Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Helios518]

I disagree with you even though I don't like it, it's not like they said "Goku Black's version of SSJ. Its a strength for a match for SSJ!!" but they outright said SSGSS in the second sentence so if they wanted to mean SSGSS then they would've put that. Anyways how often does official material refer to the original SSJ as Super Saiyan One, anyway?

Sorry, I don't think I'm understanding you. I do feel as if we're falling into picking apart the phrasing again. There's an entire picture to consider, which I addressed. As for your closing question, do we have comparable referential material to quash my observation? Goku Black is being presented as an unique case, so I'm not sure how much ki can be put into official material describing Super Saiyan for others.

By the way, the second sentence of what? That's just part of the confusion I'm getting from your post. I hope we can clear it up. I'll take a dangerous guess and assume you mean the original scan? It states Super Saiyan Rosé is Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan and that it's comparable to Super Saiyan Blue. That's not a liberal interpretation on my part, I'm afraid.

"Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan. Its strength is a match for SSGSS!!" This is exactly what Herm's posted and by the second sentence I mean the bold part. Which was me getting to the point of saying why wouldn't they say "Goku Black's version of SSGSS" instead it's not like they couldn't say SSGSS/SSJB because they did it a sentence later. It's not that hard to either add Blue or initialize it to SSGSS or SSJB instead of vaguely saying SSJ.

[Nejishiki]

Rivaling, matching, comparable. Herms is a better translator, but it all means the same thing (in context), doesn't it? I wasn't aware he transcribed it, but that's what I meant earlier. The emphasis on what phrasing the magazine chose is taken too literally. Would you say how I read it with my own skill made any significant difference? I fall back to using all of the information we have in conjunction with each other. Super Saiyan Blue is treated as "Super Saiyan with Super Saiyan God" in-universe. In other words, it's just Super Saiyan. If there is contrary magazine material that creates doubt, I'll gladly concede. I'm not sure why we need that specifically read for us when the traits are laid out by itself. Super Saiyan Rosé mimics Super Saiyan Blue. The normal Super Saiyan state has different characteristics. Personally, I can't find a case to work with that Goku Black is using an inferior and previously established Super Saiyan state, especially when it's noted that its his unique version of the power.

[TheMikado]

I don't understand the aboves point? Blacks Ki is sensible by Trunks, SSB and God Ki isn't. If Black can sense SSR then it's not God Ki. That doesn't mean it's not strong, it's just not a God form meaning if Black got the God ki form of SSJ it would be substantially stronger than if it was just plain SSJ.

[Nejishiki]

Are you referring to me? I remember somebody else stating that in another thread, but Future Trunks didn't attempt to sense Goku Black in Episode 56 when I watched it again. He did talk about the color though. I'm curious when that exchange of dialogue happened, if you could be of any help. It's hard to keep up with various accounts of the script, especially when they're never cited. If I had unlimited time, I would cross-reference the entire work of an episode each time, but alas!

[Alruneia]

Okay, so...
Rosé is Black's version of SSJ, and his power in that form rivals (well, beats) SSJB. If his base form is better than SSJ3 Goku and his Rosé form is better than SSJB Goku, isn't it then sensible that SSJB = SSJ3 x50 = Base x20,000? (In the manga and the two-base theory, that is.) If it is, then we're starting to have some real basis on which to compare characters with god powers and characters without them. Of course, we don't know exactly how strong Base Goku is now, but it's a useful tool anyway.

We don't know how much of a boost the (manga) God form gives, especially when Goku brought it out against Hit and against Trunks. The multiplier then is somewhere between Base x400 and Base x20,000. Judging from Whis' comments on Vegeta's Overused Blue form (less than 1/10 normal Blue and also weaker than God) and God Goku wrecking (FP)SSJ2 Trunks who was about equal to SSJ3 Goku, I think the multiplier is something like four or five thousand. I won't comment on God's power in the Battle of Gods arc, because that was through a ritual, not brought forth by own power, so things are different. (That's my in-universe excuse. In reality, the form's power simply changed when Toyotarou decided to bring it back.)

My guess for the multiplier list is now
Base x50 = SSJ
Base x100 = SSJ x2 = SSJ2
Base x400 = SSJ2 x4 = SSJ3
Base x4,000 = SSJ3 x10 = SSJG
Base x20,000 = SSJG x5 = SSJB

What do you think? Ridiculous or sensible?

[ekrolo2]

Okay, so...
Rosé is Black's version of SSJ, and his power in that form rivals (well, beats) SSJB. If his base form is better than SSJ3 Goku and his Rosé form is better than SSJB Goku, isn't it then sensible that SSJB = SSJ3 x50 = Base x20,000? (In the manga and the two-base theory, that is.) If it is, then we're starting to have some real basis on which to compare characters with god powers and characters without them. Of course, we don't know exactly how strong Base Goku is now, but it's a useful tool anyway.

We don't know how much of a boost the (manga) God form gives, especially when Goku brought it out against Hit and against Trunks. The multiplier then is somewhere between Base x400 and Base x20,000. Judging from Whis' comments on Vegeta's Overused Blue form (less than 1/10 normal Blue and also weaker than God) and God Goku wrecking (FP)SSJ2 Trunks who was about equal to SSJ3 Goku, I think the multiplier is something like four or five thousand. I won't comment on God's power in the Battle of Gods arc, because that was through a ritual, not brought forth by own power, so things are different. (That's my in-universe excuse. In reality, the form's power simply changed when Toyotarou decided to bring it back.)

My guess for the multiplier list is now
Base x50 = SSJ
Base x100 = SSJ x2 = SSJ2
Base x400 = SSJ2 x4 = SSJ3
Base x4,000 = SSJ3 x10 = SSJG
Base x20,000 = SSJG x5 = SSJB

What do you think? Ridiculous or sensible?

You think SSG is the same multiplier as 4?

[Helios518]

Okay, so...
Rosé is Black's version of SSJ, and his power in that form rivals (well, beats) SSJB. If his base form is better than SSJ3 Goku and his Rosé form is better than SSJB Goku, isn't it then sensible that SSJB = SSJ3 x50 = Base x20,000? (In the manga and the two-base theory, that is.) If it is, then we're starting to have some real basis on which to compare characters with god powers and characters without them. Of course, we don't know exactly how strong Base Goku is now, but it's a useful tool anyway.

We don't know how much of a boost the (manga) God form gives, especially when Goku brought it out against Hit and against Trunks. The multiplier then is somewhere between Base x400 and Base x20,000. Judging from Whis' comments on Vegeta's Overused Blue form (less than 1/10 normal Blue and also weaker than God) and God Goku wrecking (FP)SSJ2 Trunks who was about equal to SSJ3 Goku, I think the multiplier is something like four or five thousand. I won't comment on God's power in the Battle of Gods arc, because that was through a ritual, not brought forth by own power, so things are different. (That's my in-universe excuse. In reality, the form's power simply changed when Toyotarou decided to bring it back.)

My guess for the multiplier list is now
Base x50 = SSJ
Base x100 = SSJ x2 = SSJ2
Base x400 = SSJ2 x4 = SSJ3
Base x4,000 = SSJ3 x10 = SSJG
Base x20,000 = SSJG x5 = SSJB

What do you think? Ridiculous or sensible?

SSJ Gotenks is on par with Z SSJ3 Goku making SSJ3 Gotenks let alone SSJ3 Vegetto way to close to your SSJG multiplier.

Rivaling, matching, comparable. Herms is a better translator, but it all means the same thing (in context), doesn't it? I wasn't aware he transcribed it, but that's what I meant earlier. The emphasis on what phrasing the magazine chose is taken too literally. Would you say how I read it with my own skill made any significant difference? I fall back to using all of the information we have in conjunction with each other. Super Saiyan Blue is treated as "Super Saiyan with Super Saiyan God" in-universe. In other words, it's just Super Saiyan. If there is contrary magazine material that creates doubt, I'll gladly concede. I'm not sure why we need that specifically read for us when the traits are laid out by itself. Super Saiyan Rosé mimics Super Saiyan Blue. The normal Super Saiyan state has different characteristics. Personally, I can't find a case to work with that Goku Black is using an inferior and previously established Super Saiyan state, especially when it's noted that its his unique version of the power.

Now I understand where you are getting at.

[vegeku]

Hey guys, I've tried to create a power level ranking about all we have seen until now, focusing specially on the manga until the latest chapter 16. So I will avoid putting on it things like SSB+Kaiokenx10 or Tagoma after training.

Because we didn't see yet Black Goku SSRose I can't be sure where to put him exactly on the ranking. I assume he will be for sure more powerful than Goku and Vegeta in their SSBlue forms but not sure if he will surpass all the gods (probably he will do).

We have seen also Zamas fighting Kibito, but I can't put him yet because we didn't see his full power. But for sure he will be stronger than the East Kaioshin or any other as it has been said by him.

So here is the ranking, tell me what you think:

Zeno
¿Dai Shin Kan? (hasn't appeared yet in the manga, but probably he will be over here)
Whis / Vados
Bills / Champa
¿Black Goku SSRose? (we don't know his limit)
Goku SSBlue / Vegeta SSBlue
Hit
Golden Frieza
Goku SSGod
Vegetto SS
Goku (using god ki)
Frieza* Final Form / Super Buu Gohan
Ultimate Gohan
Black Goku / Gotenks SS3[/b] / Super Buu
Goku SS3 / Kid Buu
Future Trunks MSS2
Mr. Buu / Frieza* First From
Goku SS2 / Vegeta SS2 / Future Trunks SS2
Kid Gohan SS2 (Cell Games)
Super Perfect Cell
Dabura
Goku MSS / Vegeta MSS / Future Trunks MSS
Magetta
Cabba SS
Frost Final Form
Frost Assault Form
Goku / Vegeta / Future Trunks
Frost First Form / Cabba
Gohan SS
East Kaioshin
Piccolo
Trunks SS / Goten SS
Semi Perfect Cell
Android 16 / Cell (humans absorbed)
Android 18 / Android 17 / Cell
Gohan
Trunks / Goten
Kibito
Tenshinhan
Krillin
Jaco
Master Roshi
Mr. Satan / Monaka

(Characters in bold mean that they are currently alive or exist actually)

[Alruneia]

SSJ Gotenks is on par with Z SSJ3 Goku making SSJ3 Gotenks way to close to your SSJG multiplier let alone SSJ3 Vegetto.

I won't comment on God's power in the Battle of Gods arc, because that was through a ritual, not brought forth by own power, so things are different. (That's my in-universe excuse. In reality, the form's power simply changed when Toyotarou decided to bring it back.)

<yuge snip>

You think SSG is the same multiplier as 4?

If you mean SSJ4: Sure, why not. Super and GT are different continuities, so I don't really care if form multipliers happen to match up. I never really tried to figure out what SSJ4's multiplier should be, I just think that Golden Oozaru should be x500 because it's SSJ and Oozaru's multipliers at the same time.

[TheMikado]

Okay, so...
Rosé is Black's version of SSJ, and his power in that form rivals (well, beats) SSJB. If his base form is better than SSJ3 Goku and his Rosé form is better than SSJB Goku, isn't it then sensible that SSJB = SSJ3 x50 = Base x20,000? (In the manga and the two-base theory, that is.) If it is, then we're starting to have some real basis on which to compare characters with god powers and characters without them. Of course, we don't know exactly how strong Base Goku is now, but it's a useful tool anyway.

We don't know how much of a boost the (manga) God form gives, especially when Goku brought it out against Hit and against Trunks. The multiplier then is somewhere between Base x400 and Base x20,000. Judging from Whis' comments on Vegeta's Overused Blue form (less than 1/10 normal Blue and also weaker than God) and God Goku wrecking (FP)SSJ2 Trunks who was about equal to SSJ3 Goku, I think the multiplier is something like four or five thousand. I won't comment on God's power in the Battle of Gods arc, because that was through a ritual, not brought forth by own power, so things are different. (That's my in-universe excuse. In reality, the form's power simply changed when Toyotarou decided to bring it back.)

My guess for the multiplier list is now
Base x50 = SSJ
Base x100 = SSJ x2 = SSJ2
Base x400 = SSJ2 x4 = SSJ3
Base x4,000 = SSJ3 x10 = SSJG
Base x20,000 = SSJG x5 = SSJB

What do you think? Ridiculous or sensible?

You think SSG is the same multiplier as 4?

The SSJ4 x10 SSJ3 multiplier is not only unofficial, Its total BS. People only state it due to the x10 Goku says. In reality it's SSJ x 50 x ozaru x10 for x500. Greater than SSJ3 but not crazy powerful. Also full power SSJ4 would be like an x1000 to correspond with the SSJ2x 10 Ozaru multiplier. Anyway I would be ok with those multipliers.

Actually I would reverse the SSG and SSB multipliers that way they can easily correspond to the manga and not make Trunks vs SSB Vegeta or SSR weird

[Helios518]

SSJ Gotenks is on par with Z SSJ3 Goku making SSJ3 Gotenks way to close to your SSJG multiplier let alone SSJ3 Vegetto.

I won't comment on God's power in the Battle of Gods arc, because that was through a ritual, not brought forth by own power, so things are different. (That's my in-universe excuse. In reality, the form's power simply changed when Toyotarou decided to bring it back.)

That goes against what is said in the manga that SSJB surpassed SSJG (The only one shown at the time was the BoG one) but with your multipliers someone like Vegetto as a SSJ3 would be far stronger than said SSJB. Ending up with SSJG < SSJB < SSJ3 Vegetto < SSJG.. Nvm that, so you think someone like Ultimate Gohan is a match for current SSJG and SSJ3 Vegetto surpassing even SSJB?

[ekrolo2]

The SSJ4 x10 SSJ3 multiplier is not only unofficial, Its total BS. People only state it due to the x10 Goku says. In reality it's SSJ x 50 x ozaru x10 for x500. Greater than SSJ3 but not crazy powerful. Also full power SSJ4 would be like an x1000 to correspond with the SSJ2x 10 Ozaru multiplier. Anyway I would be ok with those multipliers.

Actually I would reverse the SSG and SSB multipliers that way they can easily correspond to the manga and not make Trunks vs SSB Vegeta or SSR weird

Considering the fact Baby kicks Goku's ass really easily as a Super Saiyan 3, I sincerely doubt Goku being just a fifth stronger than he used to be would be enough for him to stomp Baby like he does. Also, Dragon Ball has a habit of making condensed or concentrated abilities grow a person's power, look at the Raditz fight for good examples of this. I'd say its as high as 5000 and potentially more since it is also a potential unlock too. Its certainly no more or less bullshit than what you proposed for it.

If you mean SSJ4: Sure, why not. Super and GT are different continuities, so I don't really care if form multipliers happen to match up. I never really tried to figure out what SSJ4's multiplier should be, I just think that Golden Oozaru should be x500 because it's SSJ and Oozaru's multipliers at the same time.

Fair enough, my primary issue with such a low increase is that it's far too low for the anime and certainly too low for the manga. The manga doesn't have Goku absorb God and make that his new base strength as evidenced by the fact Goku uses it as just another transformation. If you also take into account that all the new material makes the Base Saiyan's inferior to even Namek Freeza, a 4000 times base increase is way too low to put God Goku above Vegetto. That would barely make him on par with Ultimate Gohan who was finger flicked by Beerus in the manga.

Unless you give Goku and Vegeta massive increases in strength for their Base forms (which is doubtful since Piccolo is still a great deal stronger than them if they don't use any transformations) they still end up much lower than a hypothetical Boo Saga SS3 Vegetto. A character who's supposed to be surpassed by the new forms, not just barely matched by them. Then again, the manga never has Goku say fusion would fail like the anime and movies did so maybe Toyotaro doesn't think Goku and Vegeta are above Vegetto?

[Bullza]

When it comes to making a power ranking it's actually fairly easy. It's just, like I said before, when you start putting these fixed numbers to things that it becomes a problem.

Zeno

Grand Priest
Whis/Vados
Beerus
Champa

Super Saiyan Rose Black/Future Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta
Golden Frieza
Hit
Black (could be higher)

Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (at the start of the saga anyway)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku/Vegeta
Zamasu
Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta
Super Saiyan Cabba
Magetta
Final Form Frost

Trunks
Goku/Vegeta/Cabba
Super Saiyan God Goku
Final Form Frieza
Assault Frost

Super Vegito
Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
First Form Frost
First Form Frieza
Majin Buu

Super Saiyan Gohan
Gohan/Piccolo
Tagoma

How Gotenks, Buu and Rageta compare to First Form Frieza I'm not sure but they could be weaker and they could be stronger but even if they are they're definitely not as strong as Final Form Frieza.

[Chiki]

OMG, seems like Base Trunks is only a bit more powerful than SSJ Kid Trunks...

[Chiki]

Ok let me go into a bit more detail now that the ep is over.

So Kid Trunks turns SSJ and gets a good punch on Base Trunks, visibly hurting him. Then they fight (off panel) and both look messed up, while SSJ Kid Trunks looks visibly more tired.

[Bullza]

New episode.

Super Saiyan Trunks is able to hit Base Future Trunks and knock him back though obviously he wasn't powered up or anything because he was just sitting there chilling before getting sucker punched.

Afterward though it looks like Base Future Trunks was all that was required to handle Super Saiyan Trunks, the latter had all marks on him and was breathing heavy (?), whereas Future Trunks seemed fine but had marks on him which would have been from the previous sucker punch I guess. So that at least was consistent thank god.

Beerus effortlessly killed Zamasu too but that was also pretty expected.

[TheMikado]

New episode.

Super Saiyan Trunks is able to hit Base Future Trunks and knock him back though obviously he wasn't powered up or anything because he was just sitting there chilling before getting sucker punched.

Afterward though it looks like Base Future Trunks was all that was required to handle Super Saiyan Trunks, the latter had all marks on him and was breathing heavy (?), whereas Future Trunks seemed fine but had marks on him which would have been from the previous sucker punch I guess. So that at least was consistent thank god.

Beerus effortlessly killed Zamasu too but that was also pretty expected.

Wait so SSJ kid Trunks is God Tier too now...?
I'll hold off on assumptions for now.

[pacz360]

When it comes to making a power ranking it's actually fairly easy. It's just, like I said before, when you start putting these fixed numbers to things that it becomes a problem.

Zeno

Grand Priest
Whis/Vados
Beerus
Champa

Super Saiyan Rose Black/Future Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta
Golden Frieza
Hit
Black (could be higher)

Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (at the start of the saga anyway)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku/Vegeta
Zamasu
Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta
Super Saiyan Cabba
Magetta
Final Form Frost

Trunks
Goku/Vegeta/Cabba
Super Saiyan God Goku
Final Form Frieza
Assault Frost

Super Vegito
Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
First Form Frost
First Form Frieza
Majin Buu

Super Saiyan Gohan
Gohan/Piccolo
Tagoma

How Gotenks, Buu and Rageta compare to First Form Frieza I'm not sure but they could be weaker and they could be stronger but even if they are they're definitely not as strong as Final Form Frieza.

Wait how hit below golden freeza and ssjb veggie and goku ? Hit stomped vegeta and held his own against kaioken x10 goku without using his killing techniques.

[dbzfan7]

I'm surprised they appeared consistent this week. If there's one single benefit to skipping over the Trunks' battle, it's for power level sake.....even if it still pisses me off they skipped over it.

[Bullza]

Wait so SSJ kid Trunks is God Tier too now...?

Nah, I'd need to look at the scene again and of course we never saw what happened but it seemed as though Base Future Trunks didn't have any trouble with Super Saiyan Trunks which is how it should be. I'd need to check if he was breathing like Kid Trunks or not.

On another note if Goku can sense SSJ Kid Trunks power on Beeru's planet then wouldn't that make him about as strong as SSJ Gohan when he called Goku to Earth?

Wait how hit below golden freeza and ssjb veggie and goku ? Hit stomped vegeta and held his own against kaioken x10 goku without using his killing techniques.

Well I wasn't taking his time skip abilities or killing techniques into consideration. In terms of pure power he was on the losing side when he fought Super Saiyan Blue Goku so he should be inferior. If we include the time skip abilities then you can move him up a few places.