Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[pacz360]

The person "speedblitzing" has to think, too. You're ignoring this. You don't just rush someone without your brain having to make your body do it. That's really all there is to it. The "speedblitzer" doesn't have a chance because they have to go through two steps to kill the telepath, while the telepath only has to go through one.

I'm not ignoring anything that's like saying or Professor X can blow up the Flash's brain becuase he's a telepath but ignoring that Flash has femtosecond reaction times(probably higher)

X doesn't have femtosecond reaction time so as soon as the fight starts Flash speedblitz him before he can react.He still needs to think before he goes in someones mind unless you're implying X can think faster than the flash

The Flash is resistant to telepathy because the Speed Force does that because Speed Force. Speed-forceless speedsters always lose against telepaths. Hell, half the time, telepaths still take out the Flash, even with the Speed Force being the Speed Force. Why do you think Gorilla Grodd is a threat to the guy? It's not because he's a giant monkey.

Reaction time is irrelevant. I'm talking about the delay between deciding to do something, and your body actually starting to doing it. How long it takes to process information doesn't even come into play here.

All of this is irrelevant anyway, since no Dragon Ball character is remotely as fast as the Flash. If you were to put Professor X and Goku 3 meters away from each other, and yell "fight," Xavier would know what Goku would do before he did it, and he'd have Goku thinking he was in a land of infinite food before Goku could move. "Speedblitzing" wouldn't even enter the picture.

Yes it does and again it depends on the level of the reality warper or telepath plus also on how the match is set plus if the characters are not holding back speedblitzing can work if you literally faster than said opponent before they think regardless me and you aren't gonna budge on this we can agree to disagree.

[Kamiccolo9]

Yes it does and again it depends on the level of the reality warper or telepath plus also on how the match is set plus if the characters are not holding back speedblitzing can work if you literally faster than said opponent before they think regardless me and you aren't gonna budge on this we can agree to disagree.

Ok sure.

But let's be completely honest for a second. None of us are talking about low-level telepaths or reality warpers. We aren't talking about, say, Glorian, who can only manipulate reality in a certain radius around himself to a limited extent. Most reality warpers, in Marvel, at least, either exist without a physical body(Proteus), don't need a physical body (Kosmos/The Beyonder), or can just bring themselves back to life at will (HoM Wanda.) "Death" is meaningless to them.

Speedblitzing is useless against reality warpers because the "rules" don't apply. I've been reading Marvel, and DC, to a less extent, for twenty years, and not once have I seen a true reality warper get "speedblitzed."

And again, all of this is kinda pointless anyway, because nothing seems to indicate that Goku and co. are faster than thought. If they were, then people like Mr. Satan or the Budokai Announcer, or even Roshi, Yamcha, etc. wouldn't be able to follow the fights. I mean, in Battle of Gods, Marron is there watching Goku and Beerus fight just like everyone else. The Budokai announcer jumps out of the way of one of Goten/Trunks' ki attacks. Mr. Satan follows the Buu fight. Everyone on Earth manages to perceive Goku vs Fat Buu telepathically. For all the "powerscaling" that goes on all the time, speed feats in Dragon Ball are neither consistent, nor particularly impressive, in the grand scheme of things.

[Cody]

The only time TTI-ere Thanos was ever KO'd was immediately after his regeneration from the cocoon, when he hadn't fully recovered yet. Following that, he was "killed" by Drax, and immediately fully regenerated. He didn't "go to the underworld," because he's literally banned from going there. Death won't let him.

Still doesn't mean he can't be koed. Surpass his durability, and he will be koed.

As for feats, in Guardians of the Galaxy, Volume 3, #18, when he's trapped in the Cancerverse, he's shrugging off blasts from a Cosmic Cube,

Huge outlier as it has shown to be capable of sending him on his behind. I am sure there is some context to that incident as well.

and the Cubes are superior to the Odin Force.

Both of which are more than enough to flat out annihilate Thanos. So him shrugging off their most powerful attacks isn't legit.

In Thanos: Samaritan, the story right after the one you referenced where he fights Galactus, he defeats the Beyonder.

Who is nowhere near as powerful as he was prior to his retcon so that isn't much of a feat.

In last year's Thanos Annual by Jim Starlin, who created Thanos, it is shown that his power is continuously growing, and that he will eventually end up as a mid-tier abstract, on par with Celestials.

Doesn't get the benefit of the doubt either way. We know it is obviously something slow, as he hasn't gotten that much more powerful from my previous scans.

The guy tanked multiple screams by Black Bolt at point-blank range in Infinity.

Said screams have been known to send him flat on his ass so...

You also left out his impressive tanking of Omega's attack in Infinity Abyss, which is notable because Omega was said to be "about twice as powerful as Galactus." Even if that is hyperbole, anyone in that general range is much stronger than Odin.

Which means said attacks were nowhere near that powerful as even Odins max. That, or it's the same incident as Spiderman vs Firelord. Something taking hits from another being well above his station, as he is generally nowhere near skyfather level as of yet.

Honestly, while I don't think it was ever explicitly stated, I believe Thanos got a pretty substantial power boost after the Cosmic Power storyline, where he stole information and equipment from Tyrant. That would explain a lot, especially the Omega and Beyonder fights, as well as him being able to knock a well-fed Galactus on his ass in the Hunger storyline.

It was a surprise attack that he did on Galactus, one that did no damage whatsoever.

Then, in The Thanos Imperative, we see the guy rip through a team of immortal alternate-reality Avengers, including manhandling Lord Mar-vel, who was well above Nova Prime, who defeated Annihilus, who was stronger than most Heralds of Galactus.

Based on?

We already know Thanos treats heralds as absolute trash, as evident by his beating on Surfer easily every time they go at it.

So no, while he hasn't gotten an explicit in-storyline power boost, it's undeniable that there's been a gradual escalation of the guy's feats lately,

Based on some questionable incidents that were either hugely above his usual showings, are missing some context. Either way, not really. As you're pretty much currently claiming he can take galaxy busting level attacks when he really, really can't.

especially considering how several other characters seem somewhat depowered from their Classic incarnations. Thanos just keeps getting stronger and stronger.

No offence, but it seems to be based on no actual consistent showings.

I don't deny that Odin could beat current Thanos, but I would argue that Odin can't put him down. It'd be a great fight.

It wouldn't be as Odin is a galaxy buster and Thanos can't take anywhere near that type of damage.

Uh, Dragon Ball. Yeah. Um....Goku can punch real hard now, right?

Roughly in the Pre-Crisis Kryptonian tier yes.

Don't get me wrong; Thanos is obviously a high tier character. He, along with Sentry, are in that sweet spot between Herald and Skyfather. But even combined, they are nowhere near as powerful as a Skyfather, just like how a Herald is nowhere near as powerful as them. The gab between a Skyfather, and Thanos, is about as big as the gap between Surfer, and Thanos.

Thanos; is like a diet Pre-Crisis Darkseid. Both have TP abilities, with Thanos being his superior in that end, but Darkseid could still hold off his mental attacks. Thanos hit's hard, but not as hard as PC Darkseid(who can smack a PC Kryptonian hard enough to send him into a coma), and without his shields? Thanos isn't as durable as PC Darkseid, as PC Darkseid flat out ignores hits from PC Kryptonians. Thanos needs his shields up to be as tough as that.

And PC Darkseid isn't on Odin's level either.

How much faster are they compared to light? What about Goku as a kid, he was on the ground not moving while a laser was going towards him and he dodged it Also when Kid Goku out speeded a solar flare to get Roshi's sunglasses while Roshi and hitting Tenshinhan.

The former was aim dodging, and a huge outlier otherwise. Same goes for the Solar Flare. Consistently? They are only in the high hypersonic range of speed in Dragonball. Not getting to near light-light till Namek saga(talking Goku and Frieza specifically), and don't get too much faster than that as the gaps in speed seem to smaller compared to the gap between the Saiyan saga and Namek. Making them slightly FTL by the end of Z. Now? I wouldn't really argue against them being MFTL, but they don't have many reaction feats to support it. Even if we do, that would mean they would still be either statues, or just as fast as EOS Seiya and Hades from Saint Seiya. And statues to Wally, Gladiator, and Surfer. Which means they would be statues to the likes of Pre-Crisis Superman.

[Kamiccolo9]

You know, you're saying that I'm not providing consistent showings, but....I've provided a showing from essentially every Thanos appearance since Blood and Thunder. I should know; I own all of them, and I made sure to provide a feat from each storyline he appears in.

I left out his Ka-Zar storyline, because that is an early Thanosi clone, as revealed in Infinity Abyss.
Same with the Hulk/X-Man annual, because that is the same clone.
I left out the one that Thor defeated in Thor Volume 2, 25, because, as mentioned in Captain Marvel, that was another clone.
And I didn't throw in feats from Avengers: Celestial Quest or Captain Marvel, because he doesn't really do much fighting in either of them.
And I didn't bring up Marvel the End, for obvious reasons.

Practically every other Thanos appearance in the last 20 years was referenced in my post. It's hardly inconsistent.

Thanos is literally indestructible now. Seriously, read the Thanos Imperative. He has near-instant total regenerative powers, and he can't die. He can't be "KO'd." Of course, Secret Wars may have changed that, but I've seen nothing to suggest so.

It's not an "outlier." It's one of his first feats after his powerup in the Thanos Imperative.

Post-Retcon Beyonder is a living Cosmic Cube. He/She has all the power of a Cosmic Cube. Please, read the story. It discusses this.

They may have once "knocked him on his ass," although, to my knowledge, Thanos had never fought Black Bolt before. In Infinity, he gets a point-blank scream to the face by an enraged Black Bolt after Thanos orders him to turn over all Inhuman children so that he can slaughter them, and smiles, and asks for more. 3 Screams later, We see Thanos in a busted up shirt holding a beaten and bloody Black Bolt by the head.

He goes on to say that he'll lose the fight, but that's not the point. The point is that he can survive these kind of attacks.

It's more than anyone save Odin has done to a well-fed Galactus. Aside from people who are actually above Galactus, of course.

Annihilus's heralds were equal to if not stronger than all of the heralds save the Surfer. Ravenous, the strongest one, put up an excellent fight against the Surfer before the latter was strengthened by Galactus. Annihilus was much stronger than Ravenous, due to some unexplained boost he received prior to Annihilation. Which the story, again, makes more than clear.

The thing is, you claiming that I'm being inconsistent is actually you just discounting virtually every story that Thanos has been in since Blood and Thunder, where he fought Odin, back in the early 90's. The Mad Titan is much stronger than he used to be.

And of course he could tank a Galaxy-busting attack. The guy can't die, and he instantly recovers from all damage.

Seriously, if you want to debate Thanos with me, read the storylines. Reading up on respect threads doesn't provide the context.


And that last bit was meant to be a subtle mention that we are off topic. If you want to debate this further, go to PM.

[Cody]

You aren't exactly providing any scans either.

To shrug off attacks from a cosmic cube at full power, which, as you said, is superior than the power given by the Odinforce, that would mean you are saying he could take galaxy busting attacks. As that is the type of power Odin can dish out.

Considering the fact that it is highly unlikely the cosmic cubes are hitting him with their full power, I doubt he was shrugging off galaxy busters.

You aren't providing many actual feats. You said he received some apparent power boosts while he didn't provide any feats to back it up, meaning you base this on narrative alone. You claim he fought and defeated Beyonder, but don't provide any scans, same goes for the Cosmic Cube.

Thanos can still be koed and a galaxy buster would do just that and more. He is a "Diet" Pre-Crisis Darkseid in terms of physical ability. He is stupid strong and durable, but without his shields? Not as durable as Darkseid, nor is he has strong as him either. And Darkseid is nothing to a Skyfather.

And get my facts from respect threads? For requesting you to back up your claims while telling you how narrative alone isn't evidence of a character being more powerful than they were? Lol okay.

Why do you think Gorilla Grodd is a threat to the guy? It's not because he's a giant monkey.

It's called plot induced stupidity. Most of Flash's villains would be done before they could react but that wouldn't make for an interesting story.

Reaction time is irrelevant. I'm talking about the delay between deciding to do something, and your body actually starting to doing it. How long it takes to process information doesn't even come into play here.

Except in this case, reaction time means how fast you can think and react.

All of this is irrelevant anyway, since no Dragon Ball character is remotely as fast as the Flash.

Depends on the version. Current Barry? They absolutely are. Pre-flashpoint Barry? Hard to say. Wally? They are nowhere near as Fast. PC Barry? Wally isn't even anywhere near as fast as him.

If you were to put Professor X and Goku 3 meters away from each other, and yell "fight," Xavier would know what Goku would do before he did it, and he'd have Goku thinking he was in a land of infinite food before Goku could move. "Speedblitzing" wouldn't even enter the picture.

Wat. No. Xavier would be in the process of thinking a single thought as Goku would turn him into paste before he could finish. That is the massive difference here.

When the plot isn't making the characters stupid, this is how fast characters perceive the world around them:



Speed kills, unless someone is too durable to hurt.

[Kamiccolo9]

You aren't exactly providing any scans either.

To shrug off attacks from a cosmic cube at full power, which, as you said, is superior than the power given by the Odinforce, that would mean you are saying he could take galaxy busting attacks. As that is the type of power Odin can dish out.

Considering the fact that it is highly unlikely the cosmic cubes are hitting him with their full power, I doubt he was shrugging off galaxy busters.

You aren't providing many actual feats. You said he received some apparent power boosts while he didn't provide any feats to back it up, meaning you base this on narrative alone. You claim he fought and defeated Beyonder, but don't provide any scans, same goes for the Cosmic Cube.

Thanos can still be koed and a galaxy buster would do just that and more. He is a "Diet" Pre-Crisis Darkseid in terms of physical ability. He is stupid strong and durable, but without his shields? Not as durable as Darkseid, nor is he has strong as him either. And Darkseid is nothing to a Skyfather.

And get my facts from respect threads? For requesting you to back up your claims while telling you how narrative alone isn't evidence of a character being more powerful than they were? Lol okay.

Because you don't seem to want to take this to PM...

I don't have a way of providing scans, although I have provided issue numbers for quite a few of these. If you insist, I can provide issue, page numbers, and which panel said feat takes place in, along with all the dialogue pertinent to the feat in question. I could probably dig up most of the scans on Comic Vine somewhere, but that sounds like a pain in the ass, and wouldn't be necessary, if you, like I advised, actually familiarized yourself with the subject matter. I don't see why I should provide basic details about the character just because you've decided to ignore every appearance the character has made over the last 20 years. If nothing else, take the time to read the guy's Wikipedia page.

Not providing actual feats? I've used at least one from every Thanos story since his fight with Odin! I'm not sure what else you want. You seem to have a preconceived notion of how powerful a character is, and are basing that on, for some reason, his 1993-94 incarnation.

And none of the durability feats are even necessary, since the guy is now completely immortal. He's got Garlic Junior style immortality. He can't be physically beaten, because he instantly regenerates and is incapable of dying. Which you would know if you read the story.

[dbzfan7]

I really wouldn't argue with Kamiccolo on Marvel or possibly DC to a lesser extent. Unless you actually have read the comics in question. Reading some forum posts on versus battles is not the same thing.

[Cody]

You aren't exactly providing any scans either.

To shrug off attacks from a cosmic cube at full power, which, as you said, is superior than the power given by the Odinforce, that would mean you are saying he could take galaxy busting attacks. As that is the type of power Odin can dish out.

Considering the fact that it is highly unlikely the cosmic cubes are hitting him with their full power, I doubt he was shrugging off galaxy busters.

You aren't providing many actual feats. You said he received some apparent power boosts while he didn't provide any feats to back it up, meaning you base this on narrative alone. You claim he fought and defeated Beyonder, but don't provide any scans, same goes for the Cosmic Cube.

Thanos can still be koed and a galaxy buster would do just that and more. He is a "Diet" Pre-Crisis Darkseid in terms of physical ability. He is stupid strong and durable, but without his shields? Not as durable as Darkseid, nor is he has strong as him either. And Darkseid is nothing to a Skyfather.

And get my facts from respect threads? For requesting you to back up your claims while telling you how narrative alone isn't evidence of a character being more powerful than they were? Lol okay.

Because you don't seem to want to take this to PM...

I don't have a way of providing scans, although I have provided issue numbers for quite a few of these. If you insist, I can provide issue, page numbers, and which panel said feat takes place in, along with all the dialogue pertinent to the feat in question. I could probably dig up most of the scans on Comic Vine somewhere, but that sounds like a pain in the ass, and wouldn't be necessary, if you, like I advised, actually familiarized yourself with the subject matter. I don't see why I should provide basic details about the character just because you've decided to ignore every appearance the character has made over the last 20 years. If nothing else, take the time to read the guy's Wikipedia page.

Not providing actual feats? I've used at least one from every Thanos story since his fight with Odin! I'm not sure what else you want. You seem to have a preconceived notion of how powerful a character is, and are basing that on, for some reason, his 1993-94 incarnation.

And none of the durability feats are even necessary, since the guy is now completely immortal. He's got Garlic Junior style immortality. He can't be physically beaten, because he instantly regenerates and is incapable of dying. Which you would know if you read the story.

And if you read my replies, you'd know I am not saying he would die. He can still be koed, and the point is how much he can withstand before losing consciousness, which he has before. Surpass his durability, and you can maim and ko him. At least for a 10 count.

Immortality =/= instant win in fights.

And..you didn't bring up anything, That's the point. You said he got a power up here and there, okay cool. No impressive showings to support any significant boost. You claimed tanking a hit from Omega was impressive because Omega was more powerful than Odin. You say this..based on nothing. Seriously; his feats don't put him on the level you put him on.



Otherwise you are arguing that Genis is durable enough to tank hits from a being who is supposedly stronger than Odin.

You claiming that he was shrugging off hits from the Cosmic cube doesn't fit with showings:



He was without his gear, but the Cosmic cube had barely any power in it. Yet it sent him down.

Yet somehow you claim a bunch of cosmic cubes combined couldn't even faze him? You realize you are putting Thanos well above Odin with these claims of yours yes?

I never even seen a scan of Thanos facing off with Beyonder, let alone beating him. There is even an inhuman version of him that isn't that powerful at all:


You can name and describe what happens all you want. But scans support your claims, and you haven't provided any. Constantly saying I am not reading the story and am getting info from respect threads won't change the fact that what you claim..isn't exactly correct. The scan above shows Thanos can be downed by attacks well below what a Skyfather can dish out, and his showings do not put him at the level you say he is at as Omega has zero feats to put him anywhere near even Skyfather level of power, let alone Galactus. And considering Genis survived an attack from him? Yea, taking an attack from Omega isn't as impressive as you claim.

[Kamiccolo9]

You aren't exactly providing any scans either.

To shrug off attacks from a cosmic cube at full power, which, as you said, is superior than the power given by the Odinforce, that would mean you are saying he could take galaxy busting attacks. As that is the type of power Odin can dish out.

Considering the fact that it is highly unlikely the cosmic cubes are hitting him with their full power, I doubt he was shrugging off galaxy busters.

You aren't providing many actual feats. You said he received some apparent power boosts while he didn't provide any feats to back it up, meaning you base this on narrative alone. You claim he fought and defeated Beyonder, but don't provide any scans, same goes for the Cosmic Cube.

Thanos can still be koed and a galaxy buster would do just that and more. He is a "Diet" Pre-Crisis Darkseid in terms of physical ability. He is stupid strong and durable, but without his shields? Not as durable as Darkseid, nor is he has strong as him either. And Darkseid is nothing to a Skyfather.

And get my facts from respect threads? For requesting you to back up your claims while telling you how narrative alone isn't evidence of a character being more powerful than they were? Lol okay.

Because you don't seem to want to take this to PM...

I don't have a way of providing scans, although I have provided issue numbers for quite a few of these. If you insist, I can provide issue, page numbers, and which panel said feat takes place in, along with all the dialogue pertinent to the feat in question. I could probably dig up most of the scans on Comic Vine somewhere, but that sounds like a pain in the ass, and wouldn't be necessary, if you, like I advised, actually familiarized yourself with the subject matter. I don't see why I should provide basic details about the character just because you've decided to ignore every appearance the character has made over the last 20 years. If nothing else, take the time to read the guy's Wikipedia page.

Not providing actual feats? I've used at least one from every Thanos story since his fight with Odin! I'm not sure what else you want. You seem to have a preconceived notion of how powerful a character is, and are basing that on, for some reason, his 1993-94 incarnation.

And none of the durability feats are even necessary, since the guy is now completely immortal. He's got Garlic Junior style immortality. He can't be physically beaten, because he instantly regenerates and is incapable of dying. Which you would know if you read the story.

And if you read my replies, you'd know I am not saying he would die. He can still be koed, and the point is how much he can withstand before losing consciousness, which he has before. Surpass his durability, and you can maim and ko him. At least for a 10 count.

Immortality =/= instant win in fights.

And..you didn't bring up anything, That's the point. You said he got a power up here and there, okay cool. No impressive showings to support any significant boost. You claimed tanking a hit from Omega was impressive because Omega was more powerful than Odin. You say this..based on nothing. Seriously; his feats don't put him on the level you put him on.

Spoiler:

Otherwise you are arguing that Genis is durable enough to tank hits from a being who is supposedly stronger than Odin.

You claiming that he was shrugging off hits from the Cosmic cube doesn't fit with showings:

Spoiler:

He was without his gear, but the Cosmic cube had barely any power in it. Yet it sent him down.

Yet somehow you claim a bunch of cosmic cubes combined couldn't even faze him? You realize you are putting Thanos well above Odin with these claims of yours yes?

I never even seen a scan of Thanos facing off with Beyonder, let alone beating him. There is even an inhuman version of him that isn't that powerful at all:

Spoiler:

You can name and describe what happens all you want. But scans support your claims, and you haven't provided any. Constantly saying I am not reading the story and am getting info from respect threads won't change the fact that what you claim..isn't true at all. the scan above shows Thanos can be downed by attacks well below what a Skyfather can dish out, and his showings do not put him at the level you say he is at as Omega has zero feats to put him anywhere near even Skyfather level of power, let alone Galactus. And considering Genis survived an attack from him? Yea, taking an attack from Omega isn't as impressive as you claim.

This is the last time I'm responding to you, because this is egregiously off-topic, and I'd rather a mod didn't come in and shut the thread down.
You are throwing up scans out of context, and without knowledge of the rest of the work.

None of what you posted covers his post-Thanos Imperative state, which is when he became banned from Death. Anything prior to that is irrelevant when discussing that aspect of his durability.

In Infinity Abyss #6, page 7, bottom-left panel Genis-Vel asks Thanos how strong the Omega is. Thanos replies "Probably twice as powerful as Galactus." Everyone goes on to ask him why he even considered making something like that, and he basically replies "because it was a fun challenge."
On page 29, the Omega blasts him, and he looks as if he's in worse shape than he does later when Galactus attacks him in the Epiphany storyline, and thinks to himself that he would not last another two minutes, and this is after three of his force fields, and his armor are destroyed in one attack.

He shrugs off blasts from the Cosmic Cube in Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 3 #18, pages 4, 5,11, and 13. This is a flashback issue that serves as a continuation of the storyline that has the scan you posted when he gets knocked out by the cube. It knocks him around a bit, but he gets up smiling each time except the last. The scan you posted is out of context, and shows a weakened Thanos that was prematurely awoken from his resurrection after his death in Annihilation.

That Beyonder scan you posted has been rendered null and void by later revelations that the Beyonder is a true cosmic entity, including in the Thanos: Samaritan storyline, which is a sequel miniseries to the Hunger storyline, which is where the Galactus fight occurs. In it, a being known as "The Maker" has taken over a prison located at the Big Crunch. Thanos investigates, and gets his ass kicked by the Maker, who he reveals is the Beyonder. Thanos goes back later in the storyline, and beats the maker into submission.

Incidentally, the lead-up to the current Secret Wars storyline has given the current "definitive" history of the Beyonder, going back to the "he's an immature omnipotent cosmic being" approach that the Secret Wars III mini-arc in Fantastic Four gave.

Feel free to verify those with anybody who'll help you, or buy the comics and see for yourself. I don't particularly care which. All of this is pretty much common knowledge, and it shouldn't be too hard to find somebody on Comic Vine or something to confirm it.

But that's probably not going to be good enough for you, since you seem to have pre-conceived notions on how powerful the character in question is, and you are basing this off a comic that is twenty-two years out of date, and are disregarding feats more recent than that. Whatever. Regardless, this is all off-topic. Don't bother replying, I've already provided enough stuff, and there's no reason to drag this out.

Auf wiedersehen.

[Blackstripe]

Wow, this is looking like a comic vine thread. Am I in the right place?

[Kamiccolo9]

Wow, this is looking like a comic vine thread. Am I in the right place?

I've tried, repeatedly, to shift this to PM, but the guy won't cooperate.

Regardless, it's over now. Please return to your normally scheduled Dragon Ball activities.

Beeeeeep....beep.....beep....beep.

[Cody]

This is the last time I'm responding to you, because this is egregiously off-topic, and I'd rather a mod didn't come in and shut the thread down.

While fair, it's not like this is going to keep me from replying to you.

You are throwing up scans out of context, and without knowledge of the rest of the work.

I am using scans while you are using narrative and refusing to provide scans...how am I missing context?

None of what you posted covers his post-Thanos Imperative state, which is when he became banned from Death. Anything prior to that is irrelevant when discussing that aspect of his durability.

You don't read a good chunk of a persons reply it seems. He can still be hurt and koed, which is the entire point I am getting at. Being immortal doesn't mean you instantly win a fight.

In Infinity Abyss #6, page 7,

Here we go again. Your inability to post any scan to support your argument doesn't help your case in the slightest. Trying to describe events while expecting people to take your word for it isn't how things work mate.

bottom-left panel Genis-Vel asks Thanos how strong the Omega is. Thanos replies "Probably twice as powerful as Galactus." Everyone goes on to ask him why he even considered making something like that, and he basically replies "because it was a fun challenge."

So again you base your argument on hyperbolic narrative and not actual showings? Seems legit.

On page 29, the Omega blasts him, and he looks as if he's in worse shape than he does later when Galactus attacks him in the Epiphany storyline, and thinks to himself that he would not last another two minutes, and this is after three of his force fields, and his armor are destroyed in one attack.

So Omega blasts him with an attack that was of unknown level of damage, just that it was capable of hurting Thanos. How is that any different than one Odin can do? And funny how you went from: "Thanos tanked his attacks!" To: "Thanos looked in worse shape than he did when Galactus blasted him". Good to know you like to twist the story every so often to suit your argument.

He shrugs off blasts from the Cosmic Cube in Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 3 #18, pages 4, 5,11, and 13. This is a flashback issue that serves as a continuation of the storyline that has the scan you posted when he gets knocked out by the cube. It knocks him around a bit, but he gets up smiling each time except the last. The scan you posted is out of context, and shows a weakened Thanos that was prematurely awoken from his resurrection after his death in Annihilation.

And that cosmic cube was heavily drained of it's power, to the point it was cracking and barely any power left. So it more than evens it out. And if the cosmic cubes can dish out as much power as you claimed it could, then those hits should have done some damage. For being immortal does not make one immune to damage. They just can't die. Doesn't mean he can't be put in a state similar to that of, say; Shinnok from Mortal Kombat.

That Beyonder scan you posted has been rendered null and void by later revelations that the Beyonder is a true cosmic entity, including in the Thanos: Samaritan storyline, which is a sequel miniseries to the Hunger storyline, which is where the Galactus fight occurs. In it, a being known as "The Maker" has taken over a prison located at the Big Crunch. Thanos investigates, and gets his ass kicked by the Maker, who he reveals is the Beyonder. Thanos goes back later in the storyline, and beats the maker into submission.

Now look whose taking things out of context. For starters; she was bat shit insane. He hit her with a mind whammy.



Side Note: I miss Skreet, she was the Navi to Thanos's Link

And as shown here:


Thanos even states she was vulnerable due to taken a mortal form. Which is different from her time as Kosmos:

Feel free to verify those with anybody who'll help you, or buy the comics and see for yourself. I don't particularly care which. All of this is pretty much common knowledge, and it shouldn't be too hard to find somebody on Comic Vine or something to confirm it.

Well, comic vine isn't exactly a decent site to go to for knowledgeable people in terms of debating. And you took the Beyonder thing way out of context. As The Maker was weakened, and Thanos took advantage of her fragile mental state.

But that's probably not going to be good enough for you, since you seem to have pre-conceived notions on how powerful the character in question is,

It's called going on high end consistent feats and not taking things out of context.

and you are basing this off a comic that is twenty-two years out of date,

Yet aren't taken out of context and are basically his top 3 best feats.

and are disregarding feats more recent than that.

That weren't even real feats, as I pointed out. With Omega, you relied on a hyperbole narrative and the damage done to Thanos. Yet, any galaxy buster could do the exact same, and Genis survived an attack from him as well. The fact that Omega didn't have to use anywhere near his full power on Thanos..doesn't really help your case much. Now if he was stated to be stronger than Galactus, and he hit Thanos with his most powerful of attacks, then you may have something. As it is? Not even a feat as Omega has no feats himself that would put him even on Skyfather level. And even if he was, then he did nothing a Skyfather couldn't do.

The Beyonder thing? She was vulnerable and had a fragile state of mind. Thanos is a powerful TP and stated she was vulnerable. So..no. He did not actually take on something at the level you were claiming.

The thing with the cosmic cubes? Aside from posting zero scans, it is obvious they weren't hitting him with their best attacks, if it even happened, if they were even at full power. Even then it would basically be the only somewhat credible feat you have mentioned thus far, that contradicts all the other previous feats. That's if it happened in the way you claimed it did, and considering the fact that neither of the other incidents you brought up happened like you claimed they did? No offence; but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Whatever. Regardless, this is all off-topic. Don't bother replying, I've already provided enough stuff,

That has been taken out of context and the truth twisted to suit your argument.

and there's no reason to drag this out.

On that we can both agree on.

[Bullza]

Ehhh let's shift gears. So seeing as how Beerus and Goku can clash fists with enough force to threaten the Universe then what's it going to mean for when Goku punches Frieza right in his smug face in the next saga?

The Universe can't take the shockwave of a punch but Frieza can take the direct punch and keep fighting?

[Blackstripe]

Ehhh let's shift gears. So seeing as how Beerus and Goku can clash fists with enough force to threaten the Universe then what's it going to mean for when Goku punches Freeza right in his smug face in the next saga?

The Universe can't take the shockwave of a punch but Freeza can take the direct punch and keep fighting?

It means Freeza has Universal-level durability, correct. Considering how casually and effortlessly he pushed apart the Earth in even the more relatively subdued movies, I'm not too surprised.

What seems odd to me is that the God-tier Saiyans would still need to breath air. I mean, think about it. You have these Gods with the power to destroy the universe, but they need air? It just seems weird to me.

[irreality]

Maybe Red form SSG is more destabilizing than Blue Form SSG. Or maybe this is just a side effect of fighting Beerus.

What seems odd to me is that the God-tier Saiyans would still need to breath air. I mean, think about it. You have these Gods with the power to destroy the universe, but they need air? It just seems weird to me.

Strength and Ki don't affect the Krebs cycle.

[Sora Saiyan]

Ehhh let's shift gears. So seeing as how Beerus and Goku can clash fists with enough force to threaten the Universe then what's it going to mean for when Goku punches Freeza right in his smug face in the next saga?

The Universe can't take the shockwave of a punch but Freeza can take the direct punch and keep fighting?

Yep, Freeza become one tough fucker. Goku and Beerus are basically doing stuff like that now.

Kamiccolo do you actually think that DB characters are slower than thought with the recent revelations of Beerus moving at MFTL speeds, or him appearing behind a planet immediately after destroying a different planet? In Super I didn't even know the others could keep up much, as all it was showing from the others point of view most of the time was multiple shockwaves whilst Goku and Beerus weren't doing much in their scenes if I'm remembering right. they're definitely above the characters like Vegetto, Chou Gohan, SSJ3 Gotenks etc. in thought speed. Hell, if you get as good as Whis you don't need to think to fight.

[Kamiccolo9]

Ehhh let's shift gears. So seeing as how Beerus and Goku can clash fists with enough force to threaten the Universe then what's it going to mean for when Goku punches Freeza right in his smug face in the next saga?

The Universe can't take the shockwave of a punch but Freeza can take the direct punch and keep fighting?

Yep, Freeza become one tough fucker. Goku and Beerus are basically doing stuff like that now.

Kamiccolo do you actually think that DB characters are slower than thought with the recent revelations of Beerus moving at MFTL speeds, or him appearing behind a planet immediately after destroying a different planet? In Super I didn't even know the others could keep up much, as all it was showing from the others point of view most of the time was multiple shockwaves whilst Goku and Beerus weren't doing much in their scenes if I'm remembering right. they're definitely above the characters like Vegetto, Chou Gohan, SSJ3 Gotenks etc. in thought speed. Hell, if you get as good as Whis you don't need to think to fight.

I think that their speed is too vague and consistently contradictory to definitively say anything about it. You have Roshi and Krillin being too fast to see early on, yet the crowd follows SSJ Goten, Trunks, and 18 just fine. You have Goku "dodging" the Taiyo-Ken, but Piccolo being unable to dodge spit, despite Kaioshin having enough time between Dabura spitting and it hitting Piccolo to shout out a warning. You have Mr. Satan being able to follow the fight with Buu, and the entirety of the world being able to watch Goku vs Buu in their minds, with no indication that it's being "slowed down." But you also have the announcer at the Cell Games having a problem following Cell and Gohan/Goku, and Gohan not being able to keep track of a Saibaiman.

Nothing in the narrative says that they are faster than light. That has to be extrapolated from the data that we have using mathematical calculations that 99% if the people throwing them around are totally incapable of doing, and are just going off of what some guy on the Internet said. Artistic license and cinematic time, which are the typical answers to stuff like this, are being ignored (and oddly, this is the only franchise I've seen to do this. Essentially every other fanbase I've been a part of accepts that calculating feats from out of universe perception of in universe phenomenon is dumb) in order to make characters look better, while lower showings are dismissed with a "you're taking this too seriously." Huge mathematical calculations depicting the size of an explosion relative to the circumference of Jupiter are employed in order to determine destructive power are portrayed, and for some reason accepted, as fact, but any attempt to explain why such things wouldn't work using physics or other laws is met with "it's a cartoon and it doesn't follow science," yet we are supposed to take their math seriously, for some reason.

So, as far as "speed" in Dragon Ball goes, while an overeager fanbase starved of actual, legitimately quantifiable or quantified "feats," has failed to come up with a consistent level that can be generally accepted by everyone, it's safe to assume that they are "really fast." Any more or less than that has so many examples against it that it's fruitless to even try.

So, if I see a Dragon Ball character actually do something faster than thought or light, that has actual in-universe proof behind it, (not some guy pulling out a calculator every time Beerus coughs), then I'll give them that kind of credit. They haven't done that yet.

And honestly, given the franchise's penchant for shouting out what these characters are capable of doing every chance it gets, I think that it's a bit telling that not once have we gotten a "He's faster than light!" from anyone in the series. That seems like something they'd mention. Especially the narrator. That guy never shuts up.

[Sora Saiyan]

I see what you're saying Kamiccolo, but Beerus hopping to another planet is couple of seconds after destroying one would work out at FTL. Whis would logically work out at MFTL yet Beerus was only 20 seconds slower than him when going to some alien planet in Super episode 2.

I do disagree with characters or narrator commenting on a character being faster than light in DB, since commenting on speed is something they never do besides stuff like "I can't see them". DB is more to do with "I can destroy this", rather than I'm 2x the speed of sound, or 20,000x, or whatever, welll unless we're talking about the old funi dub. For speed, or even power in DB most of us still rely on feats rather than statements. I do believe the DB high tiers are FTL now, Super has given me a reason to believe it, and in comparison to what they have just shown in the last episode being FTL doesn't seem all that special.

DB is definitely full of inconsistencies for feats, most of the inconsistencies occurred in the Boo arc is something I've noticed. We just know that Goten and trunk are faster than most of the characters that appeared prior to them.

[Blackstripe]

I have read plenty of Superman books before, Kamiccolo, and I have to say that while Dragon Ball does have lots of inconsistent feats...the last fanbase that should say one, single word about that is Superman's. I mean, he might as well be the Big Blue King of inconsistent feats, particularly durability and speed feats.

How often does Supes get tagged by stuff that really should have ZERO chance of hitting him?

[Cody]

The Dragonball manga really isn't that contradictory in terms of feats. It's actually pretty consistent on feats. You can't really use the SSJ duo vs Android 18 as an example of a contradiction due to the fact that, prior to that, no one could even see Goten and Trunks. I think by that time the point was made that the audience just cannot see them when they are moving. It doesn't have to say again that the audience can't see them move as we saw that already during the Goten vs Trunks fight.

There are many examples of support them having FTL speed. Them reacting to blasts that can reach the core of the earth and high into space in a second for one, and scaling from when a person becomes a blur to the other. Which is why I see no problem in saying their high end characters are at least slightly FTL prior to BoG.

But it is true that the speed argument for DB characters is a big thing that not many agree on. But more and more people are coming to see the "light" as Super goes on. Such and Beerus and Whis's travel speed feats. Now travel =/= reaction speed unless it's a speedster doing the travelling as their form of travelling is physical, where else flying is not. However one thing to keep in mind is that the DB characters are consistently portrayed as having faster reaction/combat speed than they do flying speed. So from that we can extrapolate that Whis and Beerus, due to them flying at MFTL speeds to reach their destinations in the time frame that they did, would mean they(and in extension SSG Goku since he wasn't outright blitzed) are very likely to have MFTL reactions.

I wouldn't put them on Surfer, Wally, or Gladiators level of course. Tthey are either still statues to those 3 or, at best, turtles. But nevertheless, it is a nice level of speed to take into consideration.