Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

I just find it hard to believe it's his Super Saiyan when it looks far more like Super Saiyan Blue. They just recently made a point of SSJB Goku being cloaked in the Ki of the Gods which made sense because that's what SSJG had and then Black has the same exact thing going on with him which again makes sense because he's apparently made Goku's power his own, something he said after he was aware that Goku could become a God....and now supposedly its not that all along?

Trunks even said when Black saw the form he wasn't the least bit surprised which seemed to imply later was because he was capable of doing the same thing.

Actually, from the way Black referred to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, it sounds like while Super Saiyan God turns a Saiyan into an actual god, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan only cloaks the Saiyan in god energy, but they're still mortals.

But Black is weird since he doesn't really referred to himself as a god, but looks down on mortals like he isn't one.

I think the phrasing is picked apart too much. A version of Super Saiyan can refer to Super Saiyan Blue. It's the reference Goku Black used as shown when he transform. The traits of Super Saiyan Blue are present. It's his version of the transformation so it doesn't need to adhere to the "rules" of previous renditions. I think the intent is clear enough. Yes, it wasn't specific, but the visual and literary context work together.

This is my line of thinking as well, especially since Black calls all forms of Super Saiyan, just Super Saiyan.

[Helios518]

I think the phrasing is picked apart too much. A version of Super Saiyan can refer to Super Saiyan Blue. It's the reference Goku Black used as shown when he transforms. The traits of Super Saiyan Blue are present. It's his version of the transformation so it doesn't need to adhere to the "rules" of previous renditions. I think the intent is clear enough. Yes, it wasn't specific, but the visual and literary context work together.

I disagree with you even though I don't like it, it's not like they said "Goku Black's version of SSJ. Its a strength for a match for SSJ!!" but they outright said SSGSS in the second sentence so if they wanted to mean SSGSS then they would've put that. Anyways how often does official material refer to the original SSJ as Super Saiyan One, anyway?

[ekrolo2]

Bullza's proposed idea that Goku's power doesn't vary wildly from his base to even Blue does make another theory a lot more sensible. You know how some people say Goku, when activating KK with Blue isn't enhancing his God ki but rather using his regular ki simultaneously with it? If Goku's regular power wasn't far off from Blue, this would make his sharp power increase make a lot more sense than if Blue was leaps and bounds above his regular power. It would also explain how he can crank it up to times 10 and still be a lot under Beerus.

Base Goku - 1
SS Goku - 1.1
SS2 Goku - 1.2
SS3 Goku - 1.5
Blue - 2

KKX2 + Blue - 3.1 (Blue's 2 + Base' 1 increased by 0.1)
KKX3 + Blue - 3.2 (Blues 2 + Base' 1 increased by 0.2)

KKX10 + Blue - 4

[Helios518]

Bullza's proposed idea that Goku's power doesn't vary wildly from his base to even Blue does make another theory a lot more sensible. You know how some people say Goku, when activating KK with Blue isn't enhancing his God ki but rather using his regular ki simultaneously with it? If Goku's regular power wasn't far off from Blue, this would make his sharp power increase make a lot more sense than if Blue was leaps and bounds above his regular power. It would also explain how he can crank it up to times 10 and still be a lot under Beerus.

Base Goku - 1
SS Goku - 1.1
SS2 Goku - 1.2
SS3 Goku - 1.5
Blue - 2

KKX2 + Blue - 3.1 (Blue's 2 + Base' 1 increased by 0.1)
KKX3 + Blue - 3.2 (Blues 2 + Base' 1 increased by 0.2)

KKX10 + Blue - 4

So a KKx10 Base Goku would be better than a SSJ3 Goku and around SSJB level?

[ekrolo2]

Bullza's proposed idea that Goku's power doesn't vary wildly from his base to even Blue does make another theory a lot more sensible. You know how some people say Goku, when activating KK with Blue isn't enhancing his God ki but rather using his regular ki simultaneously with it? If Goku's regular power wasn't far off from Blue, this would make his sharp power increase make a lot more sense than if Blue was leaps and bounds above his regular power. It would also explain how he can crank it up to times 10 and still be a lot under Beerus.

Base Goku - 1
SS Goku - 1.1
SS2 Goku - 1.2
SS3 Goku - 1.5
Blue - 2

KKX2 + Blue - 3.1 (Blue's 2 + Base' 1 increased by 0.1)
KKX3 + Blue - 3.2 (Blues 2 + Base' 1 increased by 0.2)

KKX10 + Blue - 4

So a KKx10 Base Goku would be better than a SSJ3 Goku and around SSJB level?

Never said it was perfect

[TheMikado]

Yikes!!! Lol man my head hurts from just reading this stuff. Why is this so complicated!?!? Also so if SSR is equivalent to SSB and he doesn't have the other SSJ levels, how strong is Black?? Because he's SSJ3 in base. If he goes straight to SSB equivalent he skipped three levels of SSJ that he the anime says are in between there. He has to be hundreds of times stronger as SSR if that's the case.

[Chiki]

Yes. Trunks can sense Black's ki, but he can't sense the ki of gods like SSB Vegeta.

Wow this is completely wrong.

Like Base Goku and Vegeta, Black's ki can be sensed before they transform into SSB/SSR.

There is also nothing saying that Trunks can sense SSR Black's ki. Nothing whatsoever.

You know how some people say Goku, when activating KK with Blue isn't enhancing his God ki but rather using his regular ki simultaneously with it?

That's already been proven false. Hit says x3, x4.. x10.

[ekrolo2]

You know how some people say Goku, when activating KK with Blue isn't enhancing his God ki but rather using his regular ki simultaneously with it?

That's already been proven false. Hit says x3, x4.. x10.

That's him still increasing his regular ki through KK, Hit's statement doesn't negate that.

[TheMikado]

You know how some people say Goku, when activating KK with Blue isn't enhancing his God ki but rather using his regular ki simultaneously with it?

That's already been proven false. Hit says x3, x4.. x10.

That's him still increasing his regular ki through KK, Hit's statement doesn't negate that.

So you're saying Hit can only sense regular Ki and not God Ki?

[ekrolo2]

So you're saying Hit can only sense regular Ki and not God Ki?

Is there anything that implies he can sense God ki?

[Helios518]

You know how some people say Goku, when activating KK with Blue isn't enhancing his God ki but rather using his regular ki simultaneously with it?

That's already been proven false. Hit says x3, x4.. x10.

That's him still increasing his regular ki through KK, Hit's statement doesn't negate that.

Looking from the chart you made based off of what Bullza said, it would in fact negate it because in no world is 1x3 = 1.2 unless Hit has the skills of a first grader in math.

If you're not using that Bullza based chart, then kaioken based off Goku's regular ki would give insignificant boost in power and still wouldn't co-align with what Hit said and is shown.

The only way Hit's statement is correct and doesn't make him look like an idiot is if it indeed multiplied his God Ki/SSJB.

[TheMikado]

That's already been proven false. Hit says x3, x4.. x10.

That's him still increasing his regular ki through KK, Hit's statement doesn't negate that.

Looking from the chart you made based off of what Bullza said, it would in fact negate it because in no world is 1x3 = 1.2 unless Hit has the skills of a first grader in math.

If you're not using that Bullza based chart, then kaioken based off Goku's regular ki would give insignificant boost in power and still wouldn't co-align with what Hit said and is shown.

The only way Hit's statement is correct and doesn't make him look like an idiot is if it indeed multiplied his God Ki/SSJB.

What I'm hearing you say is that power levels make sense as long as your level of education hasn't exceeded 1st grade math.

[TheMikado]

So you're saying Hit can only sense regular Ki and not God Ki?

Is there anything that implies he can sense God ki?

I was pretty sure he could sense SSB.

[Helios518]

That's him still increasing his regular ki through KK, Hit's statement doesn't negate that.

Looking from the chart you made based off of what Bullza said, it would in fact negate it because in no world is 1x3 = 1.2 unless Hit has the skills of a first grader in math.

If you're not using that Bullza based chart, then kaioken based off Goku's regular ki would give insignificant boost in power and still wouldn't co-align with what Hit said and is shown.

The only way Hit's statement is correct and doesn't make him look like an idiot is if it indeed multiplied his God Ki/SSJB.

What I'm hearing you say is that power levels make sense as long as you do level of education hasn't exceeded 1st grade math.

"Ignorance is bliss" - Super's Motto

[Chiki]

You know how some people say Goku, when activating KK with Blue isn't enhancing his God ki but rather using his regular ki simultaneously with it?

That's already been proven false. Hit says x3, x4.. x10.

That's him still increasing his regular ki through KK, Hit's statement doesn't negate that.

Goku no longer has regular ki in SSB. No mortal can sense his ki in SSB so he has no regular ki. Multiplication only multiplies what already exists. 0 x 10 is still 0.

Only Hit, Golden Frieza, Vegeta, Beerus Whis etc. can sense his ki in SSB.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yes. Trunks can sense Black's ki, but he can't sense the ki of gods like SSB Vegeta.

Wow this is completely wrong.

Like Base Goku and Vegeta, Black's ki can be sensed before they transform into SSB/SSR.

There is also nothing saying that Trunks can sense SSR Black's ki. Nothing whatsoever.

Trunks was speculating that Black may be a god from the way he talked. Why didn't SSR confirm his suspicions, if it gave him godly ki? Why didn't he say anything about it?

[Bullza]

This small gap between forms could possibly work with what they said about Black too.

Goku used what appeared to be Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Black and he appeared to be on equal terms with him.

Trunks said Black in the future was a little stronger. Goku even made sure that he wasn't a lot stronger but just a little stronger and Trunks said yes.

He also said though this same Black was on par with or a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

So if Black is going from being equal to SSJ2 Goku to a bit stronger than SSJ3 Goku but he's only a little stronger...then SSJ3 Goku should only be a little stronger aswell.

[Helios518]

This small gap between forms could possibly work with what they said about Black too.

Goku used what appeared to be Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Black and he appeared to be on equal terms with him.

Trunks said Black in the future was a little stronger. Goku even made sure that he wasn't a lot stronger but just a little stronger and Trunks said yes.

He also said though this same Black was on par with or a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

So if Black is going from being equal to SSJ2 Goku to a bit stronger than SSJ3 Goku but he's only a little stronger...then SSJ3 Goku should only be a little stronger aswell.

A little stronger isn't the difference from SSJ2 Trunks being on part with SSJ2 Goku to SSJ3 Goku stomping SSJ2 Trunks.

[Nejishiki]

I disagree with you even though I don't like it, it's not like they said "Goku Black's version of SSJ. Its a strength for a match for SSJ!!" but they outright said SSGSS in the second sentence so if they wanted to mean SSGSS then they would've put that. Anyways how often does official material refer to the original SSJ as Super Saiyan One, anyway?

Sorry, I don't think I'm understanding you. I do feel as if we're falling into picking apart the phrasing again. There's an entire picture to consider, which I addressed. As for your closing question, do we have comparable referential material to quash my observation? Goku Black is being presented as an unique case, so I'm not sure how much ki can be put into official material describing Super Saiyan for others.

By the way, the second sentence of what? That's just part of the confusion I'm getting from your post. I hope we can clear it up. I'll take a dangerous guess and assume you meant the original scan? It states Super Saiyan Rosé is Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan and that it's comparable to Super Saiyan Blue. That's not a liberal interpretation on my part, I'm afraid.

[Bullza]

A little stronger isn't the difference from SSJ2 Trunks being on part with SSJ2 Goku to SSJ3 Goku stomping SSJ2 Trunks.

Maybe but he doesn't have to be multiple times stronger in order to do that. This is a series where being 20% stronger is a significant difference.

SSJ3 Goku one shotting Trunks was really out of place because Black was at least as strong and he didn't one shot Trunks. SSJB Vegeta, Zamasu or SSJR Black didn't one shot him either.

Plus in the manga he's supposed to be equal to SSJ3 Goku and he had to use God form to one shot him bit in the anime there is no God form which is maybe why there's a little inconsistency there.