Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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TheGmGoken
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by TheGmGoken » Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:56 pm
This doesn't make any sense. Goku was over 8.000, yet he still hadn't surpassed the Saiyan limits.
It wasn't talked about. Also Nappa said it was impossible for him to be that strong. Also remarks from Vegeta about Goku being low classed.
Also doesn't make sense. Vegeta was at 30.000, yet he still hadn't surpassed the Saiyan limits as well.
Once again wasn't talked about. Only Goku was talked about.
We don't know how strong the Saiyans were before King Vegeta's ruling. Vegeta's reaction implies that at least some of the Saiyans from the near past were somewhere at those levels.
KIng Vegeta started ruling after the War correct? What happen to all the strong Saiyans Huh? I mean the Tufludes could't have killed all of them or that would be convenient also didn't they turn Great Ape?
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:06 pm
Vegeta assumed that because Goku was beyond the standard level of the Saiyans, he was a Super Saiyan. Vegeta also realized that he surpassed the Saiyan limits only after he got a near-death power-up after Goku gave him a senzu.
Chapter: 289 (DBZ 95), P6.1-2
Context: after Jheese freaks out over Vegeta's new battle power
Vegeta: “That’s right…I’ve surpassed Saiyan limits, and my strength is still increasing more and more…The truth is that I’ve realized it too…That this extension of my power isn’t merely what you’d call giftedness…In other words…I’m steadily drawing near…to becoming a Super Saiyan!”
TheGmGoken wrote:KIng Vegeta started ruling after the War correct? What happen to all the strong Saiyans Huh? I mean the Tufludes could't have killed all of them or that would be convenient also didn't they turn Great Ape?
They either got killed in the war, or the "modern" Saiyans trained less than the old Saiyans.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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TheGmGoken
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by TheGmGoken » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:17 pm
They either got killed in the war, or the "modern" Saiyans trained less than the old Saiyans.
Wasn't they always fighting on planets for Freeza?
Vegeta assumed that because Goku was beyond the standard level of the Saiyans, he was a Super Saiyan. Vegeta also realized that he surpassed the Saiyan limits only after he got a near-death power-up after Goku gave him a senzu.
The standards are different for everyone. It's all over the place. Once again different level/class = different standard
Movie 4 Goku vs Freeza Arc Goku
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:23 pm
TheGmGoken wrote:Once again different level/class = different standard
That's purely your opinion about this, not a fact. All we know is that 30.000 is within the Saiyan limits, while 90.000 is beyond Saiyan limits. We were never told about low-class Saiyan limits, elite Saiyan limits, super-elite Saiyan limits, or current/past generation Saiyan limits. We just have Saiyan limits, which means that classes/generations have nothing to do with it.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Son Edo
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by Son Edo » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:20 pm
TheGmGoken wrote:
Movie 4 Goku vs Freeza Arc Goku
Goku one shots.
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:22 pm
Do they get to use their respective Super Saiyan forms? And can Movie 4 Goku use x100 Kaio-Ken without Piccolo's help?
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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PerfectFreeza
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by PerfectFreeza » Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:06 am
I have Ginyu arc. Goku = M4 Goku.FSSJ Goku could give Freeza arc. Base Goku a little bit of a fight.
Kaioken x 100 Goku would stomp him, but then again Freeza arc. Goku could just tenfold his power and beat his movie counterpart.
So IMO, Freeza arc. Goku wins.
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TheMightyOzaru
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by TheMightyOzaru » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:59 pm
Freeza arc Goku wins easy.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:13 pm
I'm just going to assume they can use all their abilities. So Movie 4 Goku uses kaio-ken x100 and one-shots Freeza Arc Goku, even if he attempts to use Super Saiyan.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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KentalSSJ6
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by KentalSSJ6 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:50 am
Super 17 (with or without absorbing energy) VS Super Baby Vegeta (Final Form, no Oozaru form).
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:33 am
KentalSSJ6 wrote:Super 17 (with or without absorbing energy) VS Super Baby Vegeta (Final Form, no Oozaru form).
Super 17 tanked Majuub's (maybe I should call him "Uub Repus"? Or just "Super Uub") hits like nothing, while final form Baby couldn't do the same. Super 17 stomps.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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PerfectFreeza
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by PerfectFreeza » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:23 am
Movie 10 LSSJ Broly vs Super Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Kid Gohan.
I think the duo rivals him.who wins?
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:26 am
PerfectFreeza wrote:Movie 10 LSSJ Broly vs Super Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Kid Gohan.
I think the duo rivals him.who wins?
Either one of them beats him like a green haired step child. In the event they go at him together, they temporarily put aside their differences to have fun using Broly as a volleyball.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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PerfectFreeza
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by PerfectFreeza » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:32 am
But shouldn't he be stronger than them?I mean, Broly was stated by the producer to be set up as the strongest Saiyan.That would mean he surpassess SSJ2 Kid Gohan, no?
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:56 am
You mean this quote?
“Broli was just that strong, so at the end of “Burn Up!!~", I figured he wasn’t dead. At any rate, it’s because he was set up as the strongest Saiyan."
The comment is quite cryptic and doesn't really tell us much of anything. "He was set up to be the strongest saiyan" while talking about Movie 8 could just mean he was intended to be the strongest while making Movie 8. Or he got a lot of hype ("Was SET UP to be the strongest") by appearing dominant in the movies. Or it could be that he was intended to be the strongest guy in whatever movie he was in, which is true. All we know for sure is SS Broly Movie 10 > SS Goku (probably Buu Saga), by the Daizenshuu. Everything else is up in the air.
And going purely by feats, Super Perfect Cell is stronger; he one-shotted SS2 kid Gohan while Broly three-shotted SS2 teen Gohan (who is much weaker) and had trouble with him at times, like when Gohan broke his hold and kneed him in the face, stunning him in pain for several seconds. Broly has no feats at all putting him that high, so I just have him mid SS2 tier.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:06 pm
PerfectFreeza wrote:Movie 10 LSSJ Broly vs Super Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Kid Gohan.
Gohan & Cell manage to inflict some damage together, but Gohan gets killed. Then, Cell gets desperate, and self-destructs, killing Broli. So, either everyone dies, or Cell wins (if he is lucky enough to survive).
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Eternal Super Saiyan
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by Eternal Super Saiyan » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:32 pm
KentalSSJ6 wrote:SSJ2 Bardock would be around 1 million. I've heard rumors Tullece reached a power that rivaled Freeza's first form but again those are rumors. Id say Bardock would crush him with relative ease.
That would make sense considering Goku used a kaioken x20 (which is MAX kaioken) and still couldn't even touch Turles in that movie. The only thing powerful enough was a spirit bomb. He must have been at least 500,000 when he ate another fruit.
[Edit]: also consider they did talk about eventually overpowering Frieza as part of their plan. If they intend to do this, they must also know how strong Frieza is? I think thats entirely possible that after a couple fruits he was about that strong.
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TheMightyOzaru
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by TheMightyOzaru » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:28 pm
Gohan and Cell dominate. Not only does Gohan have anger reserves, Cell has potential Zenkais. Cell could also blow up Earth with no re-precautions. I also believe Gohan and Cell are generally stronger than Broly. a Beam struggle wouldn't last a second since we have 2 SSJ2 tiers double teaming him. I'll paint a picture of how badly Gohan and Cell dominate IMO:
Cell: 7,500,000,000
-Kamehameha: 9,000,000,000
Gohan: 7,500,000,000
-Kamehameha: 9,000,000,000
-Combined Kamehameha W/ Cell: 18,000,000,000
Broly: 7,200,000,000
-Omega Blaster: 8,700,000,000
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:26 pm
So we're doing the power level thing?
Enraged Gohan SS2- 7,500,000,000
Super Perfect Cell- 7,200,000,000
LSS Broly- 6,600,000,000
He gets wrecked.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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KentalSSJ6
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by KentalSSJ6 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:17 pm
I think Movie 9 Gohan could take on Movie 10 Broly alone. I mean Movie 9 Gohan is his second strongest incarnation right behind his Mystic Form. Isnt movie 9 about 2-3 years after Cell? I also believe its mentioned Gohan consistently trained between Cell and Bojack so hed be even stronger than he was during Cell.
