Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

Nah it was the mouth blast from the unrestrained Beerus which badly hurt Goku didn't knock him out or anything. Whereas Beerus at 10% took SSJ2 Vegeta out with a poke.

So Base Goku and Vegeta stood up better to an attack that was at least 10 times more powerful than the one that took out SSJ2 Vegeta.

When did this happen? I don't recall Beerus ever firing a mouth blast at Goku or Vegeta.

[Helios518]

Nah it was the mouth blast from the unrestrained Beerus which badly hurt Goku didn't knock him out or anything. Whereas Beerus at 10% took SSJ2 Vegeta out with a poke.

So Base Goku and Vegeta stood up better to an attack that was at least 10 times more powerful than the one that took out SSJ2 Vegeta.

When did this happen? I don't recall Beerus ever firing a mouth blast at Goku or Vegeta.

The episode in which Goku started doing "training" with Vegeta aka changing Beerus's sheets.

[ekrolo2]

Nah it was the mouth blast from the unrestrained Beerus which badly hurt Goku didn't knock him out or anything. Whereas Beerus at 10% took SSJ2 Vegeta out with a poke.

So Base Goku and Vegeta stood up better to an attack that was at least 10 times more powerful than the one that took out SSJ2 Vegeta.

When did this happen? I don't recall Beerus ever firing a mouth blast at Goku or Vegeta.

The episode in which Goku started doing "training" with Vegeta aka changing Beerus's sheets.

Still, if Beerus wasn't holding back at all the way Vegeta words it, they'd probably be dead by getting thwacked around by him. Them being potentially 10 times stronger also just breaks everything with the 10% thing in mind.

Let's say Rageta was worth about 5% and we know Super Saiyan still raises your power by roughly the SEG multipliers as Zamasu says Goku's power increased dozens of times with SS2, meaning that Goku and Vegeta in their base forms are around half of Beerus' power and would be many, many times above him and Whis with even regular SS.

[Cipher]

Future Zamasu appears to be stronger than Present Zamasu. This is 17 years later after all, and Zamasu had room for improvement according to Goku.

He should be stronger but when these beings are supposed to be millions upon millions of years old you'd think 17 years would be insignificant.

Who's to say what seventeen years of active mortal-killing will do for you?

It's kind of unclear how strong Zamasu is supposed to be, though, as he's mostly just getting in potshots or making the situation difficult for Goku when he's fighting Black at the same time. His immortality makes it hard to judge as well, as he's capable of throwing himself at hits with pretty much complete abandon.

[Bullza]

I don't think Future Zamasu had killed anyone until Black showed up had he?

The first fight between Zamasu and Goku doesn't really tell us much anymore. He might not have actually been weaker than Goku after all so his strenght might not be much different from Future Zamasu.

Still he held up much better against SSJB Goku than SSJ2 Trunks held up against SSJB Vegeta so Zamasu is definitely stronger than anyone's SSJ2 anyway.

[GodVegetto91]

With Zamasu's immortality and Black's infinitely rising power, this Fusion is going to be OP as fuck!
Insanely haxed!

[ssbgoku]

When did this happen? I don't recall Beerus ever firing a mouth blast at Goku or Vegeta.

The episode in which Goku started doing "training" with Vegeta aka changing Beerus's sheets.

Still, if Beerus wasn't holding back at all the way Vegeta words it, they'd probably be dead by getting thwacked around by him. Them being potentially 10 times stronger also just breaks everything with the 10% thing in mind.

Let's say Rageta was worth about 5% and we know Super Saiyan still raises your power by roughly the SEG multipliers as Zamasu says Goku's power increased dozens of times with SS2, meaning that Goku and Vegeta in their base forms are around half of Beerus' power and would be many, many times above him and Whis with even regular SS.

Too be honest Rageta would be even less then 5%, just Final Flash of rageta would be only 5% or 4% with Rageta being just 1% at the lowest.

Even then:

Rageta - 1%
ss goku/Vegeta - 5%
ss2 goku/vegeta - 10%
ss3 goku/vegeta - 40%
ssb goku/vegeta - 60%

No matter what, Either 10% line was retconn or rather base goku form of sayians getting so strong, along with ss == ssg and also kaioken. Just this or that, there is no other way. I also overstimated beerus in this scalling. If we go by 6-10-15 scale, then:

whis - 15
beerus - 10
ssr goku black - 8.5
enraged ssb goku - 8
ssb goku/vegeta - 7.5
golden freeza - 7
ssg goku - 6
ss3 goku/vegeta
ss2 goku/vegeta
ss goku/vegeta
base goku/vegeta

[ekrolo2]

Too be honest Rageta would be even less then 5%, just Final Flash of rageta would be only 5% or 4% with Rageta being just 1% at the lowest.

Even then:

Rageta - 1%
ss goku/Vegeta - 5%
ss2 goku/vegeta - 10%
ss3 goku/vegeta - 40%
ssb goku/vegeta - 60%

No matter what, Either 10% line was retconn or rather base goku form of sayians getting so strong, along with ss == ssg and also kaioken. Just this or that, there is no other way. I also overstimated beerus in this scalling. If we go by 6-10-15 scale, then:

whis - 15
beerus - 10
ssr goku black - 8.5
enraged ssb goku - 8
ssb goku/vegeta - 7.5
golden freeza - 7
ssg goku - 6
ss3 goku/vegeta
ss2 goku/vegeta
ss goku/vegeta
base goku/vegeta

Rageta is at least 5% since Beerus needed to use a tenth of his power to beat him, if Vegeta was as low as 1%, he'd could just use 2% and stomp him that way. That means Vegeta's is anywhere between 5-8% of Beerus' power when he rages out. This one line breaks everything, unless KKX10 magically doesn't literally increase ones power by a factor of 10 anymore, EVERYONE is weaker than Vegeta was during his rage out even as late as episode 61.

[Sora Saiyan]

Too be honest Rageta would be even less then 5%, just Final Flash of rageta would be only 5% or 4% with Rageta being just 1% at the lowest.

Even then:

Rageta - 1%
ss goku/Vegeta - 5%
ss2 goku/vegeta - 10%
ss3 goku/vegeta - 40%
ssb goku/vegeta - 60%

No matter what, Either 10% line was retconn or rather base goku form of sayians getting so strong, along with ss == ssg and also kaioken. Just this or that, there is no other way. I also overstimated beerus in this scalling. If we go by 6-10-15 scale, then:

whis - 15
beerus - 10
ssr goku black - 8.5
enraged ssb goku - 8
ssb goku/vegeta - 7.5
golden freeza - 7
ssg goku - 6
ss3 goku/vegeta
ss2 goku/vegeta
ss goku/vegeta
base goku/vegeta

Rageta is at least 5% since Beerus needed to use a tenth of his power to beat him, if Vegeta was as low as 1%, he'd could just use 2% and stomp him that way. That means Vegeta's is anywhere between 5-8% of Beerus' power when he rages out. This one line breaks everything, unless KKX10 magically doesn't literally increase ones power by a factor of 10 anymore, EVERYONE is weaker than Vegeta was during his rage out even as late as episode 61.

So in regards to Super as a whole it makes a lot more sense for Vegeta to be like 1% Beerus or lower if kaioken is still meant to be a true multiplier, since it was clear that Godku was much stronger than Rageta.
I'd just say Beerus was using 10% of his power to test Vegeta, since Vegeta had a huge spike and his power might've continued to rise if he was the SSJG. IMO that makes much more sense than Rageta breaking everything in Super power wise.

Don't get me wrong, it's a stupid line that should've never been added, but I'd rather make sense out of it like that than try and pretend that Godku and basically everyone later was weaker without there being anything to truly hint at that.

[ekrolo2]

So in regards to Super as a whole it makes a lot more sense for Vegeta to be like 1% Beerus or lower if kaioken is still meant to be a true multiplier, since it was clear that Godku was much stronger than Rageta.
I'd just say Beerus was using 10% of his power to test Vegeta, since Vegeta had a huge spike and his power might've continued to rise if he was the SSJG. IMO that makes much more sense than Rageta breaking everything in Super power wise.

Don't get me wrong, it's a stupid line that should've never been added, but I'd rather make sense out of it like that than try and pretend that Godku and basically everyone later was weaker without there being anything to truly hint at that.

This is one time I REALLY wish the mistranslation was the truth

Back when that episode first came out, a lot of people thought Beerus meant 1% which would make a lot more sense instead of 10%.

[Bullza]

Perhaps when Beerus used 10% he stayed at that level of power throughout the fight with Super Saiyan God as well.

The Kaioken scene could probably just about fit if that was the case.

Beerus - 100
SSJB Goku Kaioken - 90
Beerus 10% - 10
SSJB - 9
SSJG - 6

[ekrolo2]

Perhaps when Beerus used 10% he stayed at that level of power throughout the fight with Super Saiyan God as well.

The Kaioken scene could probably just about fit if that was the case.

Beerus - 100
SSJB Goku Kaioken - 90
Beerus 10% - 10
SSJB - 9
SSJG - 6

That could work if the SEG multipliers weren't a thing in the series. We know Goku raised his power dozens of times over by turning on SS2 vs Zamasu and since the two base theory is pretty much dead at this point, there's really no qay to renconcile this 10% business with SSBKK and the SEG multipliers.

[TheMikado]

Perhaps when Beerus used 10% he stayed at that level of power throughout the fight with Super Saiyan God as well.

The Kaioken scene could probably just about fit if that was the case.

Beerus - 100
SSJB Goku Kaioken - 90
Beerus 10% - 10
SSJB - 9
SSJG - 6

That could work if the SEG multipliers weren't a thing in the series. We know Goku raised his power dozens of times over by turning on SS2 vs Zamasu and since the two base theory is pretty much dead at this point, there's really no qay to renconcile this 10% business with SSBKK and the SEG multipliers.

Pretty much... the anime has no plausible means of reconciliation with all the information given. At this point it's better to completely give up... just my two cents.

[Bullza]

That could work if the SEG multipliers weren't a thing in the series. We know Goku raised his power dozens of times over by turning on SS2 vs Zamasu and since the two base theory is pretty much dead at this point, there's really no qay to renconcile this 10% business with SSBKK and the SEG multipliers.

I'm still sticking with the small gap theory. It's the only way any of this even begins to work. If the comment about him getting tens of times stronger wasn't wrong then the 10% comment is wrong, so either way one of them is wrong but a lot points to the gaps not being too big.

As I mentioned once before, Black was about equal to SSJ (could have been SSJ2) Goku when they fought and Trunks said that Black was a little stronger in the future where he was also a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Which all means that SSJ3 Goku is also only a little stronger than SSJ/2 Goku.

SSJ2 Trunks was around SSJ2 Goku's strenght, he got one shotted by SSJ3 Goku. He seemed to train with Vegeta for like a day or two and now he's able to hang in there with SSJB level opponents.

The whole thing with Base Goku being as strong as SSJG doesn't work either because it'd mean a bunch of these characters are dozens of times stronger than SSJG. Beerus is hundreds or even thousands of times as strong as SSJG making the entire Battle of Gods saga redundant. Them withstanding his unrestrained attacks makes no sense, Base Goku fighting Beerus and hanging in there when he's starting to get serious makes no sense etc.

None of it works.

So either Zamasu's comment referred to him going from a suppressed Base form to a powered up SSJ2 was why he was tens of times stronger...or it was mistake.

[DBZ Macky]

At this point, the only in-universe explanation is:
Beerus is a liar.

[ssbgoku]

Perhaps when Beerus used 10% he stayed at that level of power throughout the fight with Super Saiyan God as well.

The Kaioken scene could probably just about fit if that was the case.

Beerus - 100
SSJB Goku Kaioken - 90
Beerus 10% - 10
SSJB - 9
SSJG - 6

I prefer rather to call Kaioken bullshit and Toei just pulling shit out his ass again. Until I see Kaioken brought back again or reffered I will just forget it happened.
Everything else fits then

[Bullza]

Well if it's just going to be a one time only thing then it'd be just as easy to say that at that point Goku really had far surpassed Beerus.

[Marlowe89]

Well if it's just going to be a one time only thing then it'd be just as easy to say that at that point Goku really had far surpassed Beerus.

That was my original belief, given that Beerus and Champa both had "Oh shit" moments on different occasions when Goku powered up in that state.

Doesn't really matter at this point though, I sincerely doubt that we'll ever see SSB Kaioken again. It was nothing more than a one-time fanservice gift from Toei.

[brett wheeler]

Well if it's just going to be a one time only thing then it'd be just as easy to say that at that point Goku really had far surpassed Beerus.

thats what I believe, but then you have to have hit loose his improvement after the battle cause he kept up with ssbkk goku was afraid of champa

[TheMikado]

Well if it's just going to be a one time only thing then it'd be just as easy to say that at that point Goku really had far surpassed Beerus.

thats what I believe, but then you have to have hit loose his improvement after the battle cause he kept up with ssbkk goku was afraid of champa

That's a darn good point