"Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minus")

[auspx]

Unread postby RandomGuy96 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:21 pm
So? He's still both above the saiyan standard AND had a tranquil heart awaken by intense rage (at least EOB Bardock, where he was reflecting on how he couldn't save his team). That's all it takes to become a SS.

Then it makes no sense whatsoever that Vegeta wasn't able to turn SSJ when Freeza was beating him to death. I mean he could still be overpowered by Freeza and still lose the battle. Perhaps Freeza would need to power up to 100% to defeat him. But if that's all it takes for the SSJ transformation then Vegeta absolutely should have been able to do it during that battle. Freeza was his mortal enemy, Freeza humiliated him in front of an Earthling, a Namekian, and a half-breed child. Freeza made him cry. How could Vegeta not feel "intense rage" at that moment?

EoB would have made a lot more sense if Bardock wasn't in it in the first place. If Trunks somehow went back in time, perhaps due to a time machine malfunction, to Planet Vegeta and saved those little aliens (BTW how are they able to survive in the 10x Earth's gravity?) from Chilled... it wouldn't be so bad. Bardock's SSJ transformation isn't the only ridiculous plot twist in EoB. The fact that the explosion of Planet Vegeta somehow took him, and only him, back in time when he was surrounded by Freeza's goons is another one. That's why I see EoB as nothing more than Bardock's fantasy as he is dying in the blast. If that's all it is, then it doesn't matter if it's canon or not.

[RandomGuy96]

Then it makes no sense whatsoever that Vegeta wasn't able to turn SSJ when Freeza was beating him to death. I mean he could still be overpowered by Freeza and still lose the battle. Perhaps Freeza would need to power up to 100% to defeat him. But if that's all it takes for the SSJ transformation then Vegeta absolutely should have been able to do it during that battle. Freeza was his mortal enemy, Freeza humiliated him in front of an Earthling, a Namekian, and a half-breed child. Freeza made him cry. How could Vegeta not feel "intense rage" at that moment?

The series already addressed this:

Chapter: 319 (DBZ 125), P9.4-5, P10.4-7
Goku: “I’m a Saiyan who came from Earth to defeat you…A legendary warrior whose tranquil heart has been awakened through intense rage…Super Saiyan Son Goku!”
Freeza: “I…I knew it…It seems you really are a Super Saiyan…Fu-fuffuffuh…So your tranquil heart was awakened through intense rage, huh?...I see, so that’s why Vegeta could never become one, no matter how hard he tried…”

[auspx]

Then it makes no sense whatsoever that Vegeta wasn't able to turn SSJ when Freeza was beating him to death. I mean he could still be overpowered by Freeza and still lose the battle. Perhaps Freeza would need to power up to 100% to defeat him. But if that's all it takes for the SSJ transformation then Vegeta absolutely should have been able to do it during that battle. Freeza was his mortal enemy, Freeza humiliated him in front of an Earthling, a Namekian, and a half-breed child. Freeza made him cry. How could Vegeta not feel "intense rage" at that moment?

The series already addressed this:

Chapter: 319 (DBZ 125), P9.4-5, P10.4-7
Goku: “I’m a Saiyan who came from Earth to defeat you…A legendary warrior whose tranquil heart has been awakened through intense rage…Super Saiyan Son Goku!”
Freeza: “I…I knew it…It seems you really are a Super Saiyan…Fu-fuffuffuh…So your tranquil heart was awakened through intense rage, huh?...I see, so that’s why Vegeta could never become one, no matter how hard he tried…”

And what makes Freeza an expert on whether or not Vegeta had a "tranquil heart"?

Of course the real reason why Vegeta didn't turn SSJ during that battle is because AT didn't want him to. Goku was supposed to turn SSJ, defeat Freeza, and that would be the end of DragonBall. Didn't Toriyama say many times that he wanted to end DragonBall after Goku defeated Freeza? The whole "tranquil heart awakened by intense rage" was BS anyway as we saw even kid Trunks and Goten turn SSJ in the Majin Buu saga. But at least the kids were much, much stronger than Bardock when they did it.

[RandomGuy96]

And what makes Freeza an expert on whether or not Vegeta had a "tranquil heart"?

Of course the real reason why Vegeta didn't turn SSJ during that battle is because AT didn't want him to. Goku was supposed to turn SSJ, defeat Freeza, and that would be the end of DragonBall. Didn't Toriyama say many times that he wanted to end DragonBall after Goku defeated Freeza? The whole "tranquil heart awakened by intense rage" was BS anyway as we saw even kid Trunks and Goten turn SSJ in the Majin Buu saga. But at least the kids were much, much stronger than Bardock when they did it.

I didn't write the manga, but that's how Toriyama justified it via his characters.

No, that's a myth. Toriyama never ever stated he wanted to end the series after Freeza. In fact, not even a week later, he revealed that both Goku and Freeza had survived, sooooo...

According to the guidebooks, it's because as tail-less hybrids they're just more adept with the form.

[medama_oyaji]

Oh, Dragon Ball Minus! What have you done to my beloved Jaco thread!?

[Hellspawn28]

People are blaming AT on this, but not Toei. Toei are the ones that have been known to create shit up then gets retcon later on.

[RandomGuy96]

So hey, there's this from the site's synopsis of this chapter:

Back on Planet Vegeta, Bardock makes his way along the settlement as the narration box explains there are only a few thousand Saiyans

Nice to see we actually got a number put on this. That'd always been by estimate as well.

It also makes you wonder: why is it that every 'major' race except for humans, monster-type Earthlings, and animal-type Earthlings (who collectively number 6 billion according to Neko Majin) seem to be so few in number?

Namekians: 107

Saiyans: 3,000-5,000

Freeza-Clan: >107 (not enough to even be considered a "race")

[Flame Dragon]

People are blaming AT on this, but not Toei. Toei are the ones that have been known to create shit up then gets retcon later on.

The Bardock special has been here for a lot of years, there was no need for a retcon. It only creates confusion.
The blame goes on Toriyama because he wrote DB- the way it is, while he could have easily written it differently to not cause inconcistencies with both the Bardock special and the anime.
You could say creating the backstory of the Saiyans wasn't Toei job, but they already did it. And Toriyama incorporated it in the manga canon. So Toriyama should have collaborated with Toei since the damage was already done, if not it just creates a buttload of confusion for no reason.

And this is a huge retcon, since every scene of the anime, movies, and videogames showed Goku as an infant. So people by now are familiar with the fact, you can't just change it for no good reason without creating confusion.

[hleV]

People are blaming AT on this, but not Toei. Toei are the ones that have been known to create shit up then gets retcon later on.

The Bardock special has been here for a lot of years, there was no need for a retcon. It only creates confusion.

AT didn't retcon Bardock Special, because Bardock Special was never a part of the story that Toriyama created to begin with, despite what you want to believe.

[Flame Dragon]

People are blaming AT on this, but not Toei. Toei are the ones that have been known to create shit up then gets retcon later on.

The Bardock special has been here for a lot of years, there was no need for a retcon. It only creates confusion.

AT didn't retcon Bardock Special, because Bardock Special was never a part of the story that Toriyama created to begin with, despite what you want to believe.

Then he is stupid, frankly.
Sorry to say it, but if it never was part of the story then he shouldn't acknowledged it, nor referenced it on his manga, nor allow Episode of Bardock to be made manga wise.

By acknowledging it and referencing it, he made it part of the timeline, and he had to deal with it, instead of alienating his fanbase for no reason other than "Superman origin story was cool, totally gonna do something like it!"

[Blade]

So hey, there's this from the site's synopsis of this chapter:

Back on Planet Vegeta, Bardock makes his way along the settlement as the narration box explains there are only a few thousand Saiyans

Nice to see we actually got a number put on this. That'd always been by estimate as well.

It also makes you wonder: why is it that every 'major' race except for humans, monster-type Earthlings, and animal-type Earthlings (who collectively number 6 billion according to Neko Majin) seem to be so few in number?

Namekians: 107

Saiyans: 3,000-5,000

Freeza-Clan: >107 (not enough to even be considered a "race")

Because it makes them easy to keep track of and plot for.

Could you imagine if the Namekian race were any larger, how their temporary re-location on Earth would have panned out?

I think for the Saiyans it's fairly self explanatory - if there were billions of them, then it's hard to explain how they wiped out by Freeza in one fell swoop, given that we know as a species they regularly engaged in battle across the galaxy.

As for Freeza's race, despite the fact that Toriyama stated that Freeza and his farther were mutants, and not-so-typical examples of their species, the prospect of a large population of them running around would open the possibility of there being many more mutants like Freeza, in turn threatening to reduce his in-universe significance as an incredibly powerful freak turned galactic overlord. I mean, even if King Cold was a one-in-a-million example, if Freeza's species numbered in the billions, there'd be thousands equally as strong as him.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

This is the first time fans are complaining that Toriyama ignored the anime, even though this has happened plenty of times in the anime, and even in BoG & DBO, and they loved these changes. I personally find this hilarious.

[Flame Dragon]

This is the first time fans are complaining that Toriyama ignored the anime, even though this has happened plenty of times in the anime, and even in BoG & DBO, and they loved these changes. I personally find this hilarious.

The fans complain because Toriyama trolled everyone. By acknowledging the Bardock special and referencing it, he treated it as canon to the story.
I would have been fine with it if Toriyama never said anything about Bardock and created his own thing. But what he did was basically a retcon to something that was considered canon for years because Toriyama himself referenced it.

It also doesn't help that the Bardock special was looking much more original and better written, than DB- which seems a huge Superman ripoff.

Basically the same deal with George Lucas saying "the Force was never spiritual but made with Deus Ex Machinas called midthclorians".
Giant retcon that accomplished nothing backstory wise and only created confusion and pissed loyal fans off.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The fans complain because Toriyama trolled everyone. By acknowledging the Bardock special and referencing it, he treated it as canon to the story.

No, he didn't. He only took the "Goku's father Bardock was the last Saiyan that rebelled against Freeza before destroying Planet Vegeta" part. Things like baby Goku, Bardock's team, and Bardock's visions never made it to the manga, so they never happened. He didn't retcon anything in the manga, 3-year-old Goku is still technically a baby (he was even referred as a baby in DB-), Goku was still sent to destroy the Earth (new fact - he was also sent there to save him), Bardock suspected that Freeza was planing something, explaining his rebellion against Freeza in the manga, and Freeza still destroyed the planet when Vegeta wasn't there (apparently, even if Vegeta had returned, Freeza would had sent him elsewhere, but Nappa & Raditz would probably die if he had returned, if Nappa was with Vegeta & Raditz in DB-).

It also doesn't help that the Bardock special was looking much more original and better written, than DB- which seems a huge Superman ripoff.

What does this have to do with canon at all?

[garnetjester]

But Toriyama didn't draw the whole Bardock special in his manga, he just threw in a couple of panels for good measure, he said he really liked the special because it was something dark that he would've never written, that should be enough to imply that while he appreciated the work Toei did, he probably would've handled it differently, and this is how he decided he would approach the subject on his own terms.

[Luso Saiyan]

The main problem with Bardock's SSJ transformation in EoB is that it contradicts almost everything we saw in the manga. Akira Toriyama said it himself, Bardock was a low-class warrior and he isn't even able to become a mid-class warrior. Bardock is weaker than Nappa.

Since when being a low-class makes him unable to turn into a SSJ? And what exactly was contradicted in the manga? Wasn't Goku's transformation similar to it? Or when Gohan transformation into a SSJ2? They saw friends being killed and in their build up rage, transformed.

If it's possible for Bardock to turn SSJ just because he got his ass kicked by Chilled,

But he didn't transform "just because he got his ass kicked".

I don't know if there's some "requirement" for the SSJ transformation but it can't be simply because "he got beaten up and he got really mad about it" which is what we saw in EoB.

That's not what I saw in EoB. I saw Bardock unable to save Berry, which made him recall all his friends he failed to save and whishing he had more power back then.

He only took the "Goku's father Bardock was the last Saiyan that rebelled against Freeza before destroying Planet Vegeta" part. Things like baby Goku, Bardock's team, and Bardock's visions never made it to the manga, so they never happened.

Why would he put the whole special in the manga? There's no logic place for it except Bardock's last stand which Freeza would remember. Toriyama could have ignored the special entirely, but he liked it enough to incorporate (the parts that made sense) it into the manga, thus making it something more than "just some filler that Toei made up".

Nobody should question the right of Toriyama to tell his version of the story, but I don't think it's fair to judge people for having accepted something that Toriyama also accepted for more than 20 years.

[goku the krump dancer]

"They have plenty of food and the humans there aren't worth much."

What does this line mean? Is it

A. Bardock sent Goku to happy land so he could be friends with the humans.

B. He didn't care whether the humans were sparred or destroyed just as long as his son was safe from Freeza.

Toriyama completely ignoring anime exclusive material is nothing new. Trunks The Side Story and History of Trunks are almost completely different from one another and those came out during the series' original run. So I have no real problem with him redoing "Bardock the Father of Goku". Bardock goes from having premonitions to just having good hunches . Just like in the Trunks special Gohan was trying to turn him into a Super Saiyan while in the manga he already was one.

Goku looking at Bardock and Gi-Ne through the Space pod was very Superman-ish and that I didnt like.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

"They have plenty of food and the humans there aren't worth much."

What does this line mean? Is it

A. Bardock sent Goku to happy land so he could be friends with the humans.

B. He didn't care whether the humans were sparred or destroyed just as long as his son was safe from Freeza.

You're missing a portion of the quote:

• "The planet has plenty of food, but the humans and natural resources there aren't worth much."

It means Kakarotto won't go hungry and Freeza is unlikely to find him because Earth shouldn't have anything worth drawing his attention. It isn't worth mining, selling or annexing the inhabitants.

[Marco Polo]

So, about Freeza knowing about Super Saiyan God... do you guys think that Freeza and Beerus personally knew each other? I remember that being a theory when Battle of Gods was released (or even Freeza outright being a servant or agent of Beerus), but the film never directly confirmed or refuted it.

[Luso Saiyan]

Toriyama completely ignoring anime exclusive material is nothing new.

Indeed, and that's why the Bardock special stood apart (until now).