Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

So how strong is Base Gotenks and Super Saiyan Gotenks before entering the ROSAT then?

Is there any evidence that puts SSJ Gotenks above or below SSJ3 Goku at all! I know this has always been one of the most debated power level things in the series so I'd guess not.

Goku stated Gotenks would be stronger than him and he didn't account for SS2 or 3 when he said that. In fact, he was pleasantly surprised when the brats fusion got to SS3 period.

[Bullza]

But was he being truthful there? He said at the time that he couldn't beat Buu and he wanted to leave it up the new generation but in truth he could have actually have beaten Buu.

[ekrolo2]

But was he being truthful there? He said at the time that he couldn't beat Buu and he wanted to leave it up the new generation but in truth he could have actually have beaten Buu.

If he doesn't think Gotenks has, at the very least a decent shot of becoming stronger than him, then he's king shit head of the cosmos undisputably. He doesn't know that Gohan is alive, much less that he'll get strong enough to beat Boo when he makes this decision. I mean, he's a colossal bastard for not trying to win already but its considerably worse if he secretly thinks Gotenks can't win period.

[DanielSSJ]

So how strong is Base Gotenks and Super Saiyan Gotenks before entering the ROSAT then?

Is there any evidence that puts SSJ Gotenks above or below SSJ3 Goku at all! I know this has always been one of the most debated power level things in the series so I'd guess not.

There really isn't any evidence in the manga itself about Gotenks' power outside of his fight with Evil Boo at SS3. When he comes around, there's the usual smattering of glowing compliments about his strength, but they're all vague statements like "What amazing power!". There really isn't any direct comparison between him and anyone else, except for when Gotenks first successfully fuses, he says that he'll kill Boo without Super Saiyan. He is then immediately proven wrong, so I take anything that Gotenks himself says with a grain of salt.

In the Daizenshuu 7, Gotenks is implied to have only surpassed Vegeta after training in the Room of Spirit and Time, which would mean before that, Gotenks is less than twice as strong as Goku and Vegeta, in equal forms.

Personally, I don't think Gotenks ever reaches the same height as SS3 Goku without going SS3 himself, and that his regular Super Saiyan form caps out at around Fat Boo's level of power.

If he doesn't think Gotenks has, at the very least a decent shot of becoming stronger than him, then he's king shit head of the cosmos undisputably. He doesn't know that Gohan is alive, much less that he'll get strong enough to beat Boo when he makes this decision. I mean, he's a colossal bastard for not trying to win already but its considerably worse if he secretly thinks Gotenks can't win period.

Based on my numbers, a SS2 Gotenks would've been at least on the same level as Fat Boo, so maybe Goku was counting on him unlocking that form through training or rage or something. Anyways, I think Goku predicted that Gotenks would've been as strong as him or at least strong enough to beat Fat Boo. It just took a little longer for that prediction to come true than he expected.

[TheUltimateNinja]

So how strong is Base Gotenks and Super Saiyan Gotenks before entering the ROSAT then?

Is there any evidence that puts SSJ Gotenks above or below SSJ3 Goku at all! I know this has always been one of the most debated power level things in the series so I'd guess not.

Nothing concrete putting him above SSJ3 Goku besides unsubstantiated statements, however the Daizenshuu places his SSJ at SSJ2 tier as it says he did not surpass Vegeta and co. until after he entered the RoSAT. Goku says Gotenks should be able to beat Buu and at that time he wasn't counting on Gotenks obtaining SSJ3, so some use that as proof that Gotenks was already SSJ3 level when he was born but I don't really buy it, it's too weak an argument. He could have expected them to achieve SSJ2 or get much stronger through training.

But does he still around half of Goku? He can be evern less of that, since Goku trained better than Vegeta, on the Other World.

No, he closed the gap a bit. Goku said that he'd already hit his limit in the Cell Arc, so he didn't improve that much. Because of this Vegeta was able to catch up, he's definitely more than 50% of Goku by the Buu Arc, I'd put him at 80%.

[Bullza]

If Pre ROSAT Super Saiyan Gotenks was weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta then why would Goku have so much faith in them? He only gave them 2 days to prepare for their fight.

Then there'd the oddity that surrounds Post ROSAT Base Gotenks where

1. Piccolo says they've powered up hugely and last time he saw them they were Super Saiyan. You could say he was only comparing that Base Gotenks to the previous Base Gotenks but...

2. Piccolo also said that Base Gotenks could succeed against Super Buu and that wasn't taking Super Saiyan into account because he was surprised shortly after when Gotenks did transform.

So that kinda implies Post ROSAT Base Gotenks > Pre ROSAT Super Saiyan Gotenks

But that would also mean that Base Goten and Trunks would have to be stronger than their previous Super Saiyan selves and that's kind of impossible because Base Goku was stronger but he's weaker than Frieza.

3. Gotenks was previously stomped by Buu so should know how strong he is but was confident enough to still attack Buu in Base form. He even said that it should have levelled Buu.

So I don't know what to believe. If Post ROSAT Base Gotenks was actually stronger than Pre ROSAT Super Saiyan Gotenks then I suppose I could see why it probably have been weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta but that just creates other problems.

[TheUltimateNinja]

If Pre ROSAT Super Saiyan Gotenks was weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta then why would Goku have so much faith in them? He only gave them 2 days to prepare for their fight.

Then there'd the oddity that surrounds Post ROSAT Base Gotenks where

1. Piccolo says they've powered up hugely and last time he saw them they were Super Saiyan. You could say he was only comparing that Base Gotenks to the previous Base Gotenks but...

2. Piccolo also said that Base Gotenks could succeed against Super Buu and that wasn't taking Super Saiyan into account because he was surprised shortly after when Gotenks did transform.

So that kinda implies Post ROSAT Base Gotenks > Pre ROSAT Super Saiyan Gotenks

But that would also mean that Base Goten and Trunks would have to be stronger than their previous Super Saiyan selves and that's kind of impossible because Base Goku was stronger but he's weaker than Frieza.

3. Gotenks was previously stomped by Buu so should know how strong he is but was confident enough to still attack Buu in Base form. He even said that it should have levelled Buu.

So I don't know what to believe. If Post ROSAT Base Gotenks was actually stronger than Pre ROSAT Super Saiyan Gotenks then I suppose I could see why it probably have been weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta but that just creates other problems.

Gotenks is a dumbass, so his power estimations are worthless.

Piccolo was likely surprised by them turning SSJ because until then they were getting their ass kicked in base, so he figured that if they could go SSJ they would have already done so.

Fusion doesn't have a consistent multiplier, and it's implied its power can be increased by mastering it, so perhaps the reason Goku had so much faith in the kids was because the Metamorans who showed him the dance had a huge multiplier due to mastery and compatibility, but Goten and Trunks were unable to achieve this due their inexperience. This also explains Gotenks powering up in the time chamber despite Goten and Trunks themselves not improving too much, by repeatedly practicing the fusion dance they were able to increase its power.

Anyway, BoG somewhat implies that Goku closed the gap between himself and Gotenks so Gotenks can't have been leagues above him or Goku would never get anywhere close to his level.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So how strong is Base Gotenks and Super Saiyan Gotenks before entering the ROSAT then?

Is there any evidence that puts SSJ Gotenks above or below SSJ3 Goku at all! I know this has always been one of the most debated power level things in the series so I'd guess not.

I think here you can use your own headcannon, Gotenks never did anything useful before entering on Rosat. I have his base a bit weaker than Semi Perfect Cell, and his SSJ form a bit weaker than SSJ2 Goku.

[DanielSSJ]

If Pre ROSAT Super Saiyan Gotenks was weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta then why would Goku have so much faith in them? He only gave them 2 days to prepare for their fight.

Because Goku never met or saw Gotenks before? Because Gotenks previously didn't even exist until Goku had already returned to the afterlife? Goku made a prediction, and that prediction happened to be a little off. Besides, even if Gotenks wasn't quite as strong as Goku had hoped, he knew that they could still use the Room of Spirit and Time if they had to, which is exactly what had happened.

Then there'd the oddity that surrounds Post ROSAT Base Gotenks where

1. Piccolo says they've powered up hugely and last time he saw them they were Super Saiyan. You could say he was only comparing that Base Gotenks to the previous Base Gotenks but...

2. Piccolo also said that Base Gotenks could succeed against Super Buu and that wasn't taking Super Saiyan into account because he was surprised shortly after when Gotenks did transform.

So that kinda implies Post ROSAT Base Gotenks > Pre ROSAT Super Saiyan Gotenks

As far as Piccolo saying that, since Gotenks had powered up a lot, that he might stand a chance against Evil Boo (a statement he quickly retracted), we know that in some cases, skilled fighters can sense that a person is holding back, and sometimes they can even guess by how much. Ginyu gives a pretty darn accurate prediction of Goku's strength (Ginyu says Goku maxes out at 85K, Goku's actual max was 90K), despite the former not being able to sense Ki and not using his scouter, and the latter holding back. Later, after Cell reaches his Perfect form, Kuririn is able to accurately tell that both him and Trunks are a lot stronger than Vegeta, despite neither of them displaying such strength outright.
So maybe Piccolo was able to sense that Gotenks had a lot more power in reserves, and just incorrectly assumed he had access to it in his base form, when it was actually his Super Saiyan forms. Or Piccolo was desperate and overly optimistic. There's no need for Gotenks to have gotten 50x stronger in a week while training in 30 minute sessions AND having to take 30 minute breaks in between. Saying that he even doubled his strength in that span of time is a bit far-fetched, but what can you do?

But that would also mean that Base Goten and Trunks would have to be stronger than their previous Super Saiyan selves and that's kind of impossible because Base Goku was stronger but he's weaker than Frieza.

Personally, I don't believe Fusion has a consistent power boost to it. While the kids definitely got stronger themselves, I think that a good portion of Gotenks' power increase (outside of SS3) can from them practicing the Dance a whole lot. Its like in any rhythm game like Dance Dance Revolution or Guitar Hero, there's a difference between scores like "good", "excellent", and "perfect", right? All of them indicate a successful move, but the difference in the high score will be huge. Same thing here. Goten and Trunks were able to get more power out of the ritual by being better at the dance. (Note: I have only played DDR and Guitar Hero like three times total in my entire life, so this metaphor may be B.S.)
Numbers wise, what was a 50% boost for Goten and Trunks individually, was a 100% boost for Gotenks.

3. Gotenks was previously stomped by Buu so should know how strong he is but was confident enough to still attack Buu in Base form. He even said that it should have levelled Buu.

So I don't know what to believe. If Post ROSAT Base Gotenks was actually stronger than Pre ROSAT Super Saiyan Gotenks then I suppose I could see why it probably have been weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta but that just creates other problems.

As for base Gotenks challenging Evil Boo in his base form after the training in the first place, pre-RoSaT Gotenks still roughly knew how strong Fat Boo was to have beat SS2 Vegeta and withstood SS3 Goku, and he still challenged Boo in his base form. He's a cocky immature brat who holds back until the last minute because it would be COOL! He's not an accurate source of evidence as far as I'm concerned.

Gotenks' whole shtick is that he doesn't live up to the hype that surrounds him, so that it's funny when he gets his comeuppance for being overly cocky.

[LightBing]

So how strong is Base Gotenks and Super Saiyan Gotenks before entering the ROSAT then?

Is there any evidence that puts SSJ Gotenks above or below SSJ3 Goku at all! I know this has always been one of the most debated power level things in the series so I'd guess not.

He can't be too far off from SSJ3 Goku, it wouldn't make sense for Goku to risk it if they topped at SSJ2 level. For Goku to guess they could defeat Majin Boo it means the Fusion is something that can be calculated. He needed to have some idea, a range to back up what he said.
Gotenks own boosting isn't reliable, due to the character personality and it's gag status. Even Piccolo saying Gotenks might defeat Evil Boo is followed by a facepalm, clearly a set up for the joke.

This subtle exchange makes me believe Goku overestimated the kids enough for them to be weaker than Majin Boo Pre-RoSaT:

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”

Numbers for reference:
Gotenks - 1.175.000.000
SSJ - 4.700.000.000
After RoSaT - 1.475.000.000
SSJ - 5.900.000.000
SSJ3 - 11.800.000.000

Goku - SSJ3 - 5.200.000.000

[Bullza]

I was thinking of going with SSJ Gotenks (Post Rosat) > SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Gotenks (Pre Rosat) myself. I was wondering if there was anything to maybe discredit that though.

Goku didn't seem to think he stood any chance against Buu. Gotenks did at least severely f*ck him up a bit.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Dragón Ball Manga Power levels!!

POWER MULTIPLIERS

Oozaru – 10x
Super Saiyan – 50x
Super Saiyan Grade 2 – 100x
Super Saiyan Grade 3 – 250x
Super Saiyan 2 – 500x
Super Saiyan 3 – 2,000x

Raditz Arc

Son Gohan – 1
Enraged – 1,307

Son Goku – 416
Piccolo – 408
Tenshinhan – 250
Kuririn – 206
Yamcha – 177
Chaozu – 150
Yajirobe – 145
Muten Roshi – 139

Kaio of the North – 4,500
Enma Daio – 2,500
Kami of Earth – 330
Mr. Popo – 290

Raditz – 1,200
Oozaru – 12,000

Saiyan Arc


Son Goku – 8,000
Kaio-Ken x2 – 16,000
Kaio-Ken x3 – 24,000
Kaio-Ken x4 – 32,000

Son Gohan – 1,307
Enraged – 2,800
Oozaru – 13,070

Piccolo – 2,500
Tenshinhan – 1,800
Kuririn – 1,500
Yamcha – 1,400
Chaozu – 1,000
Yajirobe – 800

Saibaimen – 1,200

Nappa – 7,500
Oozaru – 75,000

Vegeta – 18,000
Oozaru – 180,000


Namek Arc


Son Goku – 90,000
Kaio-Ken x2 – 180,000
Kaio-Ken x10 – 900,000

Vegeta – 24,000
Post-recovery – 30,000
Post-recovery 2 – 50,000

Son Gohan – 1,500
Power Unlocked – 20,000
Post-recovery – 30,000

Kuririn – 1,500
Power Unlocked – 18,000

Dende – 200
Power Unlocked – 1,000

Muri – 1,200
Young Namekians – 3,000
Nail – 42,000

Freeza – 530,000
Freeza Soldiers – 500 - 2,500
Kwi – 18,000
Dodoria – 22,000

Zarbon – 23,000
Transformed – 29,900

Gurd – 10,000
Recoome – 40,000
Butta – 40,000
Jheese – 40,000
Captain Ginyu – 120,000


Freeza Arc


Son Goku – 10,000,000
Kaio-Ken x10 – 100,000,000
Kaio-Ken x20 – 200,000,000
Super Saiyan – 500,000,000

Vegeta – 500,000
Post-recovery – 7,500,000

Son Gohan – 200,000
Enraged – 1,000,000
Post-recovery – 1,000,000
Enraged – 3,000,000

Piccolo – 250,000
Merged with Nail – 2,000,000

Kuririn – 18,000

Freeza – 530,000
Second Form – 1,200,000
Power-Up 1 – 1,500,000
Power-Up 2 – 1,800,000
Third Form – 3,600,000
True Form – 12,000,000
50% Power – 240,000,000
70% Power – 336,000,000
100% Power – 480,000,000

Mecha Freeza Arc


Son Goku – 20,000,000
Super Saiyan – 1,000,000,000

Trunks – 18,000,000
Super Saiyan – 900,000,000

Vegeta – 15,000,000
Piccolo – 8,000,000
Son Gohan – 1,000,000
Tenshinhan – 40,000
Kuririn – 20,000
Yamcha – 15,000
Chaozu – 8,000

King Cold – 400,000,000
Mecha Freeza – 540,000,000

Future Arc I


Future Gohan – 16,000,000
Super Saiyan – 800,000,000

Kid Trunks – 6,000,000
Super Saiyan – 300,000,000

Future Android 18 – 3,000,000,000
Future Android 17 – 3,200,000,000


Artificial Human Arc


Son Goku – 40,000,000
Super Saiyan – 2,000,000,000

Vegeta – 42,000,000
Super Saiyan – 2,100,000,000
Post-RoSaT – 320,000,000
Super Saiyan – 16,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 2 – 32,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 3 – 80,000,000,000

Trunks – 36,000,000
Super Saiyan – 1,800,000,000
Post-RoSaT – 300,000,000
Super Saiyan – 15,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 2 – 30,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 3 – 75,000,000,000

Piccolo – 1,600,000,000
Super Namekian – 3,200,000,000

Gohan – 30,000,000
Tenshinhan – 80,000
Kuririn – 40,000
Yamcha – 30,000
Chaozu – 16,000

Android 19 – 600,000,000
Post-absorption – 1,200,000,000

Android 20 – 500,000,000
Post-absorption – 1,000,000,000

Android 18 – 3,000,000,000
Android 17 – 3,200,000,000
Android 16 – 8,000,000,000

Cell – 2,500,000,000
Humans Absorbed – 8,000,000,000
Second Form – 16,000,000,000
Full Power – 24,000,000,000
Perfect Form – 30,000,000,000
Power Up – 50,000,000,000
Bulked Up – 100,000,000,000

Cell Games Arc

Son Gohan – 5,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 250,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 2,500,000,000,000
Injured – 1,200,000,000,000

Son Goku – 4,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 200,000,000,000

Vegeta – 3,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 150,000,000,000

Trunks – 2,880,000,000
Super Saiyan – 144,000,000,000

Piccolo – 120,000,000,000
Android 16 – 8,000,000,000
Mister Satan – 8

Cell Juniors – 160,000,000,000

Perfect Cell – 210,000,000,000
Power Up – 250,000,000,000
Full power – 500,000,000,000
Bulked Up – 1,000,000,000,000
"Super Perfect" – 1,500,000,000,000

Future Arc II

Trunks – 2,880,000,000
Super Saiyan – 144,000,000,000
3 Years Later – 4,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 200,000,000,000

Future Android 18 – 3,000,000,000
Future Android 17 – 3,200,000,000
Cell – 8,000,000,000


Buu Arc


Son Goku – 6,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 300,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 3,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 – 12,000,000,000,000

Vegeta – 4,800,000,000
Super Saiyan – 240,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 2,400,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 [Majin boost] – 3,000,000,000,000

Son Gohan – 4,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 200,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 2,000,000,000,000
Ultimate Warrior – 600,000,000,000,000

Son Goten – 3,600,000,000
Super Saiyan – 180,000,000,000
Post-RoSaT – 4,500,000,000
Super Saiyan – 225,000,000,000

Trunks – 3,700,000,000
Super Saiyan – 185,000,000,000
Post-RoSaT – 4,500,000,000
Super Saiyan – 225,000,000,000

Gotenks – 200,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 10,000,000,000,000
Post-RoSaT – 250,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 12,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 125,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 – 500,000,000,000,000

Vegetto – 600,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 30,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 300,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 – 1,200,000,000,000,000,000

Piccolo – 180,000,000,000
Android 18 – 3,000,000,000
Tenshinhan – 100,000
Chaozu – 20,000
Dende – 3,000
Spopovich – 15
Yamu – 15
Mr. Satan – 7
Videl – 10

Grand Kaioshin - 10,000,000,000,000
Kaioshin of the South - 15,000,000,000,000
Kaioshin of the North - 600,000,000,000
Kaioshin of the West - 400,000,000,000

Rou Kaioshin – 1,000,000
Kibito – 1,000,000,000
Kaioshin of the East - 200,000,000,000
Merged – 10,000,000,000,000

Babidi – 10
Pui Pui – 200,000
Yakon – 10,000,000,000
Dabra – 1,500,000,000,000

Pure Boo – 12,000,000,000,000
Buff Boo – 450,000,000,000,000
Majin Boo – 10,000,000,000,000
Evil Boo – 6,000,000,000,000
Good Boo – 4,000,000,000,000
Super Boo – 400,000,000,000,000
+ Gotenks and Piccolo – 900,180,000,000,000
+ Piccolo, Son Goten and Trunks – 400,630,000,000,000
+ Son Gohan, Piccolo, Son Goten and Trunks – 1,000,630,000,000,000
+ Piccolo – 400,180,000,000,000

28th Tenkaichi Budokai Arc


Son Goku – 12,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 600,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 6,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 – 24,000,000,000,000

Vegeta – 12,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 600,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 6,000,000,000,000

Son Goten – 6,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 300,000,000,000

Trunks – 6,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 300,000,000,000

Oob – 11,500,000,000
Pan – 800,000,000
Son Gohan – 600,000,000,000,000
Piccolo – 250,000,000,000

Mister Boo – 4,000,000,000,000
Mister Satan – 6

[Noah]

All right, according to Daizenshuu, Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta after his trip in RoSaT.

But they mean Base Vegeta or Vegeta as a whole? It could mean that Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) was weaker than Freeza?

[dragonball0900]

I was reading the Gotenks discussion above. And I was left with the impression that the Daizenshuu said that Gotenks didn't surpass Majin Vegeta until the ROSAT training, and I always thought that Gotenks was stronger than SSJ3 already before the ROSAT! I'm probably changing my opinion on SSJ Gotenks pre ROSAT power if that's the case.

Also, about Base Gotenks' strenght. Nobody will agree me here, I'm sure, but I just don't trust on the X50 multiplier of SSJ anymore. That was on the Frieza saga when Goku first transformed, but after the hard training and new transformation they've got (and the discussions about Base saiyans vs Piccolo in the Buu Saga, as well as Babidi's kilis), I'm just going to keep it to a X5 multiplier for everything to fit and make sense.

[DanielSSJ]

All right, according to Daizenshuu, Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta after his trip in RoSaT.

But they mean Base Vegeta or Vegeta as a whole? It could mean that Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) was weaker than Freeza?

They most likely mean Vegeta as a whole.

[ekrolo2]

All right, according to Daizenshuu, Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta after his trip in RoSaT.

But they mean Base Vegeta or Vegeta as a whole? It could mean that Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) was weaker than Freeza?

They most likely mean Vegeta as a whole.

Do they specify which Gotenks? Cause Base Gotenks being stronger than Majin Vegeta is actually pretty damn strong, a lot stronger than what I usually peg him for.

[dragonball0900]

All right, according to Daizenshuu, Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta after his trip in RoSaT.

But they mean Base Vegeta or Vegeta as a whole? It could mean that Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) was weaker than Freeza?

They most likely mean Vegeta as a whole.

Do they specify which Gotenks? Cause Base Gotenks being stronger than Majin Vegeta is actually pretty damn strong, a lot stronger than what I usually peg him for.

I'm sure it's SSJ Gotenks. The strongest form of Gotenks at the time has to be the one that surpasses Majin Vegeta.

[DanielSSJ]

I'm sure it's SSJ Gotenks. The strongest form of Gotenks at the time has to be the one that surpasses Majin Vegeta.

Heck, if you wanted to go the opposite way, you could say that Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta with Super Saiyan 3 (and Super Saiyan 2, for the one panel that he had it.)

[dragonball0900]

That could work too. Although I don't know if it works better that way. Here's my power scaling of the numbers:

SSJ Gotenks (pre-ROSAT) = 1.5

Majin Vegeta/SSJ2 Goku = 2

SSJ Gotenks = 3

SSJ2 Gotenks = 6

SSJ3 Goku = 8

Super Buu = 20

SSJ3 Gotenks = 24

To be honest. I'd rather want to be a gap like this between SSJ3 Goku and Gotenks, and the reason it's because Goku was afraitd to fight Super Buu, who's nearly as equal as Gotenks. Even with Vegeta on his side, they wouldn't have a chance.

[TheUltimateNinja]

That could work too. Although I don't know if it works better that way. Here's my power scaling of the numbers:

SSJ Gotenks (pre-ROSAT) = 1.5

Majin Vegeta/SSJ2 Goku = 2

SSJ Gotenks = 3

SSJ2 Gotenks = 6

SSJ3 Goku = 8

Super Buu = 20

SSJ3 Gotenks = 24

To be honest. I'd rather want to be a gap like this between SSJ3 Goku and Gotenks, and the reason it's because Goku was afraitd to fight Super Buu, who's nearly as equal as Gotenks. Even with Vegeta on his side, they wouldn't have a chance.

Why do you have Gotenks so far above Super Buu?