Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Even if SSJBKKx10 Goku was working at 15% (possibly even 12.5%) efficiency he would still have one-shoted a SSJB tier character before he could blink.

Also let's say SSJB Goku was 50% of his full SSJB power before he used KK (1.5x) then when he did use it that would make him 75% of his full SSJB but somehow that blitzed Hit despite Hit earlier was just keeping track of a normal full power SSJB character just fine.

Too be honest about just gap power between characters it already happened in dbz and none called it bullshit or I didn't hear it... I mean Great Ape Vegeta vs goku in Saiyan saga. If we go by simple pl numbers then vegeta was 180 000 against goku 32 000 just at one point... Also bringing kaioken back,what about kkx4 goku vs vegeta. It was gap of 14 000, almost 50% !, and Vegeta not just survived but also managed to attack again. What were the reasons then ?

Simply, goku got tired out and lost a bit of power before he unleashed kaioken x3 and more. If kkx2 goku had 16k pl, then after disabling it, affter effects and pressure on body would drop goku from 8000(base) pl to 6000-6500, which in turn kkx3 goku made with 18-19500 pl, then he used kkx4 goku to unleash even more power making him less then 24 000. Same with Vegeta dropping in power due to making false moon and being tired out after battle dropping from 18 000 to 4 000(false moon + being hit by kkx4 kamehameha) then Great ape vegeta being 40 k or bit less.

Hit's expectional fighting style and time skip ability make it even more possible as assumption.

IN short: While goku got weaker from fighting and using kaioken, hit also was getting weaker but in strength however at much slower rate, that why it looked like that.

SSJBKK Goku was blitzing Hit and later he went SSJBKKx10 and was later getting worked up by Hit. IDK man, there's two ways you could go about this Hit's improvements wasn't just the improving his Time-Skip or you could say that they gotten so weak (but Hit got weaker at a slower rate) that SSJBKKx10 is around the same strength as normal SSJB (despite the manga and anime has it that Goku is 10x stronger than Vegeta for some reason), one of these is definitely splitting hairs and it's not the former.

Watching the anime again, the subs seems to imply the "improvement" applied to everything like saiyans. This included his ability of time skip.

[buutenks]

If only someone would make a comparison between ssg and any ssj form of Goku in universe, like hey your ssj1 is as strong as ssg or ssg was way stronger. Things would be much clearer. But then maybe i am asking to much.

From the anime the only sure thing we know is that base form is definitely above ssj3 Gotenks and ssj blue is definitely above ssg.

But maybe, since besides ssj blue, no other form was mentioned of surpassing ssg, then perhaps that is a clear indication that they are all below it. Especially since king kai only says Goku has surpassed ssg or something like that after he went ssj blue. When he battled Freeza in base, neither the narrator nor King Kai made any mention of his base surpassing ssg.

So, basically id say base, ssj1-3 all below ssg and ssj blue at ssg level.

And i think this also goes hand in hand with the manga, except in the anime base and ssj1-3 r stronger, but still below ssg, like the manga.

So, Black Rose,Future Zamasu and ssj blue Goku/Vegeta are ssg level, ssj2 Trunks is below that, but due to the rage boost in ep 57, he was able to fight against ssg level opponents and he hits ssg level with this new transformation of his.

That is my headcanon anyways.

As for kkx10 and Beerus, i think it is just there for the coolness factor. Tho u can easily say Beerus is simply far far stronger and it wouldnt really clash with what i wrote above.

[ekrolo2]

The anime in general doesn't take power gaps as seriously as the manga does. Look at base Goku/Trunks/Vegeta vs Artificial Humans #13/#14/#15, base Goku vs SS Broli, base Goku vs Paikuhan, GT base Gohan vs GT SS Goten, SS Goku vs Super #17, or more recently, SS2 Trunks vs SSR Black, and SSB Goku vs Future Zamasu.

Pretty much, in the anime, even a gap as low as 10% is shown to let you stomp someone like when a tiny gap of 2000 let Vegeta still be leagues above Goku in their first fight or how a similar gap let Vegeta murder Dodoria with no issue.

[Bullza]

If only someone would make a comparison between ssg and any ssj form of Goku in universe, like hey your ssj1 is as strong as ssg or ssg was way stronger.

The only thing we've had that's anything like that was Goku saying that Super Saiyan Blue was the Super Saiyan form of one who had the power of a Super Saiyan God which would mean that Base would be equal to Super Saiyan God.

Which is probably the best fit because things outside the anime point to that exact thing.

[Marlowe89]

The only thing we've had that's anything like that was Goku saying that Super Saiyan Blue was the Super Saiyan form of one who had the power of a Super Saiyan God which would mean that Base would be equal to Super Saiyan God.

Not necessarily - we don't really know what "power" means in this context. By saying "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God", Goku could have simply meant that he was using SSG's specific kind of power (which is God ki) in base, not necessarily that his base form was outright equal to Super Saiyan God in strength. The precise linguistic semantics of that sentence are still kind of vague and can be interpreted in multiple ways.

So, basically id say base, ssj1-3 all below ssg and ssj blue at ssg level.

And i think this also goes hand in hand with the manga, except in the anime base and ssj1-3 r stronger, but still below ssg, like the manga.

I think that's what the anime is ultimately getting at. Goku and Vegeta are only ever said to have the "power of a god" in-dialogue when they use SSB, and the fact that Piccolo, Cabba, Magetta, Frost and base Trunks can even approach base Goku at all makes me seriously doubt that Goku fights in the same tier as SSG without first transforming into SSB. Suggesting otherwise at this point is a bit ridiculous. Whis' training in the anime has also explicitly shown Goku and Vegeta switching to God ki in base on two separate occasions, but I find it unlikely that they ever use it in combat unless they're going Blue - at most, perhaps these "base God ki" states were used against final form Freeza, but that doesn't necessarily need to be the case either.

Really, if we just ignore all these debates concerning the BoG arc for a second, we can see that the anime's power scaling in the current arc isn't too dissimilar from the manga's. IMO it's all pretty straightforward, with the power levels going from base (without God ki) to SS-SS3 to "SbG" to SSG and finally to SSB. The forms using normal ki consist of base and then Super Saiyan, while the God ki forms consist of a largely unused base state and then Super Saiyan Blue. People are just overcomplicating it.

[Bullza]

Yeah but the Resurrection F manga did imply that he was supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan God. Yeah I know it's the manga but it's tiresome to think that each and every version is completely different to that extent.

He's gotta be as strong as Super Saiyan God in Base or he'd never have been able to destroy Beerus' blast and he'd have died upon being mouth blasted by Beerus or being punched in the face.

Even in this saga Gowasu compared Super Saiyan 2 Goku to a God of Destruction.

[Marlowe89]

Yeah but the Resurrection F manga did imply that he was supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan God.

No, not quite. The Resurrection F manga (which isn't the Super manga, by the way) shows Goku momentarily boosting his power to a level similar to SSG in one of his punches, which appears to surprise Whis, which implies that his base isn't constantly at that level. It would seem to me that there's a marked difference between a Goku who switches to God ki and a Goku who uses regular ki.

He's gotta be as strong as Super Saiyan God in Base or he'd never have been able to destroy Beerus' blast and he'd have died upon being mouth blasted by Beerus or being punched in the face.

In the anime, I recall him being in Super Saiyan for the remainder of his battle against Beerus, not base. In the film, he actually transformed back into Super Saiyan God to destroy Beerus' blast which explicitly suggests that his base state wasn't on that level even after absorbing its power.

The "mouth blast" scene was a vague gag, and I don't remember Gowasu ever comparing SS2 Goku to a God of Destruction in regards to their power - it wouldn't be true anyway, because we know Beerus is far beyond that level.

[Zamasu55]

This is what I think since what we've seen so far:

Omni King.
The Great Priest.
Whis/Vados.
Beerus/Champa.

These are the strongest characters of the show.

Hit (max power).
SsjB Kkx10 Goku.
SsjR Black Goku.
Future Zamasu.
SsjB Goku (angry, Black Goku saga).
Black Goku (base form).
Hit (first improvement).
SsjB Goku (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga)/SsjB Goku (Universal tournament saga)/SsjB Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Copy-Vegeta/SsjB Vegeta (Universal tournament saga).
Golden Frieza.
SsjB Goku (ROF saga), SsjB Vegeta (ROF saga).
SsjG Goku.
Ssj2 Future Trunks (post training).
Hit (base power).
Beyond God Goku (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga), Beyond God Goku (Universal tournament saga)/Beyond God Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Copy-Vegeta, Beyond God Vegeta (Universal tournament saga).
Beyond God Goku (ROF saga), Beyond God Vegeta (ROF saga), Final form Frieza (ROF saga).

I think this is pretty much correct. One thing: Black Goku (base form) was shown to be stronger than SsjB Vegeta in episode 56.

Black Goku (against Future Trunks and Goku)/Ssj3 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Future Trunks.
Zamasu.
Ssj Goku (Universal Tournament)/Ssj Vegeta (Universal Tournament)/Magetta.
Ssj Future Trunks.
Ssj Cabba.
Final form Frost.
First form Frieza (ROF saga).
Ultimate Gohan (BOG saga)/Ssj Gohan (ROF saga).
Ssj3 Gotenks
Ssj Gotenks.
Ginyu.
Mr. Buu.
Base Gohan (ROF saga)/Tagoma (post training).
Base Goku (Universal tournament)/Base Vegeta (Universal tournament)/Assault form Frost.
Base Future Trunks.
First form Frost/Base Cabba.

I think it's okay.

[buutenks]

This is what I think since what we've seen so far:

Omni King.
The Great Priest.
Whis/Vados.
Beerus/Champa.

These are the strongest characters of the show.

Hit (max power).
SsjB Kkx10 Goku.
SsjR Black Goku.
Future Zamasu.
SsjB Goku (angry, Black Goku saga).
Black Goku (base form).
Hit (first improvement).
SsjB Goku (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga)/SsjB Goku (Universal tournament saga)/SsjB Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Copy-Vegeta/SsjB Vegeta (Universal tournament saga).
Golden Frieza.
SsjB Goku (ROF saga), SsjB Vegeta (ROF saga).
SsjG Goku.
Ssj2 Future Trunks (post training).
Hit (base power).
Beyond God Goku (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga), Beyond God Goku (Universal tournament saga)/Beyond God Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Copy-Vegeta, Beyond God Vegeta (Universal tournament saga).
Beyond God Goku (ROF saga), Beyond God Vegeta (ROF saga), Final form Frieza (ROF saga).

I think this is pretty much correct. One thing: Black Goku (base form) was shown to be stronger than SsjB Vegeta in episode 56.

Black Goku (against Future Trunks and Goku)/Ssj3 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Future Trunks.
Zamasu.
Ssj Goku (Universal Tournament), Ssj Vegeta (Universal Tournament).
Ssj Future Trunks.
Ssj Cabba.
Final form Frost.
First form Frieza (ROF saga).
Mystic Gohan (BOG saga)/ Ssj Gohan (ROF saga).
Ssj3 Gotenks
Ssj Gotenks.
Ginyu.
Mr. Buu.
Magetta.
Base Gohan (ROF saga)/Tagoma (post training).
Base Goku (Universal tournament), Base Vegeta (Universal tournament)/Assault form Frost.
Base Future Trunks.
First form Frost/Base Cabba.

I think it's okay.

Could work. Tho Magetta should be higher since he basically was equal to ssj Vegeta.

[Zamasu55]

This is what I think since what we've seen so far:

Omni King.
The Great Priest.
Whis/Vados.
Beerus/Champa.

These are the strongest characters of the show.

Hit (max power).
SsjB Kkx10 Goku.
SsjR Black Goku.
Future Zamasu.
SsjB Goku (angry, Black Goku saga).
Black Goku (base form).
Hit (first improvement).
SsjB Goku (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga)/SsjB Goku (Universal tournament saga)/SsjB Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Copy-Vegeta/SsjB Vegeta (Universal tournament saga).
Golden Frieza.
SsjB Goku (ROF saga), SsjB Vegeta (ROF saga).
SsjG Goku.
Ssj2 Future Trunks (post training).
Hit (base power).
Beyond God Goku (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga), Beyond God Goku (Universal tournament saga)/Beyond God Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Copy-Vegeta, Beyond God Vegeta (Universal tournament saga).
Beyond God Goku (ROF saga), Beyond God Vegeta (ROF saga), Final form Frieza (ROF saga).

I think this is pretty much correct. One thing: Black Goku (base form) was shown to be stronger than SsjB Vegeta in episode 56.

Black Goku (against Future Trunks and Goku)/Ssj3 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Future Trunks.
Zamasu.
Ssj Goku (Universal Tournament), Ssj Vegeta (Universal Tournament).
Ssj Future Trunks.
Ssj Cabba.
Final form Frost.
First form Frieza (ROF saga).
Mystic Gohan (BOG saga)/ Ssj Gohan (ROF saga).
Ssj3 Gotenks
Ssj Gotenks.
Ginyu.
Mr. Buu.
Magetta.
Base Gohan (ROF saga)/Tagoma (post training).
Base Goku (Universal tournament), Base Vegeta (Universal tournament)/Assault form Frost.
Base Future Trunks.
First form Frost/Base Cabba.

I think it's okay.

Could work. Tho Magetta should be higher since he basically was equal to ssj Vegeta.

You're right.

[ssbgoku]

Just reffering to Hit vs goku tournament battle in anime:

kkx10 ssb goku(kaioken wearing him down and pushing body too much) - 5(0.5x10)
hit last improvement - 3.5
kkx2 ssb goku - 3
beaten up ssb goku(before kaioken) - 1.5
100% ssb goku - 3
hit improvement(after taking beating up) - 2.5
100% fp hit - 2
initial ssb goku - 1
initial hit -1

This is based on Goku's use of kaioken in Saiyan saga arc, where he was new to kaioken and keep dropping power fast while fighting vegeta.

Also beerus's reaction can be easily intepreted as, damn if he is going to use it from get go against me I am good as dead, but If I attack him before he does that, he has no chance of wining, also it requires time and keep making him weaker. Also this technique is far from perfect. Lastly Goku wouldn't use it until everything else failed. Whis is right, I can beat him down. I am sure champa thinks same

[Helios518]

Just reffering to Hit vs goku tournament battle in anime:

kkx10 ssb goku(kaioken wearing him down and pushing body too much) - 5(0.5x10)
hit last improvement - 3.5
kkx2 ssb goku - 3
beaten up ssb goku(before kaioken) - 1.5
100% ssb goku - 3
hit improvement(after taking beating up) - 2.5
100% fp hit - 2
initial ssb goku - 1
initial hit -1

This is based on Goku's use of kaioken in Saiyan saga arc, where he was new to kaioken and keep dropping power fast while fighting vegeta.

Also beerus's reaction can be easily intepreted as, damn if he is going to use it from get go against me I am good as dead, but If I attack him before he does that, he has no chance of wining, also it requires time and keep making him weaker. Also this technique is far from perfect. Lastly Goku wouldn't use it until everything else failed. Whis is right, I can beat him down. I am sure champa thinks same

The manga and the anime called for Goku to be 10x stronger than Vegeta against Hit in some shape or form and because the anime didn't make Vegeta 10x weaker than normal they made Goku 10x stronger than normal. The chart could fit with what the manga/anime was doing is if in the anime you think Vegeta is half of Goku's power.

[Marlowe89]

I'd also like to mention that, despite the "two base theory" being a widely scorned notion here, the anime has partly confirmed it:

In Episode 22, base Vegeta specifically notes that he feels stronger after having obtained God ki ("Is this God ki? The pressure feels immense!") and he was only able to convert his own ki into God ki when "not letting the ki leak after having raised it". This is also mentioned in Episode 20, when Whis informs Goku and Vegeta that if they do that then no one would be able to sense their ki.

But even as recently as the current arc, Trunks mentions on multiple occasions that he can sense Goku's ki and Vegeta's ki during instances when they're not using Super Saiyan Blue. Trunks also notes that he can't sense Vegeta when he's using the Blue form. Black even calls them the "warriors garbed in God ki" only after they transform into SSB, and there are plenty of other moments before the current arc where characters mention that they can sense base Goku and Vegeta.

So the anime itself directly presents us with scenes where we can clearly see base Goku/Vegeta with God ki (Episode 22) and also base Goku/Vegeta without God ki even long after they've already learned how to obtain it. But we already know from Episode 22 that God ki is more powerful than regular ki, which means that their base forms would be stronger when using God ki even though it would seem that they rarely use it without transforming.

[Lord Beerus]

So much for Raging Future Trunks. Goku Black and Zamasu pretty much no sold most of his assault.

[Bullza]

The episode didn't too tell us too much that we couldn't have already assumed last week.

However between this episode and the preview for the next episode and just in general it does look like Trunks surpassed Goku and Vegeta. Unfortunately they didn't explain what it was so I bet we'll have to wait until it becomes a thing in Dragon Ball Heroes or something.

Looks like Vegeta is going back into the ROSAT (wasn't it only supposed to be a two time thing?) so he should be stronger. Being as Goku doesn't look to be going in the ROSAT then maybe it'll allow Vegeta to catch back up to Goku after his rage boost.

[Marlowe89]

So much for Raging Future Trunks. Goku Black and Zamasu pretty much no sold most of his assault.

Yeah, judging from his performance I wouldn't say he's much (if any) stronger than Goku really.

[Doctor.]

So much for Raging Future Trunks. Goku Black and Zamasu pretty much no sold most of his assault.

Yeah, judging from his performance I wouldn't say he's much (if any) stronger than Goku really.

Makes sense, since the form looks more like a pseudo-SSB than anything.

[Bullza]

Chances are Trunks' new form is just something Toei came up with and we'll never see or hear from it again after this saga is over like the SSJB Kaioken. It'll become a video game thing.

I do wonder what they're going to do with Trunks in the manga though. Is he not going to fight Black at all? Is he just going to fight Zamasu whose just Supreme Kai+ level? Is he gonna get angry and become a Super Saiyan 3 that'll make him on par with Super Saiyan Blue? Will he just become a Super Saiyan Blue?

Surely it'll be very different from the anime.

[ShinTenshin]

So with the summary we know that Black and Zamasu don't care AT ALL for Trunks.
Black says Goku will return in the future soon so it's pretty clear he wait for him and just play with Trunks.

I was the only one to say Vegeta was the one to defeat Goku Black, seems like i was right !
Oh ! And at the end of the preview Trunks has EXACTLY the same appearance when he fight Goku in the chapter 15 !!

Finally, it's not a new form !

[Zamasu55]

I'd also like to mention that, despite the "two base theory" being a widely scorned notion here, the anime has partly confirmed it:

In Episode 22, base Vegeta specifically notes that he feels stronger after having obtained God ki ("Is this God ki? The pressure feels immense!") and he was only able to convert his own ki into God ki when "not letting the ki leak after having raised it". This is also mentioned in Episode 20, when Whis informs Goku and Vegeta that if they do that then no one would be able to sense their ki.

But even as recently as the current arc, Trunks mentions on multiple occasions that he can sense Goku's ki and Vegeta's ki during instances when they're not using Super Saiyan Blue. Trunks also notes that he can't sense Vegeta when he's using the Blue form. Black even calls them the "warriors garbed in God ki" only after they transform into SSB, and there are plenty of other moments before the current arc where characters mention that they can sense base Goku and Vegeta.

So the anime itself directly presents us with scenes where we can clearly see base Goku/Vegeta with God ki (Episode 22) and also base Goku/Vegeta without God ki even long after they've already learned how to obtain it. But we already know from Episode 22 that God ki is more powerful than regular ki, which means that their base forms would be stronger when using God ki even though it would seem that they rarely use it without transforming.

The two base theory is absolutely correct.