godly ki since the beginning of the movie. If Goku had said something like "I never knew this realm felt like this" or something like that then maybe yes, but we also see Beers saying that Goku absorbed SSG's realm when he was a Super Saiyan & almost as strong as Super Saiyan God.

[hleV]

But it's not a contradiction. It's an omitted information. "Beers is the strongest in the history of Z, second to Whis".

You can't be serious. I honestly hope you're not. That's like saying that the farmer is the strongest in the universe, omitting the part after all the beings stronger than him, and expecting everyone to be fine with such statement.

Goku had gotten so strong, but also had realized that he had reached his limits at that point, meaning that he isn't going to become a hundred times stronger like in the past. He also knows Ultimate Gohan's power, which is power beyond his reach, and Gohan's limit as well. And he also felt Super Vegetto, who should also be at his limits, since both Goku & Vegeta were at their limits. So, going by realm=power, Goku's line means that SSG Goku >>> SS3 Vegetto.

Spoiler:

Goku's limits and inability to progress as quickly doesn't magically block his mind from knowing that there can be a much greater power. Even Boo, who appeared in late part of the series, had incredible power gains through absorptions, and Goku witnessed that. Also SS3, fusions, dormant power unlocks... If such things are possible, how can Goku, who progressed so much throughout his life himself, not imagine an existence of strength which is much greater?

And going by realm=godly ki doesn't make sense. Goku said that he never knew there was a realm like this, but he already knew there was godly ki since the beginning of the movie. If Goku had said something like "I never knew this realm felt like this" or something like that then maybe yes, but we also see Beers saying that Goku absorbed SSG's realm when he was a Super Saiyan & almost as strong as Super Saiyan God.

Again, knowing that godly ki exists means nothing until you feel it. Sure, the power is great as well, Goku probably wouldn't have commented it like this if he received an amount of godly ki which is less than his normal ki. But that comment had to be more because of unusual type of ki. When Vegetto formed, he couldn't even realize the full extents of his power (or at least at first)... How did Goku, if SSG power is even greater?

[Mjb1985]

Different realm of power means achieving power otherwise not thought to be attainable. I think Vegetto and Gokan probably can't hold a candle to Beers or else what's the point? If Fusion was all that was needed to win I would think it would be suggested.

[hleV]

Vegeta wouldn't have fused with Goku.
Metamorian Fusion wouldn't be enough.
There aren't any Potara earrings left.

[Mjb1985]

Most people think Gogeta and Vegetto aren't much different so you are solidifying my point.

[hleV]

Most people where? On YouTube? I don't go with what people think, I go with statements from the series, guidebooks, etc.

[Kamiccolo9]

Can you all move this discussion elsewhere, please?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You can't be serious. I honestly hope you're not.

Same here. Don't you see that the whole contradiction was intentional? We learn that Beers is the strongest character so far, and that Whis is a mysterious guy. Then, we learn that Whis is stronger than we thought, but we never learn that Beers is weaker than we thought.

Again, knowing that godly ki exists means nothing until you feel it.

Why? Where was that said?

Sure, the power is great as well, Goku probably wouldn't have commented it like this if he received an amount of godly ki which is less than his normal ki. But that comment had to be more because of unusual type of ki.

But again, Beers said later that Goku managed to absorb the realm of Super Saiyan God (when he reverted to base & turned Super Saiyan), and that Super Saiyan Goku was insignificantly weaker than Super Saiyan God.

When Vegetto formed, he couldn't even realize the full extents of his power (or at least at first)... How did Goku, if SSG power is even greater?

You mean how did Goku realized how strong he was when Vegetto needed some time? Goku didn't say that after he turned SSG, he said that after he fought for a while. Like Vegetto did.

Vegeta wouldn't have fused with Goku.

Well, in GT, Vegeta agreed when he saw that the situation is hopeless.

Metamorian Fusion wouldn't be enough.

Definitely.

There aren't any Potara earrings left.

Kaioshin is wearing them in a screenshot from the movie, so I assume that Rou Kaioshin is wearing them too.

Most people think Gogeta and Vegetto aren't much different so you are solidifying my point.

And I disagree based on the implications in the manga & guides.

[dbzfan7]

"In the history of Z" means "up until now in Z". And it's not necessarily the in-universe history, but rather "whatever we've seen in Z so far". Basically it doesn't touch any villains/forms that are gonna be created in the future, because they don't exist at the time the statement is made. It does touch Beerus and Whis, though, as they already belonged to "the history of Z" at that time. So if a statement says that Beerus is the strongest when Whis is standing right fucking next to him, it's obviously incorrect and is completely (not partially) disregarded. Oh and... not from Toriyama.

The other outside-movie thing that possibly gauges Vegetto's strength is a vague comparison between him and SS4 that comes from a GT-focused guidebook (the word "perhaps" is used, it doesn't specify neither Vegetto's form nor SS4 character nor by how much Vegetto is "perhaps" stronger). Even if it was of any value, we could argue to no end about how strong SS4 is. Lastly, I don't think Toriyama ever approved such a statement, considering he didn't invent SS4.

So it all comes down to what's said in the movie itself. I haven't watched it so I'm just going by the information I have, but I believe the only thing that's said is that Goku didn't know such a realm of power existed. And I don't see Goku referring to power, but rather the new and unique godly type of power.

Nothing exactly says that Vegetto is superior to SSG Goku/Beerus/Whis, but there's no reliable statement to the contrary neither. That's why I personally choose to still go with base Vegetto > everything ever. I don't see Beerus being millions of times stronger than Goku just for the lulz, but I can't prove that he's not.

I see no reason to drop the line at all. Its history of Z. SSJ2 Gohan was the most powerful character in the history of Z until the Boo saga. Throwing out the line is a cheap way to avoid what is stated. But if you want to throw it out because it wasn't Toriyama who said it, that's fine.

[TheGmGoken]

Nappa vs SSJ GOku JR

[hleV]

I see no reason to drop the line at all. Its history of Z. SSJ2 Gohan was the most powerful character in the history of Z until the Boo saga. Throwing out the line is a cheap way to avoid what is stated. But if you want to throw it out because it wasn't Toriyama who said it, that's fine.

I'm throwing the line out because it's outright wrong. Beerus can't be the strongest when someone stronger is standing right next to him.

[dbzfan7]

Nappa vs SSJ GOku JR

I'm thinking it could be Nappa. Goku jr though may have shown off hidden power stuff (been a long time since I saw that movie). Did Goku jr. do anything more impressive than (pl 10) Goku. On the other hand don't you need a really high battle power to use SSJ. The Daizenshuu says any Saiyan with a high battle power can become an SSJ. Guess GT didn't care about that.

I'm throwing the line out because it's outright wrong.

Well you seem to be alone on that one. You can disregard it if you want but I think we should end the topic right here.

[Kamiccolo9]

Nappa vs SSJ GOku JR

Nappa breaks him in half with his finger.

[RandomGuy96]

Goku Jr. < normal humans. King Piccolo would wreck SS Goku Jr.