Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[DanielSSJ]

*snip*

The numbers 800 and 3,000 are both commonly used in Japanese as a symbolic way of saying "an enormous amount", sorta like how the number 40 is used in the Bible (A flood lasting 40 days and 40 night). So the joke is that Toriyama is saying that they're both really strong, in a roundabout way.
Goku's "adding one to one thousand" comparison is just there to illustrate that fusing with Mr. Satan probably won't do much to improve his power and probably has next to nothing to do with Bobbidi's Kiri system, especially he and Dabra were in another room when they dispensed that information.

If you want to take them literally to build on your power levels, that's perfectly fine (hell, I did something similar when I cranked out the number for Goku's and Mr. Satan's hypothetical fusion), but I highly doubt that Toriyama really gave much thought to either set of numbers, and he almost definitely did not intend for them to be connected. Toriyama does not seem to be the type to make lists to compare certain characters on a mathematical scale, and has gone on record for saying that he has changed his mind on who is stronger than who within story arcs. The Battle of Gods 6/10/15 scale was probably something Toriyama came up with on the spot, and he seems to have forgotten it or has decided to ignore it, since he has stated that Goku and Vegeta won't be surpassing Beerus anytime soon.

Anyways, aside from the small gap between Goku's base and Super Saiyan forms, the numbers are pretty decent. If it were me, I'd stick with the SEG Super Saiyan boosts, but it works for the most part.

[RandomGuy96]

Another random Super-related note: the Super manga depicts SS2 Future Trunks as requiring Kaioshin's aid to defeat Dabra and being unable to simply dispatch him in one blow, this being after he explicitly powered up a lot training with the Z-sword. As the Super manga is closely supervised and borderline co-written by Toriyama, I think this should act as more or less concrete confirmation that Dabra's intended level is SS2-tier (as stated in Daizenshuu 7).

[Kaboom]

Ooooor that Trunks simply wasn't as strong as Gohan yet. With how meticulously accurate Toyotaro is with distinguishing SS1 from SS2 (mainly the sparks, of course), I doubt he'd make the mistake of assuming Gohan used the latter against Dabra in the original manga. Training with the Z-Sword for "arm strength" isn't going to guarantee Trunks was on any exact power level, and the broader placement for Dabra where a Super Saiyan 1 struggles against him but a Super Saiyan 2 beats him is still preserved.

[RandomGuy96]

Ooooor that Trunks simply wasn't as strong as Gohan yet.

Trunks flat-out says he's far stronger than he was before Kaioshin arrived, which was 3+ years of training after the Cell Games, where he wasn't that much weaker than Goku. There's basically no reasonable way for him to be incredibly weaker than Gohan at the time.

With how meticulously accurate Toyotaro is with distinguishing SS1 from SS2 (mainly the sparks, of course), I doubt he'd make the mistake of assuming Gohan used the latter against Dabra in the original manga.

Your error is assuming that it was a mistake.

Training with the Z-Sword for "arm strength" isn't going to guarantee Trunks was on any exact power level,

Trunks disagrees, stating that training with the Z-sword increased his power massively.

[Kaboom]

I'm not wasting time with the "SS1 or SS2" non-debate.

Anyhoo, I don't see why Trunks couldn't have had a big power boost from his training under Kaioshin and still end up a little weaker than Gohan at the time, especially if that was his only big, one-time training boost. I didn't say that the training didn't make him a lot stronger, just that it doesn't automatically place him on any specific level.

Plus, while I personally usually consider Dabra a little weaker than SS1 Gohan (based on what the Dragon Books say), it's possible Toyotaro did indeed see it differently, and considers Dabra a bit stronger than Gohan instead. Which would in turn leave him giving Trunks an even harder time. Something like this...

SS Goku (Cell Games): 30
SS Gohan (Cell Games): 35
-- SS2: 70
Trunks (Cell Games): 15
-- Before Kaioshin training: 20
-- After Kaioshin training: 30
-- SS2: 60
-- SS2 (vs Goku): 80+
Dabra: 40

Trunks' improvement would be slower before and after his training under Kaioshin. Where before it he wouldn't have improved very much, but after (and now with SS2 to work with) he would push past Gohan and figure out that "super-charged quasi-SS3 SS2" thing he used against Goku.

[ahill1]

Trunks flat-out says he's far stronger than he was before Kaioshin arrived, which was 3+ years of training after the Cell Games, where he wasn't that much weaker than Goku. There's basically no reasonable way for him to be incredibly weaker than Gohan at the time.

Trunks could be way stronger than he was against the Cell Juniors and yet be no match against Dabura in SSJ. Here's a numerical example of how this could work:

Trunks SSJ (Cell Games) : 64
~post 3 years : 75
~post sword training : 96
Goku SSJ (Cell Games) : 100
Dabura : 115
Gohan SSJ (Cell Games) : 140

[Khin]

Probably just Beerus bragging. I don't recall any actual contradictions to it, and the removal of the KK nonsense seems to be an attempt to keep it in place and in line with the movies.

Not just Beerus' line. There's also this from chapter 16 when Goku introduced Trunks to Beerus and Whis.



At this point it really seems that 6-10-15 scaling was already changed by Toriyama. The 70% statement was absent both anime and manga, and there's several implications across both products that Beerus is still way ahead of Goku and Vegeta.

It's probably back then, Toriyama didn't thought he would create more stories, and such he put Beerus not much ahead of Goku and Vegeta. He probably intended for Beerus to stay ahead for a few more arcs, but at the same time having Goku and Vegeta improving. Even after writing the Trunks Arc, he said he still have no plan for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis. It really just seems that he wants him to be ahead to them for a awhile.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, the 6/10/15 scale is just fine for the movies it originated from, but it's pretty obviously been ditched for Super and its more "loose" writing.

If I was going to reconcile both versions somehow, either as part of a rewrite or just for kicks... I'd make it so that Goku's temporary red-haired strength was the result of all six Saiyans' combined power (the bulk of it Gohan's, probably) being converted to godly ki, whereas he and Vegeta are now only converting their own power when they use Super Saiyan Blue. So Goku was a 6 against Beerus' 10 back then, but now he and Vegeta with SSB are each only like a 1.

[RandomGuy96]

Yeah, the 6/10/15 scale is just fine for the movies it originated from, but it's pretty obviously been ditched for Super and its more "loose" writing.

If I was going to reconcile both versions somehow, either as part of a rewrite or just for kicks... I'd make it so that Goku's temporary red-haired strength was the result of all six Saiyans' combined power (the bulk of it Gohan's, probably) being converted to godly ki, whereas he and Vegeta are now only converting their own power when they use Super Saiyan Blue. So Goku was a 6 against Beerus' 10 back then, but now he and Vegeta with SSB are each only like a 1.

But FNF still contains that statement that Goku and Vegeta fighting together could possibly match Beerus, so that wasn't even the intention of how they were supposed to stack up to Beerus in relative strengths.

Probably just Beerus bragging. I don't recall any actual contradictions to it, and the removal of the KK nonsense seems to be an attempt to keep it in place and in line with the movies.

Not just Beerus' line. There's also this from chapter 16 when Goku introduced Trunks to Beerus and Whis.

At this point it really seems that 6-10-15 scaling was already changed by Toriyama. The 70% statement was absent both anime and manga, and there's several implications across both products that Beerus is still way ahead of Goku and Vegeta.

It's probably back then, Toriyama didn't thought he would create more stories, and such he put Beerus not much ahead of Goku and Vegeta. He probably intended for Beerus to stay ahead for a few more arcs, but at the same time having Goku and Vegeta improving. Even after writing the Trunks Arc, he said he still have no plan for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis. It really just seems that he wants him to be ahead to them for a awhile.

He's speaking about both Beerus and Whis, not just Beerus. A 10 and a 15 are indeed "waaaay" stronger than two 7s. Heck, it would even fit if he was just comparing himself to Beerus. Or would you not define e.g. Buutenks as way stronger than Ultimate Gohan? Or Vegeta at the beginning of the Namek arc as way stronger than Cui?

Trunks flat-out says he's far stronger than he was before Kaioshin arrived, which was 3+ years of training after the Cell Games, where he wasn't that much weaker than Goku. There's basically no reasonable way for him to be incredibly weaker than Gohan at the time.

Trunks could be way stronger than he was against the Cell Juniors and yet be no match against Dabura in SSJ. Here's a numerical example of how this could work:

Trunks SSJ (Cell Games) : 64
~post 3 years : 75
~post sword training : 96
Goku SSJ (Cell Games) : 100
Dabura : 115
Gohan SSJ (Cell Games) : 140

Obvious problem: if this was the case Dabra would've been wasted by SS2 Trunks in one blow. This did not happen. In fact Kaioshin needed to paralyze Dabra.

[Kaboom]

But FNF still contains that statement that Goku and Vegeta fighting together could possibly match Beerus, so that wasn't even the intention of how they were supposed to stack up to Beerus in relative strengths.

I really just meant combining both general concepts, not actually keeping and fitting together everything.

[RandomGuy96]

But FNF still contains that statement that Goku and Vegeta fighting together could possibly match Beerus, so that wasn't even the intention of how they were supposed to stack up to Beerus in relative strengths.

I really just meant combining both general concepts, not actually keeping and fitting together every line from both already-existent stories.

Ah, alright.

How do you approach Super in this regard anyway? I was thinking about basically treating the Toriyama-approved manga and maybe the movies as "canon", with the anime being an adaptation with "filler" like the Commeson stuff.

[Kaboom]

How do you approach Super in this regard anyway?

Short answer... I don't. For the most part it's really ended up a lot like GT where I'd much rather speculate about how it all could make sense with some changes, rather than give myself a headache trying to force the story as-is to make sense somehow.

[ahill1]

Obvious problem: if this was the case Dabra would've been wasted by SS2 Trunks in one blow. This did not happen. In fact Kaioshin needed to paralyze Dabra.

One-shot gaps aren't linear. 50% Freeza (after Goku's KMHMH) also couldn't one shot a tired base Goku, who could even get up on his feet after this.

I also don't think Kaioshin needed to paralyze Dabura. Trunks, after becoming a SSJ2, landed a bunch of punches and kicked him twice, to which Dabura resorted to his spear. Kaioshin paralyzing Dabura was probably just him wanting to make things simpler to Trunks (showing his cautious nature again) IMO.

[Khin]

He's speaking about both Beerus and Whis, not just Beerus. A 10 and a 15 are indeed "waaaay" stronger than two 7s. Heck, it would even fit if he was just comparing himself to Beerus. Or would you not define e.g. Buutenks as way stronger than Ultimate Gohan? Or Vegeta at the beginning of the Namek arc as way stronger than Cui?

I thought of that as well. But my point is that Beerus' line is not just the only implication that the 6-10-15 statement was changed, there's that panel I posted too. As well as some panels showing Goku being scared of Beerus.

In the anime, even before the Kaio-ken stuff. There's already some implications that Toriyama's old scaling was changed. Like the how the 70% line was ditched. And while in the movie Whis said that if Goku and Vegeta were to team up they could rival Beerus, this was removed in Super. Instead, we got Beerus challenging Goku for a rematch, with Goku declining because Beerus is still way stronger than him.

[Rubens]

So, here's my take on Dabra's power:

First he is told to be around Cell's power (most likely the Perfect Cell that fought Goku and not when he regenerated and came back stronger) and Gohan is said to be weaker than he was back at the Cell games. During the fight, Dabra didn't seem to be struggling, at least in the manga, while Gohan was putting a lot of effort to keep up with the fight. Even when Dabra was distracted because of Vegeta (which triggers Dabra's idea to "majinize" the latter), he was able to handle Gohan. The conclusion is that SSj Gohan probably could not have beaten Dabra if the fight went on. In fact, Dabra was expecting to face either Goku or Vegeta and was rather surprised when Gohan challenged him.

Secondly, Dabra is able to use magic to enhance his attacks. Since magic can't be sensed, a magic user is trickier to approach; even Goku admits that that capability makes Dabra thougher than he imagined. Again, it's possible that magic allows Dabra to take on stronger opponents.

Finally, while it's debatable whether Vegeta could turn ssj2 at this point or not, at the very least Goku could and according to Vegeta, Goku had surpassed "that wall" - presumably, the limit a ssj can only reach until the ssj2 transformation unlocks new heights. The training Trunks had with the z-sword possibly brought him close to this wall Vegeta mentioned and when he became a "fresh" ssj2 (most likely weaker than Goku has ssj2, since he had trained in the meantime), that was still not enough to one shot Dabra but ofcourse, more than enough to easily defeat him, just as either Goku, Gohan or (an hypothetical) Vegeta as ssj2 would.

My conclusion is that Dabra's raw power is equivalent to Cell, although he can use magic to boost him to somewhat a "mid-tier" challenger. Additionally, over 10 years have passed since the original arc in Trunks's timeline so it's possible, but speculative, that future Dabra could be stronger comparatively to his counterpart in the present timeline.

Please don't crucify me.

[DanielSSJ]

So, here's my take on Dabra's power:

First he is told to be around Cell's power (most likely the Perfect Cell that fought Goku and not when he regenerated and came back stronger) and Gohan is said to be weaker than he was back at the Cell games. During the fight, Dabra didn't seem to be struggling, at least in the manga, while Gohan was putting a lot of effort to keep up with the fight. Even when Dabra was distracted because of Vegeta (which triggers Dabra's idea to "majinize" the latter), he was able to handle Gohan. The conclusion is that SSj Gohan probably could not have beaten Dabra if the fight went on. In fact, Dabra was expecting to face either Goku or Vegeta and was rather surprised when Gohan challenged him.

Secondly, Dabra is able to use magic to enhance his attacks. Since magic can't be sensed, a magic user is trickier to approach; even Goku admits that that capability makes Dabra thougher than he imagined. Again, it's possible that magic allows Dabra to take on stronger opponents.

Finally, while it's debatable whether Vegeta could turn ssj2 at this point or not, at the very least Goku could and according to Vegeta, Goku had surpassed "that wall" - presumably, the limit a ssj can only reach until the ssj2 transformation unlocks new heights. The training Trunks had with the z-sword possibly brought him close to this wall Vegeta mentioned and when he became a "fresh" ssj2 (most likely weaker than Goku has ssj2, since he had trained in the meantime), that was still not enough to one shot Dabra but ofcourse, more than enough to easily defeat him, just as either Goku, Gohan or (an hypothetical) Vegeta as ssj2 would.

My conclusion is that Dabra's raw power is equivalent to Cell, although he can use magic to boost him to somewhat a "mid-tier" challenger. Additionally, over 10 years have passed since the original arc in Trunks's timeline so it's possible, but speculative, that future Dabra could be stronger comparatively to his counterpart in the present timeline.

Please don't crucify me.

Not sure how much credit we should give to this source, but the Dragon Book's episode summary states that Gohan was actually superior to Dabra in raw strength, but his skills were rusty enough to leave him at a disadvantage. Of course the anime also makes it seem like Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2, which he clearly wasn't in the manga, so who knows?

[Kaboom]

Hey, maybe the truth lies somewhere in-between both versions... In the manga, where Gohan's only SS1, Dabra is possibly stronger than him. But in the anime, where they made Gohan an SS2, he's the stronger one but still struggles because of his rusty skills. Then Dabra's strength is the same in either version.

[Dr. Gero]

So, after finishing the manga, I would like to see your fellows input in two situations in order to complete my battle power list:

1- How strong was Piccolo back in the fight against Android #20 (Dr. Gero)?
2- Did Gohan receive a rage boost on top of his SSJ2 at the Cell Games?

I would like if you also come up with an explanation for these questions.

[Kaboom]

1- How strong was Piccolo back in the fight against Android #20 (Dr. Gero)?
2- Did Gohan receive a rage boost on top of his SSJ2 at the Cell Games?

1. Piccolo's most likely at least as strong or a little stronger than SS Goku and Trunks were 3 years prior. He had no qualms about fighting the Androids even if he didn't expect to beat them on his own, and he was indirectly compared to a Super Saiyan by Kuririn. Plus, the Son of Katatz supposedly split his power in half by expelling his evil way back when, so if Kami and Piccolo's re-merger reversed that, then it probably doubled Piccolo's power. That would neatly take it from being somewhat behind the Super Saiyans at the time to significantly ahead of them and on-par with the Androids.

2. Probably, but I'd say only during the very last moment of the Kamehameha clash with Cell. That's been labeled as his greatest power (from that era, at least) in several sources. Gohan's "rage boosts" have always been quick, fleeting things, and I don't see why he'd somehow sustain one in this one specific case and no other time. I think his burst of anger was what let him break up into Super Saiyan 2, but after that he was reaping the same rough 2x boost as anyone else.

[Dr. Gero]

2. Probably, but I'd say only during the very last moment of the Kamehameha clash with Cell. That's been labeled as his greatest power (from that era, at least) in several sources. Gohan's "rage boosts" have always been quick, fleeting things, and I don't see why he'd somehow sustain one in this one specific case and no other time. I think his burst of anger was what let him break up into Super Saiyan 2, but after that he was reaping the same rough 2x boost as anyone else.

Thanks for the input! Regarding the rage boost, do you think the power Gohan used in the final kamehameha (his rage boost) was the one used as a measuring stick for the warriors in the Majin Boo's saga? For example, when Vegeta said teen Gohan was far weaker than kid Gohan, was he referring to the power kid Gohan used in the kamehameha, his greatest power?

And one last question, how about Super Perfect Cell? Is he close to ssj2 kid Gohan? I remember he saying he had powered up like Gohan and felt confident this time.